Help (i know...) on heroic Ultraxion

[Deleted]

Hey all,
we are struggling for a while now with heroic modes. We did down heroic Morchok but are stuck on heroic Yor'sahj and Heroic Ultraxion. On Yor'sahj we are not getting much further then second wave of adds so we decided to give Ultraxion a try. We are there now for our third night (doing him for about 2 hours before we move further on normal) but we arent getting there by a long shot.
We do know how it works tactics wise but for some reason we are doing something wrong.
Yesterday we had a nice composition and was
prot tank * 2 (no 4 set bonus both)
holy pally and disc priest
shadow priest, mm hunter, enh shaman, ret pally, aff lock and combat rogue.

Soaking order was rogue + hunter, tank 1 + ret pally, tank 2 + SP.
Soaking went ok. Everybody survived it except on try one the hunter died due to a mistake and on another try our pally came out on low health and was killed right after due to not going in with full health.

If u guys can be so kind to look at some logs. Im no expert in WOL and i only just started to use them:
worldoflogs.com/reports/8f6q3yelfihe9o9q/ ( cant post links yet)

I know we arent pushing dps to the limits (no prepotting, i could use KS more often etc). Reason for my low dps is that i am a new raidleader and watching all kinda stuff and talking to people is hurting my dps (i know, bad excuse ^^). And i know people will say something about the "not maximizing" our dps yet, and thats fine. We wanna learn

Besides some stupid wipes (people dont hitting the heroic will button), i feel we have a problem on the healer side. Can anyone confirm? And if thats the case what can they do to improve it?

Thanks in advance for any help! Appreciate it alot.

[Deleted]

The mechanics on heroic Ultrax are not any different from the mechanics of normal mode, and those were very simple to begin with. That entire fight is 100% all about maximizing DPS and HPS, there is no movement or though to it other than pressing a button. That is what you are wiping to: not pressing your buttons right.

I looked at your 2 longest logs and I see deaths from the following:

1) Tanks taunting too early and then getting meleed for 100k+ due to the debuff they get from Fading Light
2) Tanks taunting too late and people dying due to it
3) People of all sorts dying to Fading Light or Hour of Twilight

Pretty much all basic mistakes. I don't think anyone on these forums will be able to give you any tips to help with that, you just have to click the button when you're suppose to click the button. You know what you have to do, you've done it many times on normal - you just need to do it on heroic. DPS click Fading Light ~1 second before it kills them. Tanks taunt off each other as soon as the other tank gets Fading Light. Click your buttons and get a real attempt that lasts more than 2 minutes, only then will we be able to see how your DPS/HPS measure up. For the record you need about ~40k more raid DPS than what you have in those logs to beat the soft enrage of 5:30 on this fight.

I can't tell if you have a healing problem without seeing a log that lasts more than 3 minutes. Healing doesn't get even remotely hard until the 4 min mark, when you get there then we'll see. However just a few things to keep in mind for healing while you're doing it:
- Pally should alternate HR's targets. Do NOT spam it on the same person
- Pally should have blue buff, red and green can be go either. I prefer the priest to red if Disc or green if Holy
- Holy Radiance and Prayer of Healing/Divine Aegis should be by far the most used heals

[Maelstrom51]

Have your holy pally stop using single target heals. If he's not using Holy Radiance/LoD, he's meleeing for extra mana. If someone needs more healing your priest can take care of it. Also give your holy pally red buff.

Also, the first 45 seconds you can let your holy pally solo heal it while the priest smite/holy fire spams for some extra damage to the boss.

When he gets red buff he can go back to solo healing it for a while, and the priest smiting.

[jbandhisguitar]

1) Tanks taunting too early and then getting meleed for 100k+ due to the debuff they get from Fading Light
2) Tanks taunting too late and people dying due to it
3) People of all sorts dying to Fading Light or Hour of Twilight

Basically this. Literally if one person in your raid dies. The whole raid dies with it. If you lose that high dps for just 3 seconds before the b-rez. You still probably wont make the enrage timer because of it. Hitting your button is a very easy mechanic. No one can mess it up though otherwise you won't get the kill. Your raid leader should be calling out when to press their "Buttons" besides fading light. Dps need to focus purely on rotations and because of that they often zone out and forget about that simple button mechanic.

Keep practicing.

[Deleted]

Thanks Ravegage (and the other people by the time i wrote this...) for the quick and clear answer.

I do have a question though about the tanks. U say that the tanks are getting hit for over 100K+ if they taunt too early because of the debuff. Doesnt the debuff only last like 5 seconds? So if they taunt too early that shouldnt be much of a problem? Unless they taunt back within that 5 second period if they have the debuff?
And u also say that if a tank taunts too late that people are dying due to it. Do u mean the other tank dies then cause of the 100% increased damage he is taken? Cause at attempt 1 our SP dies due to being meleed by the boss but our tanks were still alive. And we had that problem last week also. So why is dps getting meleed by the boss?

The way i understand it its like this:
1)tank a starts, tank a gets fading light, tank b taunts right away. If tank b is too late, tank a will get hit very hard and probably dies.
2)tank a starts, tank b taunts to early, tank b gets fading light, tank a taunts again. This is not the way it supposed to happen but what could go wrong here?

I dont see where a dps would get meleed by the boss. So imo he would only be meleed when tanks have a threat issue and dps is higher on the threatmeter than a tank.

Edit: i do call out the names of the people that are staying out. I also put a raidwarning out with the names. So the dps and healers know who are staying out to soak.

[Icebear]

Thanks Ravegage (and the other people by the time i wrote this...) for the quick and clear answer.

I do have a question though about the tanks. U say that the tanks are getting hit for over 100K+ if they taunt too early because of the debuff. Doesnt the debuff only last like 5 seconds? So if they taunt too early that shouldnt be much of a problem? Unless they taunt back within that 5 second period if they have the debuff?
And u also say that if a tank taunts too late that people are dying due to it. Do u mean the other tank dies then cause of the 100% increased damage he is taken? Cause at attempt 1 our SP dies due to being meleed by the boss but our tanks were still alive. And we had that problem last week also. So why is dps getting meleed by the boss?

The way i understand it its like this:
1)tank a starts, tank a gets fading light, tank b taunts right away. If tank b is too late, tank a will get hit very hard and probably dies.
2)tank a starts, tank b taunts to early, tank b gets fading light, tank a taunts again. This is not the way it supposed to happen but what could go wrong here?

I dont see where a dps would get meleed by the boss. So imo he would only be meleed when tanks have a threat issue and dps is higher on the threatmeter than a tank.

Edit: i do call out the names of the people that are staying out. I also put a raidwarning out with the names. So the dps and healers know who are staying out to soak.

He means the debuff you get after Fading Light (no threat generation, and +100k dmg taken? (HC)).

[Deleted]

Ok, so if tank A gets the fading light, tank B taunts and tank A taunts back within that 5 seconds again.

[Conveyorofdeath]

If Tank A gets fading light and uses Heroic Will before Tank B has taunted for the first time, Ultraxion will target the second in threat, and in this case it would be one of the Dps

[Deleted]

The way the Fading Light works on heroic is that after you get back from the other realm you are vulnerable for a few seconds. http://www.wowhead.com/spell=110078 <- That is the spell, although I'm not sure if there's an error since I thought it was a 5 second vulnerability, not 10. Either way, you are vulnerable after you get back from the other realm.

The way it should go is like this:

Tank A gets Fading Light
Tank B taunts
Tank A clicks button
Tank B gets Fading Light
Tank A taunts
Tank B clicks button

If the order on any of this is interrupted you risk deaths. There are two common mistakes that cause deaths.

Mistake 1:

Tank A gets Fading Light
Tank A clicks button
Tank B taunts

^ Notice that the order is changed, in between line 1 and 2 there will be a moment where a DPS/Heal might die

Mistake 2:

Tank A gets Fading Light
Tank B taunts
Tank A clicks button
Tank A taunts back before tank B has his own Fading Light

^ This will cause tank A to get hit for 100k+

[Vasilisa]

Also as mentioned above tank should wait for debuff to disappear before taunting.

Your tanks should be doing way more dps as well (not to mention dmg dealers). For this fight I dropped prot t13 and used 2t12 (391) for dmg and 2t13 ret for bonus holy power.

One tip that might be usefull is that Trall's buff refreshed all tanking cds. So you are free to use all defensive cds at the beginning of the fight. This allowed us to use to Bloodlusts: healers used "the button" 2 sec before pull, I pulled and our mage used Time Warp for dps. I used my panic buttons and safely survived these few secs without healers. Thanks to that strategy our healers don't have "Sated" debuff so our resto shaman uses Boodlust towards more or less at 4:30 when healing becomes a lot more instense.

[Deleted]

Aaaahh, perfectly clear now how that works. Thanks for all the comments!

And we do use the bloodlust trick. Thanks for the heads up.

I posted your comments on my guildforum and the holy pally says that dps are taking too much avoidable damage. And that is why he is using single heals. But is there so much avoidable damage? Cause i cant think of any except the failing on the heroic will button and the "wrong" taunting on fading light. But in both cases that would cause someone to die.

[Flashforcash]

just buy fast looking at your log, pretty much every dps need to be able to pull 32K+ in dps, and non is over 30k. Either you all need to massive improve in the dps meter (still without failing at the button and rotation) or you need it to get nerfed to prolly around 10-20%. You really cant expect to beat a boss like ultraxion with that low dps tbh, all of you need to be 110% into your class rotation, reforged, gems, spec etc so be able to pull 105% of what you can, else you prolly wont kill him for a long time.

EDIT: your tanks is pretty low too, even as a tank you can do decent dps, our tanks is doing 20k+ both of them, and i see tanks doing 25+ on that fight. So every1 in your raid need to take it to the next lvl

[Deleted]

my guild is going to try Ultraxion for the first time next week so i would like to know will we have enough dps to do it, here is our last normal kill
worldoflogs.com/reports/jui5iumbqq94uiqm/sum/damageDone/?s=7077&e=7368

also few notes:
this kill was without BL although used we still had sated from hagara
no dps used any pots
rogue got 2nd stage daggers after the kill
ret got Gurthalak to replace his 397 mace from Blackhorn,he also has 377 atm so hopefully he'll get few new pieces before our attempt
shaman will be healing so there will 1 less low dps
druid will go moonkin, he will do 30k+
will add a fury warrior who usually does 31-32k

So our setup will be:

Blood DK, Prot Pala

Disc, Resto Shaman


Destro Lock, Ret Pala, Boomkin, SV Hunter, Combat Rogue, Fury Warrior

Sry about the link, just rgistered so i cant post links yet

[Nobleshield]

The debuff seems to fall off before the other tank gets Fading Light, so tell them to wait until the other guy gets it and then taunt. I normally would wait until the 4s mark (i.e. just before the other tank hits Heroic Will) but since the debuff can last from 2s to 10s (and one pull our Hunter swore hers STARTED at 1s giving her no time to click, might have been lag though) I've started just taunting the moment I get the Fading Light DBM warning for the other tank, and vice versa.

The fight is VERY unforgiving although the mechanics are the same other than additional HoT soakers and extra people who get Fading. Make sure nobody has lag or they're doomed (IMO very terrible mechanics to have, since lag is a real issue that can't always be avoided).

Looking at your last attempt, your DPS needs to step it up a little bit, make sure they are prepotting and everything (again, lag or high latency really screws you on this fight). Your second Prot Warrior could do ~18k or so by using some DPS trinkets and making sure to use DPS food/flasks/pots. I was hovering around 15.9k until I tried that (I believe I was using Essence of Eternal Flame, and made a special macro that uses it + shield block + shield slam since it's up more frequently), and on our kill I did ~18.6k so like a 2k improvement.

Speaking just as a Prot Warrior, your warrior Corto should have WAY higher uptime on Shield Block. He only used it three times during that attempt? It has like a 15s cooldown on Ultraxion thanks to Thrall (I highly recommend using Power Auras or some similar addon to let you know when it's off cooldown. It's a godsend! I have mine put a big Shield Block icon on my screen when it's up so I know to press it). Rend should be kept going as long as possible, I miss a refresh here and there and have to manually reapply it but his is way too low (to compare: My rend was up approximately 3:44, and should have been up longer than that but towards the end of the fight I started to forget it. His was up only 36s for the 2m duration of the fight). Having one or both Warriors use Shattering Throw (I forget if they stack with each other, might have to overlap) when you get to the final moments of the fight really helps with the DPS too (obviously do it when the other tank has taunted!)

Here's our kill log for comparison: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/g...?s=7678&e=7990

Good luck!

[Deleted]

I posted your comments on my guildforum and the holy pally says that dps are taking too much avoidable damage. And that is why he is using single heals. But is there so much avoidable damage? Cause i cant think of any except the failing on the heroic will button and the "wrong" taunting on fading light. But in both cases that would cause someone to die.

...what?

There is no avoidable damage on this fight. If someone fucks up they die, if they don't fuck up they will take all the damage the way it's normally taken. The only way to mitigate damage on this fight is to use cooldowns, which the tanks should be doing as often as possible. The DPS shouldn't because that means wasting GCDs that are better spent on DPSing.

With that said, your Pally isn't using that many single target heals. A few here and there are ok to top people off after an Hour of Twilight or if a tank gets low. The Priest should be doing the majority of the tank healing and topping people off but its ok for the Pally to do a little, not quite as much as he is though he can still cut down on them.

---------- Post added 2012-02-20 at 04:38 AM ----------

my guild is going to try Ultraxion for the first time next week so i would like to know will we have enough dps to do it, here is our last normal kill
worldoflogs.com/reports/jui5iumbqq94uiqm/sum/damageDone/?s=7077&e=7368

In that log you are doing 180k raid DPS. You need around 240k to beat the soft enrage on Ultraxion (5:30) or 220k to beat the hard enrage (6:00) assuming your healers can keep you alive that long.

Either way you have to make up for an extra 40-60k DPS out of somewhere.

[Deleted]

Here's our kill log for comparison:

Thanks, i see that your dps dont have a big gap between dps and dps(e). But we do. Our range is somewhere between 3 and 7k.

Whats the difference between those 2 numbers?

A little offtopic i know...

[Deleted]

In that log you are doing 180k raid DPS. You need around 240k to beat the soft enrage on Ultraxion (5:30) or 220k to beat the hard enrage (6:00) assuming your healers can keep you alive that long.

Either way you have to make up for an extra 40-60k DPS out of somewhere.

1 more dps +30k
replacing shaman with better dps +10k
bloodlust + pots, priest smiting, tanks reforging some exp and hit

think we can pull 240k+

[Deleted]

Thanks, i see that your dps dont have a big gap between dps and dps(e). But we do. Our range is somewhere between 3 and 7k.

Whats the difference between those 2 numbers?

A little offtopic i know...

DPS(e) is effective DPS, meaning DPS over the course of the entire fight as opposed to just when that player was alive. Since your DPSers died early a lot their effective DPS went down while they were dead, that's why its a lot lower.

1 more dps +30k
replacing shaman with better dps +10k
bloodlust + pots, priest smiting, tanks reforging some exp and hit

think we can pull 240k+

Probably yes. It's not quite as easy as it might sound but in theory yes, you should be able to do it. You just have to maintain that damage without dying to anything stupid (Fading Light). If you can click buttons you should be fine.

[Deleted]

Probably yes. It's not quite as easy as it might sound but in theory yes, you should be able to do it. You just have to maintain that damage without dying to anything stupid (Fading Light). If you can click buttons you should be fine.

Yeah i know, there will probably be few wipes till people get it all, then as we push longer into the fight we'll see if we have enough for a kill.

[Deleted]

just buy fast looking at your log, pretty much every dps need to be able to pull 32K+ in dps, and non is over 30k. Either you all need to massive improve in the dps meter (still without failing at the button and rotation) or you need it to get nerfed to prolly around 10-20%. You really cant expect to beat a boss like ultraxion with that low dps tbh, all of you need to be 110% into your class rotation, reforged, gems, spec etc so be able to pull 105% of what you can, else you prolly wont kill him for a long time.

EDIT: your tanks is pretty low too, even as a tank you can do decent dps, our tanks is doing 20k+ both of them, and i see tanks doing 25+ on that fight. So every1 in your raid need to take it to the next lvl

Although i do know we need to improve on the dps part including tanks, its not as bad as u say. Except try 1, most of the dpsers are above 30k. Only our hunter had some problems in getting her dps way above 30k and is hoovering a bit below 30k.