Teen Killed In Neighborhood Watch Shooting

[Crashdummy]

Did they teach you that caps lock was an effective tool in law school too?

You keep saying that Zimmerman instigated it because he called 911, but you have no clue exactly what happened. You are just making assumptions. Can you prove anywhere that calling 911 and getting into an altercation afterwards means that you are automatically the instigator? Surely you must be going on some sort of precedent.

According to the articles of several news, he pulled the car to the side of the kid in the first place and questioned, THEN followed him. That is instigating.

[Roose]

I would have been ARRESTED (not taking to heartquarters for interrogation) and then i would have to wait trial or pay a bill to be realesed while waitingg my trial.

This guy was not arrested, he got taken fo interrogation and released.

I do not see what is so hard to understand. He was brought in for questioning. He was not arrested because they did not have the evidence. Should we just stop using evidence because the crime is heinous?

[Borzo]

The million dollar question here is what happened in the time between that call and them fighting in the grass.

There is a possibility that Zimmerman stopped to try and talk to Martin and Martin took offense and took action. If Martin assaulted Zimmerman while he was in his car then it is not Zimmerman who instigated. That is a possibility that has not been talked about.

This is really the only possibility that might get Zimmerman off the hook.

Zimmerman would still have to explain why he got out of the car. And why he pursued the kid who was fleeing from him. Shooting someone who is fleeing from you is generally frowned upon, and will probably need even more explanation from Zimmerman.

[Roose]

They DO teach caps lock in law school. If you've read any legal documents, you'd know this :P

All existing reports suggest that Zimmerman was the aggressor. Unless he changes his story and says that the kid attacked him while he was still in his car... I'm not really sure where this will go....

Lawyers using an obnoxious device to emphasize a point, never! Learn something new everyday

Ya, very interesting case. I merely present the Martin provocation as a possibility.

According to the articles of several news, he pulled the car to the side of the kid in the first place and questioned, THEN followed him. That is instigating.

I have read several and not seen that. Could you link please?

---------- Post added 2012-03-13 at 12:31 PM ----------

This is really the only possibility that might get Zimmerman off the hook.

Zimmerman would still have to explain why he got out of the car. And why he pursued the kid who was fleeing from him. Shooting someone who is fleeing from you is generally frowned upon, and will probably need even more explanation from Zimmerman.

That is why I brought it up. That is really the only way I can see this going down as self defense. Any other state and the guy may be in jail awaiting trial. We can only guess right now.

Again, I think this case will likely spark some real debate about using self defense as your legal defense.

[Crashdummy]

I do not see what is so hard to understand. He was brought in for questioning. He was not arrested because they did not have the evidence. Should we just stop using evidence because the crime is heinous?

That's the point, there is no need for further evidence than the dead kid and the weapon belonging to him.

After that, its Zimmerman the one that must prove it was in self defense, IF and UNTILL he doesnt PROVE self defense, he is a murderer. The evidence of the murder is there, the dead kid, and the weapon, we have no evidence of the self defense yet, so he cant be free.

[Porcell]

The six calls are irrelevant. And no, its not mistaken, a White guy confronted a black guys that was doing nothing more than walking and the black guy ended dead. The white guy initiated the cconfrontation, the white guy was the ONLY one armed and the black guy ended dead.

Also, civilians have NO RIGHT to question ANYONE in public places unless the person ACCEPTS to be questioned.

Lets say I live in a neighborhood where there have been a lot of breakins recently. Lets say the police have been called in the past but they arrive too late and the culprits have always gotten away. Lets say I'm out driving around and I see a black youth in a hoody walking slowly in the rain. I call the police to report this suspisious person, and say "These assholes always get away." The youth turns and walks between two townhouses, so I leave my vehicle and follow on foot. What if the youth turns around and asks "What's your problem?" and confronts me?

[Note, all of the above are things that ACTUALLY HAPPENED and are taken from news reports.]

(fuzzy specifics about the altercation go here. Did I calmly ask the youth what he was doing? Do I explain that there have been a lot of breakins and I'm concerned with the security of the neighborhood? Does the youth immediately get confrontational and in my face? Does the youth get angry and charge me, knocking me to the ground? Who fucking knows....)

I don't know how many times this needs to be typed but "WE DON"T KNOW WHAT EXACTLY HAPPENED IN THE CONFRONTATION, AND WHAT HAPPENED EXACTLY IN THE CONFRONTATION IS WHAT COLORS THE CLAIM OF SELF DEFENSE."

There is most certainly a scenario where Zimmerman is 100% innocent in his actions. There is also most certainly a scenario where Zimmerman is 100% a racist asshole out looking for blood and murdering a poor black guy.
And there is ALSO most certainly the real scenario which is somewhere in between, where maybe Zimmerman had the best of intentions with questioning this stranger in the neighborhood and things got out of hand, and when Zimmerman started getting his ass beat he yelled for help and ended up shooting his assailant in self defense.

I'll just copy and paste this again down here: "WE DON"T KNOW WHAT EXACTLY HAPPENED IN THE CONFRONTATION, AND WHAT HAPPENED EXACTLY IN THE CONFRONTATION IS WHAT COLORS THE CLAIM OF SELF DEFENSE."

[Crashdummy]

I have read several and not seen that. Could you link please?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhoo...ry?id=15907136

"But about a minute later, Zimmerman left his car wearing a red sweatshirt and pursued Martin on foot between two rows of townhouses, about 70 yards from where the teen was going. "

Just an example, there are plenty.

[Roose]

That's the point, there is no need for further evidence than the dead kid and the weapon belonging to him.

After that, its Zimmerman the one that must prove it was in self defense, IF and UNTILL he doesnt PROVE self defense, he is a murderer. The evidence of the murder is there, the dead kid, and the weapon, we have no evidence of the self defense yet, so he cant be free.

So now he is guilty until proven innocent? Wow.

[Purlina]

Lawyers using an obnoxious device to emphasize a point, never! Learn something new everyday

Ya, very interesting case. I merely present the Martin provocation as a possibility.



I have read several and not seen that. Could you link please?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhoo...ry?id=15907136


"According to law enforcement sources who heard Zimmerman's call to a non-emergency police number, he told a dispatcher "these a..holes always get away."

Zimmerman described Martin as suspicious because he was wearing a hooded sweatshirt and walking slowly in the rain, police later told residents at a town hall.

A dispatcher told him to wait for a police cruiser, and not leave his vehicle.

But about a minute later, Zimmerman left his car wearing a red sweatshirt and pursued Martin on foot between two rows of townhouses, about 70 yards from where the teen was going.

Lee said Zimmerman's pursuit of Martin did not of itself constitute a crime.

Witnesses told ABC News a fist fight broke out and at one point Zimmerman, who outweighed Martin by more than 100 pounds, was on the ground and that Martin was on top."


In my opinion...

It looks like Zimmerman picked on someone smaller then himself but ended up losing the fist fight, he then resorted to using his gun.

[Crashdummy]

Lets say I live in a neighborhood where there have been a lot of breakins recently. Lets say the police have been called in the past but they arrive too late and the culprits have always gotten away. Lets say I'm out driving around and I see a black youth in a hoody walking slowly in the rain. I call the police to report this suspisious person, and say "These assholes always get away." The youth turns and walks between two townhouses, so I leave my vehicle and follow on foot. What if the youth turns around and asks "What's your problem?" and confronts me?

[Note, all of the above are things that ACTUALLY HAPPENED and are taken from news reports.]

(fuzzy specifics about the altercation go here. Did I calmly ask the youth what he was doing? Do I explain that there have been a lot of breakins and I'm concerned with the security of the neighborhood? Does the youth immediately get confrontational and in my face? Does the youth get angry and charge me, knocking me to the ground? Who fucking knows....)

I don't know how many times this needs to be typed but "WE DON"T KNOW WHAT EXACTLY HAPPENED IN THE CONFRONTATION, AND WHAT HAPPENED EXACTLY IN THE CONFRONTATION IS WHAT COLORS THE CLAIM OF SELF DEFENSE."

There is most certainly a scenario where Zimmerman is 100% innocent in his actions. There is also most certainly a scenario where Zimmerman is 100% a racist asshole out looking for blood and murdering a poor black guy.
And there is ALSO most certainly the real scenario which is somewhere in between, where maybe Zimmerman had the best of intentions with questioning this stranger in the neighborhood and things got out of hand, and when Zimmerman started getting his ass beat he yelled for help and ended up shooting his assailant in self defense.

I'll just copy and paste this again down here: "WE DON"T KNOW WHAT EXACTLY HAPPENED IN THE CONFRONTATION, AND WHAT HAPPENED EXACTLY IN THE CONFRONTATION IS WHAT COLORS THE CLAIM OF SELF DEFENSE."

Again, you as a civilian have no right to follow other civilians. When are people going to understand that they cant make justice by their own hands in a civilizaed country? You must call the police and thats it, unless you are attacked.

if the police is too slow, then you must pressure the politicians to make the police respond faster, not do justice by your own hands nor follow anyone to anywhere.

---------- Post added 2012-03-13 at 02:39 PM ----------

So now he is guilty until proven innocent? Wow.

He has been proved guilty, he did killed the kid, he know has to prove it was self defense in orde to not get to jail.

That's how justice works.

Self defense must be proven by the prosecuted one.

[Purlina]

Also...

"The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, it was Zimmerman who cried for help, said the witness. ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help."

LOL the officer corrected the witness? Who was there the officer or the witness...?

[Porcell]

Again, you as a civilian have no right to follow other civilians.

Sure I do, it's not illegal. It was even referenced one post above yours:

"But about a minute later, Zimmerman left his car wearing a red sweatshirt and pursued Martin on foot between two rows of townhouses, about 70 yards from where the teen was going.
Lee said Zimmerman's pursuit of Martin did not of itself constitute a crime. "

[Roose]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhoo...ry?id=15907136

"But about a minute later, Zimmerman left his car wearing a red sweatshirt and pursued Martin on foot between two rows of townhouses, about 70 yards from where the teen was going. "

I see nothing about Zimmerman stopping his car in front of Martin or following alongside him in his car. That is what I was referring to. What happened to make Zimmerman get out of his car? That is what the big question is.

---------- Post added 2012-03-13 at 12:52 PM ----------

Again, you as a civilian have no right to follow other civilians. false

He has been proved guilty, he did killed the kid, he know has to prove it was self defense in orde to not get to jail. False

That's how justice works.

I do not think you really know how our justice system works.

[Purlina]

I see nothing about Zimmerman stopping his car in front of Martin or following alongside him in his car. That is what I was referring to. What happened to make Zimmerman get out of his car? That is what the big question is.

It pretty clear, that Zimmerman could no longer follow in his car.

The teenager was walking somewhere he couldn't be followed by car. "Between two rows of townhouses."

Apparently Zimmerman wanted to continue "perusing" him.

[Crashdummy]

I see nothing about Zimmerman stopping his car in front of Martin or following alongside him in his car. That is what I was referring to. What happened to make Zimmerman get out of his car? That is what the big question is.

---------- Post added 2012-03-13 at 12:52 PM ----------



I do not think you really know how our justice system works.

If zimmerman FOLLOWED the teen, then zimmerman was not under attack.

---------- Post added 2012-03-13 at 02:55 PM ----------

Sure I do, it's not illegal. It was even referenced one post above yours:

"But about a minute later, Zimmerman left his car wearing a red sweatshirt and pursued Martin on foot between two rows of townhouses, about 70 yards from where the teen was going.
Lee said Zimmerman's pursuit of Martin did not of itself constitute a crime. "

If i see someone following me, i call the police. You dont have the right to FOLLOW me anywhere. You dont have the right to watch my movements and follow them. It is illegal as far as i know. At least its harrasment and i can get a restraining order to you.

[Tackhisis]

If this gated community is condominium, its streets are common property and residents can control who goes where and why.

[Purlina]

If this gated community is condominium, its streets are common property and residents can control who goes where and why.

The teenager was a resident :O

[Roose]

If zimmerman FOLLOWED the teen, then zimmerman was not under attack.

If i see someone following me, i call the police. You dont have the right to FOLLOW me anywhere. You dont have the right to watch my movements and follow them. It is illegal as far as i know. At least its harrasment and i can get a restraining order to you.

He could have been attacked before the chase. That is the point.

Again, you have some ideas about laws that simply are not true. Please find one person that has been arrested for following someone that doe snot involve a restraining order or some other legal reason.

---------- Post added 2012-03-13 at 12:59 PM ----------

The teenager was a resident :O

No, he was staying there for the week. He was the guest of a resident. Not a huge factor, but does explain why Zimmerman did not know who he was.

[Porcell]

I see nothing about Zimmerman stopping his car in front of Martin or following alongside him in his car. That is what I was referring to. What happened to make Zimmerman get out of his car? That is what the big question is.

There have been claims in this thread that Zimmerman headed him off or pulled up next to the victim, but I have not seen that references in any news articles and I'd still be interested in seeing a source. What I have seen is that Zimmerman followed the victim after making the 911 call. And then most recently:

"But about a minute later, Zimmerman left his car wearing a red sweatshirt and pursued Martin on foot between two rows of townhouses, about 70 yards from where the teen was going." Source

The phrase "between two rows of townhouses" seems to indicated why Zimmerman would leave his vehicle.

"Zimmerman told the police that Martin noticed that he was being followed and asked, “what’s your problem?”" Source

...

[Crashdummy]

I do not think you really know how our justice system works.

I think its you the one that doesnt know how the justice system works. You have top PROVE the self defense you claim.