MoP pvp gear changes don't make sense

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

I think it's currently insanely easy to gear up for both PvP and PvE.

yo stop right there, the avg player has a conquest cap of 1650 which limits you to 1 piece of gear weekly, what do u mean its insanely easy? yeah u can get full ruthless in one av weekend but with ruthless gear u wont get past 1500 rating...

[Demetrion]

It makes perfect sense.

Discourages the usage of PVE gear in arena (legendary, trinkets).

[Graven2]

yo stop right there, the avg player has a conquest cap of 1650 which limits you to 1 piece of gear weekly, what do u mean its insanely easy? yeah u can get full ruthless in one av weekend but with ruthless gear u wont get past 1500 rating...

Yeah, but that's fine. I'm talking about entry level PvP and PvE. Just like if you had full 378 PvE gear you wouldn't do well in heroics.

The point I made is that if you have entry level PvP gear (ilvl 390) or entry level PvE gear (ilvl 378) you can do entry level stuff of PvP or PvE easily. I used my priest as an example as even though he's in full PvP gear, I can still do 5mans and LFR. So, if Blizzard's goal is to make it so I can do MORE PvE stuff with entry level PvP gear, that would only mean that they want me to be able to compete in normal raids, which in turn means that it will be impossible to balance for the guys going in with PvE gear (how can entry level PvE and PvP gear perform on the same level in a PvE raid envirnment?).

[skrump]

I've been asking myself the same question all week and it seems to me that blizzard is retarded.

They have 2 goals
easing the transition into pvp VS making sure pve gear is useless in pvp

And of course the only way to suceed in both goals is to introduce another tier of pvp gear onvender that is bought with gold instead of honor
(or craftable with easily acquired mats) so the crafters can't sell them with a huge markup.

[Deathgoose]

The PVP triangle has always been gear vs skill vs class/spec balance. At different points of the game, certain legs have been a bit more heavily weighted, but it has always been these 3 things.

All of this time, effort, and confusion around PvP gear, when they should just force every class/spec to wear a standard set of pre-made gear that is the same for everyone, entirely removing the gear issue from the PvP.

That would make PvP only about skill (player controlled) and class/spec balance (blizz controlled)

Instead, Blizz will be going through more and more elaborate chicanery to balance PvE vs PvP gear between the two, and we'll be going along for the ride.

---------- Post added 2012-03-02 at 03:03 PM ----------

I've been asking myself the same question all week and it seems to me that blizzard is retarded.

They have 2 goals
easing the transition into pvp VS making sure pve gear is useless in pvp

And of course the only way to suceed in both goals is to introduce another tier of pvp gear onvender that is bought with gold instead of honor
(or craftable with easily acquired mats) so the crafters can't sell them with a huge markup.

As a predominantly PvE player that only dabbles in PvP, I have to say I am sick of the last two expansions making the entry level 80 or 85 crafted blues be shitty resilience gear that is horrible and worthless for PvE. I would care less if I had a proper PvE with no resilience counterpart, but only resilience gear? F-DAT!

I much prefer the late BC model, where they added some blue quality PvP sets that could be bought from the various dungeon factions, and only required you to be honored (Which doesn't take a significant commitment, unlike trying to hit exalted with all of them)

[Graven2]

The PVP triangle has always been gear vs skill vs class/spec balance. At different points of the game, certain legs have been a bit more heavily weighted, but it has always been these 3 things.

All of this time, effort, and confusion around PvP gear, when they should just force every class/spec to wear a standard set of pre-made gear that is the same for everyone, entirely removing the gear issue from the PvP.

That would make PvP only about skill (player controlled) and class/spec balance (blizz controlled)

Instead, Blizz will be going through more and more elaborate chicanery to balance PvE vs PvP gear between the two, and we'll be going along for the ride.

As largely a PvE player, that would be great. It would allow me to use PvP as a side game more efficiently. I wouldn't need to farm gear to be competative -- it would work much like an RTS and be purely based on skill.

However, there are a ton of people that play this game for PvP and enjoy advancing their characters THROUGH PvP. If you remove gear gain in PvP, you remove the incentive to PvP for a lot of people. And while that's frustrating for PvE players and PvP purists, it's just the way it is. And hell, if someone suggested that they do the same for PvE, I'd be opposed, as I want to have a path of improving my character.

[Jasyn]

As largely a PvE player, that would be great. It would allow me to use PvP as a side game more efficiently. I wouldn't need to farm gear to be competative -- it would work much like an RTS and be purely based on skill.

However, there are a ton of people that play this game for PvP and enjoy advancing their characters THROUGH PvP. If you remove gear gain in PvP, you remove the incentive to PvP for a lot of people. And while that's frustrating for PvE players and PvP purists, it's just the way it is. And hell, if someone suggested that they do the same for PvE, I'd be opposed, as I want to have a path of improving my character.

The reward for PVP could just be different looking gear and titles.

If you're better than other players, you don't need more/newer gear to continue being better.

[Graven2]

The reward for PVP could just be different looking gear and titles.

If you're better than other players, you don't need more/newer gear to continue being better.

Agreed, but I'm talking about the casual PvPers, not the upper tier. If there's no way of advancing your character in ilvl through PvP, lots of people would rage.

Having said that, I understand that it's a ridiculous point since blizzard introduced resiliance, which essentailly makes it so the ilvls of PvP gear are irrelivant in PvE anyway. The entire system is inconsistant and flawed, but I think Blizzard understands that, which is why they've tweaked it so much each expansion.

[Maerad]

Let's see...

1. PvP Stuff will have a lower ilvl then PvE Gear
2. There will be a specific system (Attack/Defence PvP) that only activates in pvp situations. That means, with full PVP Gear you won't be able to perform in raids as well as you do now with full pvp gear. And with full pve gear you won't be able to perform in pvp as well as before.

Right now in BG/RBG are some DS/H-DS or legendary equipped ppl, doing fine. They can't survive as long as someone in PVP gear, but they do a shitload of DPS and burst. Someone in Full-PVP gear gets less dmg, but lacks in dps because of his resilence.

With the new system, you can't bring in PVE equipped ppl, because they will lack too much ATK/DEF. Like the season going on and a new raid with new eq comes out.

And the 30% reduction from base resi will help at the start, because the burst is a bit flattened. Still you will need some pvp gear to get shit done.

Another positive is, that blizzard has a "PVP only stat" - so if they see that the burst goes through the roof in PVP, they won't need to nerf the eq, they just up the resi a bit.

This is the "PVP ONLY STAT" that everyone was waiting for. If you want to PVP were skill is one of the more important things, you can do so. You get the same chances like any other with pvp gear and won't be owned by pvp players, that just simply dps you down.

Btw. maybe this change won't be as strong in arena games, but the BG and RBG will improve greatly. Oh - and did I mention worldpvp >:]

[fireuup20]

Perhaps they mean that this PvP power will only be on weapons, and/or trinkets. It would effectively prevent the use of PvE weaps/trinks in pvp because the %damage against players would be worth more (if balanced correctly), and these same weaps/trinks would be useless in PvE.

Then PvP defense would only be on armor pieces, with a starting point of 30% w/o PvP gear. This could work if the armor could give you a max of say 10-15% more defense over that of baseline, making it that you still want it for PvP and not for PvE.

[Deleted]

EXACTLY. Other than helping to balance pve gear that is incredibly powerful (vial of shadows anyone?) This change basically just tries to complicate the system we have now, only...it's the SAME THING. I think I would be ok with it if they had came out and stated "this is to help with balancing pvp and pve" rather than stating that it helps bridge the gap between the two so to speak. It doesn't do that in any way. the only thing it will REALLY change is how long it takes to kill one another in a bg at launch, before anyone has any pvp gear, which, again, I don't really see much of a point in.

I DO see this helping in low level pvp though, which is something I have felt needed a look at for a long time. It's not pvp. It's "who has the most hunters."

---------- Post added 2012-03-02 at 06:30 AM ----------

Due to the fact that these new pvp stat weights do not affect item budget as they do currently, and although it will still not be as effective as pve gear due to lower values, it actually will be more viable to use pvp gear in pve than it is now. THAT change I do understand. Right now you take a piece that has 300 crit and 300 resil. once this change happens you will have a piece that has 200 crit, 200 haste, and then have some amt of the new pvp stats as well, whereas a similar piece of pve gear would just have 300 crit, and 300 haste.

A bit off topic, but if they follow through with this number squish, HOPEFULLY (and I pray this happens) it will take a lot more skill to kill someone w/o a healer behind them, because you CANT just global them. Judging by the amt of self heals most, if not all classes are getting, I see it going down that route. Being able to rely on yourself rather than a healer AS MUCH, because, lets face it, healers right now are basically gods. They can take more damage than a resil geared (with the exception of maybe blood dk's, but that's a completely different issue) tanks. it's way too out of hand.

Actually that piece would have 300 crit and 300 of another secondary stat. The more of a single stat on an item the less stat points overall it will have, look at some green items on the AH; you'll see of strength may have 300 str but of the tiger will have 200 str and 200 agi for example.

[Fenixdown]

I really don't get why Greg Street says he wants to ease the transition between PvE and PvP so players can do both, then he says how they're trying to make PvE and PvP gear useless in the opposite area.

Useless in the high end is what I think he's trying to say, like legendaries being used to mow people down to 2200 and heroic mode trinkets being used rather than PvP trinkets because they offer a much better damage alternative.

Entry level right now is far worse than high end, so this change is attempting to make entry easier and high end harder if you're using the wrong type of gear, so to speak.

[Yoshimiko]

I think this is to help people who have never pvped before to be able to get gear, without just being 1shot and being a complete hinderance to their team, while keeping PVE gear out of PVP.

[Graven2]

Perhaps they mean that this PvP power will only be on weapons, and/or trinkets. It would effectively prevent the use of PvE weaps/trinks in pvp because the %damage against players would be worth more (if balanced correctly), and these same weaps/trinks would be useless in PvE.

Then PvP defense would only be on armor pieces, with a starting point of 30% w/o PvP gear. This could work if the armor could give you a max of say 10-15% more defense over that of baseline, making it that you still want it for PvP and not for PvE.

That actually makes a lot more sense. I think you're right.

[Asher13]

Alright. I am going to use only what the blue post says, and avoid as much speculation as possible, and break this down into the most simple terms I can, because it seems things are swaying in an odd direction. Here are the facts.

"We are renaming this stat to “Defense (PvP)” or possibly “PvP Defense.” All players will have 30% base Defense, the same way all characters have some base Stamina."

We do not know what exactly 30% defense equals in actual damage reduction. That is certain, but the number does NOT matter.

"PvP gear will have Defense on it, as well as a new stat, “Power (PvP).” Power increases the damage you do to other players as well as the healing you do to other players in PvP situations."

So power. Basically, it is going to be armor penetration for resilience. I'm not even going to get into the healing aspect, because that....is just going to be weird.
Now, using the same system, which is percentages mind you, that wow has used for 7 years, and i don't see why they would change that now (or how for that matter)
this is the scenario. Mind you, this is in particular regard to this quote

"The goal of this change is to make it easier for a PvP player to participate in PvE, or for a PvE player to get started in PvP. "

Player A: ZERO pvp gear. Nada. Zip. None. 30% defense. Zero Power.
Player B: Full, current season pvp gear (even just honor gear) 30% defense PLUS however much the gear adds on top. PLUS however much power this new gear has.

Now here is the thing. Regardless of the actual reduction that 30% defense gives, it will be SOME type of value. So for simplicity sake, I will say it is 30% reduction. Now we look at Player B, who has this new stat "power" on his gear. This stat makes him do MORE damage to Player A. The guy could have 99% reduction. IT DOES NOT MATTER. Power makes you do MORE damage. Following so far??

Now this was, and still is, my initial concern. Will we see a point that Player B can get enough of this "power" stat, to increase his damage EQUAL to however much reduction this baseline 30% gives a player, or in an even worse situation, BEYOND this 30% baseline reduction?

Lets just take a moment and remember what the number values were around cata launch. If Player A is in Full PVE gear, and Player B is in say, bloodthirsty, or hell even vicious gear, then the difference between the two is not that high. Hell if I remember correctly, having 3k resilience (which for arguments sake we will say equals 30% player received damage reduction) was simply amazing! but NOW in full current tier gear, we see up to 45% or higher reduction. A 15% increase!

My point is this. I feel as if this will work in the beginning of the expansion. Now, before i go any further, I did not say a word about ENTRY LEVEL PVP (i.E. ZERO RESILIENCE) Ok. I feel this will work in the beginning of the expansion simply due to the fact that everyone is on an even playing field. A month or two into the expansion ,and the hardcore pvpers will have acquired basically a full pvp set, while some of the slower players are still working towards it. The problem is that it WILL NOT STAY THAT WAY. Ask yourself, what happens as an expansion goes on? Answer: We become more powerful with better gear.

So what is going to happen is that,at the end of the expansion, and I get bored of my characters and decide to level a new toon to pvp with, when I hit that level 90 cap, I will be in the same exact position that everyone was at a year ago, but the MAJORITY of the player base is MILES ahead.

In conclusion, this new "system" that they have unveiled does NOT do ANYTHING to achieve blizzards (long term) goal of easing pve players into pvp. We will be in the Same. Exact. Situation that we are in today. It will just have an extra stat value, thus making it slightly more complex.

Once again, we cannot say for sure how it will exactly play out until we have some actual numbers to play with, but the CONCEPT without blizzard showing us some kind of numbers to show us how they are wanting this idea to play out is absolutely pointless. Please, if I can make my concern any easier to understand, let me know. I simply am having a hard time seeing how people don't understand my point.

[Damerflinn]

I can understand the reasoning behind wanting to make it easier to be competitive for people just getting into PvP, I had a priest that I wanted to gear out for PvP as a healer, but it was so frustrating because of the lack of PvP gear and I gave up. Didn't really bother me too much though because I had just done it on my Rogue and just didn't feel like doing it again.

On the other hand. I HATE that they are doing this from a PvE standpoint. The kind of people who wear PvP gear into dungeons, and show up to pug raid gear checks in PvP gear are BAD. Not just because they are in PvP gear, but because it's really different to play PvE then PvP. In many ways it's easier, but it's much more about constant DPS then it is burst like PvP, and not standing in shit, and people don't understand that, aside from the more skilled Players in my experience most of the people who want to PvE in PvP gear suck at PvE and this will just take away our easy mode of getting rid of them by telling them to go get PvE gear, now they will say they don't need to because of these changes and that's BS.

And the don't really make much sense either as people have pointed out, but meh, it doesn't seem too out of whack, it just seems like at max gear, it will be like playing with PvE gear, since we'll all have the same resistance and the same boost to power.

[Synche]

Everyone seems to have lost their main POINT.

The point is to make ENTRY LEVEL PVP EASIER. Ofcourse there will be those in Arena / High level PVP gear that will steamroll everyone, but since everyone will have a base % of PVP damage reduction it will make it easier to get into.

It has nothing to do with higher levels of play, infact it beings more balance to higher level gameplay as PVP power / Defence effectively cancel each other out and it will be more based on Skill in a fight then just those with more PVP gear = victory.

Reading about the change and actually playing with them are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

Coming from someone who just started PVP'ing on a DK, without Resilience I am pretty much useless, albeit gearing up is fast enough for the effort put in, within 2 days without buying any crafted PVP gear I have like 1200 resilience or so which took like 10 games or so to get.

However that is also why I am going to like this change, as it will make it so that beginner PVP'ers have a bit more chance to feel useful.

[Asher13]

I have a question for you. Do you know people, that are full pvp gear (4k+resil) that say something along the lines of "i won't do normal randoms because I just don't thin it is fun to pwn noobs all day, so i only do RBG's and arenas because it's a challenge"? I know these people are out there. Well...i think they are at least. Even if they are however, there are hundreds of people for every one of these kinds of players that say "hey guys lets get a couple of us in a grp and go into a random bg to see how high of a kdr we can get." They don't need the gear in any way. They do it just to absolutely destroy low geared players who are actually there to gear up.

Granted, these types of players can be on both teams in the same game, but if you tell me that when you go into a BG and you see a player barely peaking at 100k hp, you just ignore them because they are an easy kill, you are a god damn liar.

[Stanton Biston]

God. The amount of fail and wrong in this thread is astounding.

PvP Power only has to increase the damage of a player such that a full conquest geared character does more damage than a full heroic geared character.

By today's gearing and ilvl, it means making up the difference of 6 ilvls and the set bonus. 10% bonus damage might be all it takes.

[Trendz]

I honestly don't know what to think about it all at the moment.