[MoP Bear] Guardian Druid MoP Discussion Thread

[Raugnaut]

Since when did Thrash ticks proc Mangle off CD?

\

Mangle: In Cat Form, has no cooldown, costs energy, and generates a combo point. In Bear Form, generates 5 rage, and has a 6 second cooldown, which can also be reset by a proc from Lacerate and now Thrash ticks. Check in the blue post at the top of the page

---------- Post added 2012-03-08 at 04:13 AM ----------

Here is a quick time table for Lacerate/Thrash ticks. Assuming 0 haste for a 1.5 GCD, perfect MS

0:00- Lacerate applied
1:50-Thrash applied
3:00-Lacerate ticks
4:50-Thrash ticks
6:00-Lacerate ticks
6:50-Thrash ticks
8:50-Thrash ticks, ends.
9:00, 12:00, 15:00, Lacerate ticks. Ends at 15:00.

Now, assuming that Thrash still ticks every 2 seonds, and both have a 12% chance to proc, this is 8 chances in a 15 second time frame to proc Mangle. Now lets put in the mangle, no proc.

0:00- Mangle
1:50- Lacerate applied
3:00- Thrash applied
4:50-Lacerate ticks
5:00- Thrash ticks
6:00- Mangle CD ends, reapplied
7:00- Thrash tcks
7:50- Lacerate ticks
9:00-Thrash ticks
10:50-Lacerate ticks
12:00-Mangle off CD, reapplied
13:50, 16:50, Lacerate ticks.

Now, lets suppose between the time Mangle comes off CD the first time, and the time Mangle comes off CD the second time, Berserk proced each time, and Mangle was used as soon as it proced. at 7:00, Mangle would be used, thus triggering the 1.5 GCD. At 8:50, Mangle would be used again, and then again at 10:00, and 11:50, thus resulting in 4 mangles, should RNG be perfect and latency/reaction time not be an issue. Thus, within a 5.5 second time frame, Mangle could have been used 5 times, generating 25 rage, not counting crits.

I am going to say that rage generation is likely going to change in MoP, otherwise, druids could solo some current raid bosses in PvE once MoP came out with some reforging.

[tangedyn]

Well we can't work out of it is worth it until we know the proc rate. Even for Lacerate, it is ambiguous as to whether the 12% stacks to 36%. At the moment we assume it does to be closer to the current value of 50% (more like 35% according to testing).

The actual maths to determine if Thrash is worth using is quite a bit more complicated. I'm working on modelling it but with a quick stab at it I can confidently say that at least for single-target it will never be worth using other than for keeping up the debuff, not without some insanely high crit chance and proc rate anyway.

[Arielle]

The actual maths to determine if Thrash is worth using is quite a bit more complicated. I'm working on modelling it but with a quick stab at it I can confidently say that at least for single-target it will never be worth using other than for keeping up the debuff, not without some insanely high crit chance and proc rate anyway.

Pretty much this since you also have to account for GCD, latency, overlapping procs, etc.

You might get at most one extra Mangle in over what you normally would with Lacerate. So for it to be worth it that Mangle has to crit or it's a net rage loss. Since RNG rage losses are not tolerable, you just won't do it.

[exochaft]

I may have missed the the part about incoming damage no longer giving rage, in which case I don't have to worry about modelling it anymore.

95% certain that there was a blue post stating that development was heavily leaning towards rage not being generated from damage taken. I haven't been checking the blue posts the last month or so, but I'm vaguely recalling it was brought up when talking about warriors. My brief search for the blue post is not yielding the post I'm thinking about, I'll keep looking.

*edit* - Best thing I could find was the Threat Level Midnight thus far. Near the bottom of the post (around the long-term goals section), specifically "If tanks generated more rage from doing damage and less from taking damage, then hitting a target becomes very important, but for mitigation, not threat management reasons." However, all the long-term goals in this post have been slated for MoP thus far, so it would make sense that we would no longer generate rage from damage taken. I still think there was a tanking-specific post that discussed resources, so I'll keep looking.

[Arielle]

Rage will no longer be generated from incoming damage, since that defeats the entire purpose of the "active mitigation" model.

99% certain this was either mentioned at Blizzcon or the live chat that was held afterwards.

[uzumati]

I remember Hearing/Seeing this also Exo and Kat just cant remember if it was Blizz Cast or a Blue in the archives. In my mind it seems they are pushing to make Hit/Exp more valuable for all tanks as they said and depending on how heavily we rely on auto attack for our rage generation will determine how much value haste will have in the equation. Until we get Alpha/Beta numbers on how much rage which attacks do and even what attacks will generate rage (seems like Mangle/Lac for rage builders and Swipe/Thrash for rage spenders with maul in the fog right now) any numbers speculated is just that... purely a guess.

[Arielle]

Swipe doesn't currently cost any Rage.

[uzumati]

Thrash doesnt either according to the latest talent calc blizz has up, but do you really think we will have free damage and only spend rage on survival? Didnt Blizz want us to have to choose between Threat and Survivability.

[Arielle]

Thrash doesnt either according to the latest talent calc blizz has up, but do you really think we will have free damage and only spend rage on survival? Didnt Blizz want us to have to choose between Threat and Survivability.

There was a blue post clarifying some of the Bear/Cat abilities sometime last month. In it, it was stated that Thrash would cost 15 Rage and it would have a chance to proc Berserk on tick.

[pFreak]

Hey.
Monks are rolling on agility, too, arent they?
So "Guardians" and Brewmasters are rolling on the same gear.
u think, we can expect Leather-Tank Gear with dodge?? :3
That would be awesome!

[Winkleslob]

Leather gear with dodge aint new bro.

We had feral druid tanks since vanilla ^^

[llandrywyn]

Leather gear with dodge aint new bro.

We had feral druid tanks since vanilla ^^

There hasn't been leather with dodge on it since BC. The itemisation was scrapped at Naxx level and, since then, bears have been getting their dodge from Agility, trinkets, rings, cloaks, necks and (since 4.0) reforging.

The return of dodge leather would be okay; but only if I understand how this new loot system they're developing works, in that winning a roll delivers you a useable item from the boss' loot table, not just a random item from the table. Otherwise, I'm personally tired of my 10 man group DEing 50% of its loot due to RNG delivering things for specs we don't have.

[Royalite]

but only if I understand how this new loot system they're developing works, in that winning a roll delivers you a useable item from the boss' loot table, not just a random item from the table. Otherwise, I'm personally tired of my 10 man group DEing 50% of its loot due to RNG delivering things for specs we don't have.

That system is for LFR only... so expect to continue to DE uselss gear in 10 mans.

[llandrywyn]

That system is for LFR only... so expect to continue to DE uselss gear in 10 mans.

If you actually read the interview, it was stated that its current implementation is LFR only, but they are looking to expanding it if it proves successful.

[pFreak]

If you actually read the interview, it was stated that its current implementation is LFR only, but they are looking to expanding it if it proves successful.

no they wont. that will not fit

[Findme]

No they are homogenizing the loot, Rogues couldn't use dodge leather gear. There will be no leather items with dodge on it. Bears and Monks who want to tank will have some mechanics which translate the stats to dodge etc.

[Raugnaut]

Weee, Beta is out, and we got ourselves a few changes! Lets take a looksie

Glyph of Fae Silence- We can finally pull casters, at a cost of having a 21 second CD on our Fairie Fire. Ima guess this will be used often in PvP- a 3 second silence on a 21 second CD is pretty powerful.

Glyph of Frenzied Regeneration- Essentially, trade a variable 30% hp regen over 6 seconds for a 40% extra healing over 6 seconds. I dont know the exact numbers on bear health and healer throughput though.

Glyph of Might of Ursoc - 20% more health increase, so 30%-50%, but it is on a 5 minute CD. I suppose this could be situationally useful. I wonder if it effects the "heal" portion, upping it to 50%? If it does, will be an amazing soloing tool in my opinion.

Glyph of Skull Bash - I believe this boosts our Skull Bash interupt duration to 8 seconds, and gives it a 25 second CD. This, combines with Fae Silence will enable use to lock a healer out for good 11 seconds.

Glyph of Stampeding Roar- Stampeding Roar has a 30 yard range. Superb for raid-wide movement situations.

A few other glyphs are more cosmetic/QoL, such as Feline Grace, allowing us to have its benefits in all forms, Master Shapeshifter, making our shifting be almost free, ect.

In addition, from what Ive heard, Force of Nature summons treants that have taunt, and have 50% more health then we do. In both tanking and soloing, this could mean that we can pop it w/e in order to give the actual tanks a quick breather, or even as a seperate CD (I.E Treants on Impale, 1 takes Impale, other 2 tank it for a bit).

[Punkhaole]

Druids in vanilla and BC were hitting 100% dodge, hence why it was scrapped from leather gear and normalized through agility.

---------- Post added 2012-03-22 at 09:18 PM ----------

Rogues were using the leather dodge gear in BC and were tanking Gruul's lair because of it.

[Raugnaut]

I would be very disappointed if our tier gear, at least, did NOT have dodge on it. I doubt, however, that any non-tier agi pieces will have dodge on it: Mastery and Hit both seem to be good for all Leather Agility specs.

---------- Post added 2012-03-22 at 09:27 PM ----------

Also, while this might not be my business, I would like to request ppl to keep topics in the Discussion Threads that are already been out, here http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...cussion-Thread, for the sake of keeping our forums less cluttered ^.^

[Arielle]

Everyone will take Feline Grace just to avoid every situation in which fall damage occurs.

Everyone will also take SI since that glyph is so damn OP right now.

FR is going to depend very much on incoming damage vs healing. It's a pure math choice that will be easy to determine on release.

Everyone will take Stampeding Roar.

Other than that, meh. Nobody is going to take the Might glyph since the downside is so goddamn terrible for a minor benefit.