[MoP Balance] MoP Balance Discussion Thread

[Kritkin]

Am i understanding thus correctly? That if these stat weights are correct, we will use all orange gems instead of straight int gems? This seems weird to me...

[craigp100]

Am i understanding thus correctly? That if these stat weights are correct, we will use all orange gems instead of straight int gems? This seems weird to me...

yes we will and it's because there won't be any +20int/+20haste etc gems instead the secondary stats will be twice that of the primary one on the gem (i.e. +20 int / +40 haste, +20int/+40 spirit, etc). This is to make other gems more "worthwhile" as opposed to stacking all red gems like in cata. :P (more or less)

[Kritkin]

Now the real question is- what do the straight secondary stat gems give? Have they released any info on epic gems?

[Keiyra]

Now the real question is- what do the straight secondary stat gems give? Have they released any info on epic gems?

Epic gems for Mop..not sure.

At lvl 90 the first round of raid level gemming is:
+160 int for a red
+80 int and +160 haste/crit/mastery for an orange
+320 haste/crit/mastery for a yellow.

(IIRC) Secondary stats will get twice the budget of primary stats
(this is true of some enchants as well - but not all currently in the beta have the 2-1 ratio, some are under budget atm)

(epic mop might be 200 for a red, vs. 400 for a yellow)

[Kritkin]

If that is indeed the case, and the stat weights i mentioned above are correct, then we will only even use orange if the socket bonus requires red. Otherwise we will gem straight yellow. I would type out the reasoning/math behind this but at work and on the cell kinda hard to do. Someone back me up on this?

---------- Post added 2012-09-06 at 04:14 PM ----------

Also what is the level 90 conversion of crit rating » crit % ?

[Juvencus]

If that is indeed the case, and the stat weights i mentioned above are correct, then we will only even use orange if the socket bonus requires red. Otherwise we will gem straight yellow. I would type out the reasoning/math behind this but at work and on the cell kinda hard to do. Someone back me up on this?

Basically this. I don't understand how they would think this will fix the "only red gems" cata had. We just shifted colours. At least with cata stat rates you could decide upon single-yellow slots. Some gear levels had haste lower than 0.5:1 Intel where you would put red and later on we had haste 0.5+:1 Intel making Reckless oranges better for those single slots. Now for MoP it seems like a no brainer.

[Kritkin]

OK so finally home so I'm able to do some math.

At 85, ~179 Crit rating= 1% Crit.
One MoP superior yellow crit = 320 Crit. (Epics of course would be more)
One MoP superior red Int = 160 Int
Crit:Int= 0.675:1
Yellow(Crit):Red(Int)= 216:160 ... Therefore Crit is better than Int as a primary stat
Currently I'm at 21.29% Crit on live
Say you replace 15 of the available sockets to yellow crit. That is 15*320=4800 rating or another 26.8% Crit
Not sure of the scaling from 85-90 and I doubt it's completely linear, but for the sake of arguement:
That's a total of 48% Crit. At least. (At 90, in the gear I have now, With MoP gems. Which I realize is not possible. That's the at least part. Even MoP leveling gear will likely have more crit. so what would we approach then? 50% 60% 70% ??? )

What does this mean?

One of your dots has a 48% chance of critting. You have two dots.
Upon critting you proc an instant starsurge.
With optimal uptime on your dots- Are we looking and proccing an insane amount of starsurges?
What does this do to our rotation? Are we going to proc our way to eclipses?
And how does this effect mastery as faster eclipses mean more eclipses per encounter and mastery buffing those eclipses?

All of this is mere speculation on the info I have available to me as I'm not in Beta. Please feel free to imput on this. I am excited to see how this plays out.

[Juvencus]

According to WoWpedia it's:

600 Crit rating = 1%
600 Mastery rating = 1%
425 Haste rating = 1%
340 Hit rating = 1%


http://www.wowpedia.org/Combat_rating_system

[Kritkin]

According to WoWpedia it's:

600 Crit rating = 1%
600 Mastery rating = 1%
425 Haste rating = 1%
340 Hit rating = 1%


http://www.wowpedia.org/Combat_rating_system

Thanks for that I've been trying to find that. I figured they would change the scaling. 8% from gems then. Good to know. Is there a way to build a lvl 90 gearset and see the stats? I'd really like to crunch some numbers

[Juvencus]

Mokoshne over at http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Gear-Listings made a gear compilation with a T14 BiS list down the list. Not sure how accurate is it though since there is at least 1 more piece with Crit you can change around, but until release it's still a nice compact list.

http://www.poddsocks.com/KokoshneMopGuide.html

For profile build : http://mop.wowhead.com/profile&new

[Kritkin]

Thanks for that. Anyone that's on beta able to say what our stats minus gear are? No gear buffs enchants etc.

[xtramuscle]

Going back to the 'blizz trying to make other gems useful again' its looking like we will favour yellow if nothing changes, stam (blue) for guardian, will feral still be after agi (in the past feral and agi users in general have always saught after agi WAY more than anything else, they scale so well..) or will they be after a secondary stat too? What about melee stat weights thy favouring strength? Either way looks good for both miners and JCs

[Starsurge87]

This is really min maxing (someone check my math as well) but i think we can squeeze a few dps points if we hold a starfall before our second Inc/nv/ca cycle and basically repeat the opener again. By not holding the starfall we do a normal eclipsed starfall which with say 50% eclipse bonus does 1.5 normal starfalls worth of dmg. If we hold one till the cast before the lunar where we pop CDs (assuming around 15% haste) we will net 30% of a non eclipsed starfall and 70% of a starfall that is buffed by Inc and nv. This results in about .3+.7*1.25*1.2*1.5 or roughly 1.875 normal starfalls. (a bit more if we also use our 2nd potion at this point) so let's say we net .4 starfalls over all. At an average base dmg per star at 10k in starting raid gear this should net us about 200-225 extra dps.

[xtramuscle]

I thought something along these lines, but never did the math. I guess alot really will depend on the fight, the amounts of dots we have up, and just how quickly we can SS proc our way in and out of eclipse. Still getting used to the shorter eclipse cycles myself. Went into BH and the whirlwind phase is a lovely time t use astral communion to get a few extra starfalls out. Not raided on beta, so not entirely sure what boss fights and transitions are like, but making the most of astral communion will play a large part in our rotation too I think.

Not sure how the pve/pvp stats will differ on low end gear, but if its not too much of a gap, considering using pvp set (AC on the move) for 5mans [not challenge modes ofc, theyre banning set bonuses for those] wtb more starfall plox!!

[Kritkin]

I'm still hoping to see some kind of graphs for the stat weight sims showing how increased crit affects mastery weights due to more/faster eclipses. Maybe won't show much in t14, but on into t14h and following tiers, these elevated numbers are definitely going to have an effect. Also AC on the move is going to be awesome for PVP, and I would love to see it make its way into PVE somehow. maybe as a 2 set on T15? One can dream. Or redesign Symbiosis on shamans to give us spiritwalkers grace. Like I said. One can dream.

/castsequence Spiritwalker's Grace, Astral Communion = Profit

---------- Post added 2012-09-09 at 12:21 AM ----------

Hi guys, I will be updating the guide for level 90. I'm not too worried about updating it for 5.0/level 85. Numbers are still being balanced so I'm going to wait another week or so before finalizing anything.

In case you're curious, however, here's the stat weights that are being tossed around for SimCraft:

Weights : Int=4.65(0.04) Spi=4.85(0.04) SP=3.55(0.04) Hit=4.85(0.04) Crit=3.12(0.04) Haste=2.51(0.04) Mastery=2.52(0.04)

PT 1. Normalizing these stat weights I came up with:

INT: 1.00
SPI: 1.04
SP: 0.76
HIT: 1.04
CRIT: 0.67
HASTE: 0.54
MAST: 0.54

PT 2. Secondary stats on MoP Gems have been increased to make them more attractive.
EX: RED- INT: 160 INT
ORANGE- INT/CRIT: 80 INT/160 CRIT
YELLOW- CRIT: 320 CRIT

PT 3. Applying these stat weights to the gems to see which is more powerful.

INT- 160*1 = 160
INT/CRIT- 80*1=80 + 160*0.67=107.2 == 187.2
CRIT- 320*0.67= 214.4

PT 4. The big WTF moment when I noticed Crit gems were possibly better than Int gems and the only time we would use a red socket/socket bonus was if it add at least a +42 Int socket bonus.


Am I correct in this? Or did I mess up somewhere?


[XPOST FROM GUIDE STICKY]

[huth]

If i recall correctly, a normal single socket bonus is 80 int already, so that's no big issue.

[Juvencus]

+180 Meta
+60 Primary
+120 Spirit
+180 Secondary
MoP socket bonuses (single slots)

[Kritkin]

+180 Meta
+60 Primary
+120 Spirit
+180 Secondary
(single slots)

Socket bonuses?

[Deleted]

I'm not sure I like crit being our best stat. Casting those 3 second starfires praying to the rng gods for crits isn't fun.

[Kritkin]

I'm not sure I like crit being our best stat. Casting those 3 second starfires praying to the rng gods for crits isn't fun.

It's not our best stat. Int is still our best stat. Crit gems will be our best gems purely because of the stat allotment increase to these gems.