MOP Walocks "pet less"

[thrill]

Dont be that person, you comparing pet based specs with, a pet class that has a talent that removes pets.

Warlock wasn't always the "pet class" it is now, pets in general were only given proper surviability/damage output in wotlk. Up until that point, demonic sacrifice/dark pact battery were the primary use of our pets in PVE. Sacrificing demons for a a power boost makes sense in the lore, and we've already had it in the past. So I don't see what the big deal is about bringing it back as an option, especially when it gives us flexibility on encounters with issues with pet range/movement/survivability.

The only problem I can see with demonic sacrifice, is balancing it in terms of aoe/multi-dotting compared to without. But it's not like they can't tune it to give different damage bonuses to different types of damage (direct/dot/aoe) to keep it in line.

It needs to scale with mastery to some degree if they want it to be viable for demo.

[Count Zero]

The only problem I can see with demonic sacrifice, is balancing it in terms of aoe/multi-dotting compared to without. But it's not like they can't tune it to give different damage bonuses to different types of damage (direct/dot/aoe) to keep it in line.

It needs to scale with mastery to some degree if they want it to be viable for demo.

http://www.wowdb.com/spells/108503-g...e-of-sacrifice

It only works on direct-damage spells -- making it actually worse for aoe than better.

And I do remember at one point way early they said Sac would scale with Demo's mastery, but they haven't seemed to include any functionality for that. I hope they do, but I wouldn't mind if one of the talents isn't partially wasted for just one of the specs.

[Veyne]

"pet less"

Well, you could pet less... but you could also pet more!

Word play aside, I could see the option being there, and being viable, but I don't think a lot of Warlocks would take it. I've always liked the idea of Affliction or Destruction being a petless Warlock spec. They never really synergize with the atmosphere of either of them. An Affliction Warlock is all spreading corruption and withering away their opponents. Destruction is all about causing havoc. For both specs, the demons are just kinda there for boring passive damage that never really adds to the feel of either spec. I'm all about making demons as important for Demonology as possible, but I think sacrificing your pet for increased personal damage should always be a choice for a demonologist/necromancer style class for one of the available playstyles (example, Age of Conan's Necromancer spec that focused on frost nukes was a perfect candidate for their minion sacrificing ability, but I don't know if they ever actually made it viable/competitive with their minion/death spec).

Hell, I might even be up for Marksmanship being an optionally petless Hunter spec.

[thrill]

@ count zero; I know that's how it is now, but it will have to boost AoE to some degree to be viable for demo, thou that could just be part of the mastery bonus for demo. Like: increases direct damage by 15% and all damage by x%+y% where y is mastery scaling, and x is the flat bonus to make up for base demo pet dmg increase.

It would have to work on DoT's somehow to be viable for affliction, unless they further differentiate it by spec. IE: since affliction would gain less from a static direct damage bonus (only malefic grasp and fel flame?), it gets a larger % to make up for it.

EDIT: I guess it would make the most sense to have it be something like "Increases direct damage by 15% and malefic grasp by an additional whatever%." for affli. Since that avoids the multi-dotting issue entirely, and doesn't unnecessarily buff fel flame.

[Dariela]

I'm looking forward to using it in my destro offspec, for that "Disguised as a Fire Mage" feel.

But I run Demo nearly all of the time. I'm fairly certain it will be next to useless for my spec.

[cortelas]

One thing people forget is that warlock pets have a ton of utility. Your imp can toss out an extra dispell/mass dispell/heal if your healers have issues. If your OT has trouble picking up adds the VW could help. If you need someone cced, then use the succubus. If you need a magic buff purged off a mob, then use the felhunter. We have yet to see how MoP bosses work, so pets could become very important for your group.

I really like having the option to sacrifice my pet for a CD. There are some times that I wish I didn't have to worry about the buggy AI. Mostly, I like the ability to sacrifice my pet for the flavor option. Sometimes having a drooling demon-dog ruins the moment.

[Jessicka]

Well, the only way they could be perfectly balanced is by accident. There's just be no way to tweak all three so they're doing the exact same dps ... so what's the problem with the one that sacrifices utility being the one that does the most damage ?

I'm not saying that should be the case. I just don't see the argument behind, "the one with the least utility should also do the least damage". I mean, ideally, they would shoot to balance them all so the difference is negligible -- I'd say badly-managed Service should be the lowest, un-managed / fire-and-forget Sac should be next, then Supremacy, then well-managed Sac, then well-managed Service (or something similar to that order, maybe switch the bottom two around or the top two around), all with maybe a 3-5% spread from top to bottom.

I can certainly see the argument where it should be most damage from a purely theoretical, idealised set of circumstances, but as xskarma says, why even roll the class in the first place if the idea of having a pet is so unappealing that you'd want rid of it at the first opportunity? Secondly, if that talent has more output, then it ceases to be an option and if it's not an option, then doesn't that suck for the rest of the playerbase who find the idea of having a Demon minion appealing, and enjoy the playstyle that comes with having it?

Furthermore, who said sacrificing a pet where circumstances make it more practical isn't utility in and of itself? The problems with pet AI, the moving between targets and so on are also pretty well documented, so there's no harm I feel in that talent being very slightly weaker to account for that. It's certainly much more widely applicable utility than the occasional dispel, stun or interrupt from a PvE standpoint where the difference is much more important.

[Gobuchul]

one of my favorite things about mop so far is the fact that the pets well do the same amount of damage

Where did you get that idea?

[Deleted]

I can certainly see the argument where it should be most damage from a purely theoretical, idealised set of circumstances, but as xskarma says, why even roll the class in the first place if the idea of having a pet is so unappealing that you'd want rid of it at the first opportunity? Secondly, if that talent has more output, then it ceases to be an option and if it's not an option, then doesn't that suck for the rest of the playerbase who find the idea of having a Demon minion appealing, and enjoy the playstyle that comes with having it?

"Why even roll the class" is a completely pointless argument. Since obviously there are quite a few people who would like to play without a pet, apparently the warlock, as a class, has more appeal than simply being a pet class. You can accept this simple fact and just let it rest, or keep telling all these people that they're playing their class wrong - guess which option is more productive here. I, for one, was sold on the warlock kit because of affliction's playstyle; having the drooling, tentacle-faced mutt follow me around is somewhere at the very bottom of the list of things that I enjoy about the spec. Every spec has a lot to offer, both flavor-wise and gameplay-wise, even the arguably most pet-centered demo has strong identity on its own. Sure enough, you can argue that affliction w/o a pet is just a shadowpriest, but the observation that [Spec X] is just [Spec Y] except [Random Thing Here] applies just as well to any spec in the game. Destro? Why, it's a firemage with an imp! Demo? Glorified BM hunter for goths.

That said, pets are useful on some fights. Being stuck on Remedy duty because your mage decided not to come, saving the day on Nef HC when your designated interrupter is still taking a lava bath, not having to worry about being in range for outside dispels on Hagara hc ice phase come to mind, just off the top of my head. Sure enough, my pet's abilities are going to save my ass many times in MoP raids, perhaps I will base my gameplay on some encounters on having them. So, for selected fights, I'll bring a demon anyway, regardless of Sac being a dps gain or not. By very definition, you will want to Sac your demon on fights that are not on the list. Now, if you exclude these fights where having a pet brings tangible benefits, you are left with two types of fights: those in which pets simply don't work/work badly(*cough*AlysAkir*cough*), and the majority, in which your pet is just passively attacking whatever it is that you're killing that evening, with zero interaction on your part. So, gameplay wise, whether that portion of damage comes from your demon, or from your own dps doesn't really change much.

Now, considering flavor (I'll grant you that and forget the entire "why roll a lock if you don't play it the RIGHT way"), I absolutely agree that some people wil want their pets not just for occassional dispels and interrupts, but because they like them. I'm absolutely fine with it. That's why I think all options shouldn't be too far away from each other, dps wise, so that Sac and Service do the same dps, with one being more bursty, and one being a passive buff, while Supremacy should offer slightly (like Count said, 5% or so) less dps for the added tricks useful in pvp and selected pve fights. That way everyone has what they want, more or less.

How to make sure this works like that? Well, Sac should lose the 15s double effect component (it's really annoying, I can already see the dreaded pet twisting - the most annoying part of the current demo playstyle - being a necessity for Sac to be viable dps-wise on most encounters) and should, on its own, provide a steady dps increase that is on par with Service, except a passive vs on-use.

[Jessicka]

Again, you're stating obvious utilitarian benefits of Sacrifice, while also insisting it's a loss of utility.

[Deleted]

Again, you're stating obvious utilitarian benefits of Sacrifice, while also insisting it's a loss of utility.

That's rubbish, overcoming bad encounter design (what boils down to bugs, really) isn't the actual design goal of Sac, or any other ability in fact. Last I checked, hunters, unholy DKs, frost mages and whoever else might be interested won't be getting such abilities. Bugged pets, after all, belong to the same category as, for example, Ultraxion's tendency to mess with some player abilities - ofc people will try to cope by adjusting rotations etc, but this kind of thing shouldn't happen in the first place, and so has no place in a discussion regarding talent balance. Other than those few cases where people might want to get rid of the pet due to the fact that the pet bugs out, there are no "utilitarian benefits".

I have no idea why you're going out of your way to insist that removing options available to a character at any given time is such a great utility option that it should be numerically penalized just for that, but you should stop, it's quite ridiculous.

[Count Zero]

I can certainly see the argument where it should be most damage from a purely theoretical, idealised set of circumstances, but as xskarma says, why even roll the class in the first place if the idea of having a pet is so unappealing that you'd want rid of it at the first opportunity? Secondly, if that talent has more output, then it ceases to be an option and if it's not an option, then doesn't that suck for the rest of the playerbase who find the idea of having a Demon minion appealing, and enjoy the playstyle that comes with having it?

Furthermore, who said sacrificing a pet where circumstances make it more practical isn't utility in and of itself? The problems with pet AI, the moving between targets and so on are also pretty well documented, so there's no harm I feel in that talent being very slightly weaker to account for that. It's certainly much more widely applicable utility than the occasional dispel, stun or interrupt from a PvE standpoint where the difference is much more important.

I can only speak for myself, but I rolled Warlock (my very first WoW character ever) because my buddy who got me into the game said, "Undead Warlock. They put curses and stuff on their enemies" (paraphrase) when I asked what I should play -- not a word about pets. Don't get me wrong (and in many ways I am just playing devil's advocate -- I don't really have a horse in this race), I like the the pet stuff that comes with being a Warlock, but I just personally don't feel married to the idea of Warlocks=petclass, and nothing I've encountered in-game with regard to lore screams at me that it would be out of character for my 'lock to put any of his demons on an altar and gut them for a personal increase of power.

Further, I still just can't buy into any argument regarding what is mathematically best unless it's with regards to something that is absolutely disproportionately overpowered -- more than 10% -- but I'd apply that argument in any direction; I don't think Service should be 10% more powerful than Supremacy or Sacrifice. Just to be clear, I do think that Service should probably be the top dps since it involves the highest degree of micromanagement + highest possibility of screwing up (either due to bad play or uncontrollable circumstances), but properly-played Sacrifice does also require micromanagement and I just don't see a big problem if either of the micromanagement options winds up on top by a slight margin, because really the utility offered by either option (not having to deal with pet ai / target switching, vs second set of pet ability on demand) is situational and I highly doubt Blizz is designing raids with this tier of Warlock talents in mind to make sure there's an equal number of optimal situations for all the options.

There will always be something on top, even if the margin is within the realm of rng, and hardcore raiders will always see that as being "required" -- whereas the overwhelming majority of the playerbase will not see a 1-3% difference as mandatory. Sure, they'll be influenced by the "cookie-cutter" spec, maybe even heavily (and this is actually why even though I think the micro-management options should be the top dps, I wouldn't want more than a 3-5% spread from top to bottom), but they will feel much, much less pressure to pick the theoretical highest-yield. I really, really just don't see why it's more of a problem for petless to be the best and therefore "forcing" people into petless than it would be for Service to be the best and "forcing" people into Service. Hardcore raiders are simply going to pick what's top dps and not care about aesthetic/playstyle, and unless it's a very noticeable difference even without damage meters, most folks are going to do what they please anyway.

[Deleted]

if theyt took away my pets on my hunter , i would play my DK or my shaman , it's taking away a wholl part of a class after 6-7 years..;p

yes this is Wlock i know but i feel the same for them , updated models AWESOME , but don't remove it give um a choice ok...but don't remove it

[Xorn]

http://www.wowdb.com/spells/108503-g...e-of-sacrifice

It only works on direct-damage spells -- making it actually worse for aoe than better.

And I do remember at one point way early they said Sac would scale with Demo's mastery, but they haven't seemed to include any functionality for that. I hope they do, but I wouldn't mind if one of the talents isn't partially wasted for just one of the specs.

Except a LARGE part of Destro's aoe is Incinerates cast via Fire and Brimstone, making the 60/30% damage buff to Incinerate all but amazing for Destro aoe. Hell, on top of the already large boost in damage it gets from Burning Embers I'd be surprised if Sac wasn't madatory for Destro on heavy aoe fights.

[roahn the warlock]

the major problem with this right now, is Destro has a talent directly tied to it's class, frankly it's a spell that isn't needed in the least, at level 85 I love destro, I feel like this pet stacking thing will make it worse, "Oh great I get to find an addon that watches these stacks?" so we basically cant take this with that spell

---------- Post added 2012-06-03 at 11:40 PM ----------

Balance... Balancing the three Grimoires is nearly impossible...

I don't really see how the other two will be hard to balance with eachother, it's simply a game of numbers... the super demons will prolly be better on normal fights, sacrifice of weird fights and the double demon for dps races, so you can hit it with all your trinks and pots

[Xorn]

the major problem with this right now, is Destro has a talent directly tied to it's class, frankly it's a spell that isn't needed in the least, at level 85 I love destro, I feel like this pet stacking thing will make it worse, "Oh great I get to find an addon that watches these stacks?" so we basically cant take this with that spells

If you are referring to Destructive Influence (which I don't know what else you'd be referring to), that spell hasn't been on the Beta for a loooong time now.

[Gratlim]

This petless option feels more like a poor solution for devs who never managed to make pet UI a little bit better and/or repair broken encounters where pets become useless. I don't like the fact we need to refresh it so often. It would be nice to have it as a perma buff like soul link on live.

I welcome it though as having a tiny Observer / Shivan etc is not super sexy either. They feel like mini pets and look almost "smaller" than base pets on beta. Just the idea of them being so small and feeling so weak kind of break the warlock feel too (lore-wise).

[Drilnos]

http://www.wowdb.com/spells/108559-demonic-rebirth

Demo locks can Sacrifice a minion, use the 15 seconds of 30% increased damage and have 5 seconds to pop a fresh demon, resulting in something a little like Terestian Illhoof in reverse. Both abilities have the same cooldown so they would always be up in sequence.

Speccing for GoSacrifice doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as going pet-less.

[Jessicka]

http://www.wowdb.com/spells/108559-demonic-rebirth

Demo locks can Sacrifice a minion, use the 15 seconds of 30% increased damage and have 5 seconds to pop a fresh demon, resulting in something a little like Terestian Illhoof in reverse. Both abilities have the same cooldown so they would always be up in sequence.

Speccing for GoSacrifice doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as going pet-less.

Or you can just use Service for greater effect...

[Grizelda]

This petless option feels more like a poor solution for devs who never managed to make pet UI a little bit better...

I understand what you're saying but on the contrary, the pet UI is VASTLY improved in MoP.