Teen Killed In Neighborhood Watch Shooting

[Booshman]

You mean when he gave a guess on the tape that was not 17, then on the stand said he didn't know Treyvon was a kid?

Yah, what a flipflopper. /eyeroll

---------- Post added 2012-05-16 at 07:36 PM ----------



I totally agree.

Specifically saying "late teens" on one occasion, then later saying that "he was a little bit younger than he was" are two different extremes. In the end it chips away at your credibility.

---------- Post added 2012-05-16 at 07:53 PM ----------

That's not the stand your ground law. I believe it is the Castle Doctrine/Law which applies in those cases.

So "Stand Your Ground" only applies when you're off your property?

[Deleted]

Specifically saying "late teens" on one occasion, then later saying that "he was a little bit younger than he was" are two different extremes. In the end it chips away at your credibility.

---------- Post added 2012-05-16 at 07:53 PM ----------



So "Stand Your Ground" only applies when you're off your property?

From what I understand the Stand Your Ground law applies in a public place and you do not have the duty to retreat.

[Booshman]

From what I understand the Stand Your Ground law applies in a public place and you do not have the duty to retreat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-y...nd_law#Florida

776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—

(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:

(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

[KingHorse]

Specifically saying "late teens" on one occasion, then later saying that "he was a little bit younger than he was" are two different extremes. In the end it chips away at your credibility.

Personally I thought being the only survivor of an altercation threw your story into the "Yah, sure" file anyway. It means nothing on its own.

But when he's talking to the parents, not testifying, but trying to apologize for the death of their son, I'll give him a little slack for "About like his late teens" (that statement doesn't sound at all like "He's 17" or "He's definitely 19" he said "About like" indicating that he clearly wasn't sure on an age) turning in to "a little bit younger than I am." Zimmerman is 28. "A little bit" is very subjective. Perhaps Zimmerman thinks 9 years is only a "little bit"? The point is that at no point has he said anything concrete about the age he thought the kid was. So he has hardly backtracked, flipflopped, or lied, and anything relating to these two statements should at best be considered "within the margin of error."

We can also discuss at what point in your life 9 years stops being extreme if you'd like. But I think you're likely too young to understand that one just yet. But you will. I feel old now >.<

---------- Post added 2012-05-16 at 10:05 PM ----------

It is if the choice leads to someone dying. Negligent homicide.

Are you trying to say that this was a negligent homicide? Because it's far from it.

You're horribly misunderstanding the law governing negligent homicide. The negligence has to be proven to be something that any reasonable person would reasonably conclude would kill someone. Such as locking your kids in the car while you go to work, leaving them at home alone before they're able to care for themselves, things like that.

[KingHorse]

But if you knowingly put yourself in a situation you shouldn't and it leads to someone's death, it can be and often does end up as negligent homicide.

Again, you don't understand the law or its application. I'll give it another go:

It is used in cases in which a person does something that obviously should result in grievous bodily harm, and then does. For instance, if anyone died filming the Jackass movies, the people involved would likely be charged with negligent homicide.

Following someone through a neighborhood at night should not normally end in a death, unless you confront them or they confront you. Walking around in your own neighborhood at night shouldn't lead to a death. This is not negligent homicide.

[Booshman]

Personally I thought being the only survivor of an altercation threw your story into the "Yah, sure" file anyway. It means nothing on its own.

But when he's talking to the parents, not testifying, but trying to apologize for the death of their son, I'll give him a little slack for "About like his late teens" (that statement doesn't sound at all like "He's 17" or "He's definitely 19" he said "About like" indicating that he clearly wasn't sure on an age) turning in to "a little bit younger than I am." Zimmerman is 28. "A little bit" is very subjective. Perhaps Zimmerman thinks 9 years is only a "little bit"? The point is that at no point has he said anything concrete about the age he thought the kid was. So he has hardly backtracked, flipflopped, or lied, and anything relating to these two statements should at best be considered "within the margin of error."

We can also discuss at what point in your life 9 years stops being extreme if you'd like. But I think you're likely too young to understand that one just yet. But you will. I feel old now >.<

---------- Post added 2012-05-16 at 10:05 PM ----------



Are you trying to say that this was a negligent homicide? Because it's far from it.

You're horribly misunderstanding the law governing negligent homicide. The negligence has to be proven to be something that any reasonable person would reasonably conclude would kill someone. Such as locking your kids in the car while you go to work, leaving them at home alone before they're able to care for themselves, things like that.

The court isn't going to "give him some slack", they're going to take his words literally. That's the way the court works. Your leniency on this speaks volumes. Apparently you're too old to know that you should make sure that if you're going to go out on a limb and describe someone for what can and will be told to the police, that you should make sure that you're as accurate as possible. Saying "I can't tell" if you're really that unsure. And a 9 year physical difference (no matter how you wish it wasn't so) is a large range to take a shot in the dark with, when it doesn't come down to a person who isn't a fully grown adult. Don't ignore common sense when it's inconvenient for the point you're trying to make.

Despite your laughable "I'm mature!" posturing, you just demonstrated to everyone the cliche of wisdom not always being included with age.

[Sykol]

And a 9 year physical difference (no matter how you wish it wasn't so) is a large range to take a shot in the dark with

It really isn't. I still get IDed and receive funny looks when people find out I'm in my late 20s. Most people think I look between 17 and 19. If I were to commit a crime and the average person described me, the age range would likely span more than a decade, probably being completely off altogether. Especially in the heat of an argument or fight, or even the prelude to one when adrenaline is pumping, accurately discerning a person's age can be incredibly difficult.

[Isotope]

1. He was "on duty" as a neighborhood watchman. In doing so, his job is to report suspicious activity. 2. When it became clear that he was in possession of a loaded weapon during his altercation with Martin, it drives the point home to me that his actions are what lead to the death of Martin.

3. If he did his job, took the advice of 911 operators to stop following him and meet the cops at a designated location, Martin would still be alive.

Perhaps the term "negligent homicide" is getting our wires crossed. I can't think of another word, and am not a lawyer, so perhaps you can figure out the word I'm looking for. I get what you're saying, that negligent homicide is usually reserved for cases like killing someone while you're driving drunk, as drunk driving is against the law. I consider that "criminally negligent homicide", though. Perhaps our legal system doesn't differentiate?

Perhaps I'm referring to involuntary manslaughter?

EDIT - Perhaps I said perhaps a lot in that post.

1. He was actually on his way to Target. The fact that he was the neighborhood watch captain means nothing.

2. When you're legally allowed to carry a firearm it means nothing.

3. This is a catch 22. A dispatcher IS NOT a law enforcement official, in fact most cities contract out 911 dispatch to save money. Now if Martin didn't feel like he was a "thug" and a "gangster" and decide to confrot Zimmerman in while he was walking back to his car with his fists. Martin would be alive today. In fact if Martin was busted for pot at school, he would be alive today.

Now people talking about negligent homicide. This ISN'T a case of negligent homicide. In fact this would be called and will be called a justifiable homicide.

Here is the best example of negligent homicide. You're out shooting your bow and arrow and you shoot somebody and kill them with it. You were negligent in shooting your bow and arrow and you killed somebody. Thus negligent homicide.

But I digress. Most people haven't actually take the time to look up ALL the facts. Under Florida law (and that's all that matters) he is not guilty. Morally you may think he was wrong in what he did. However your morals are not the morals of law, so they really don't matter. The only thing that matters is the laws of Florida.

[oblivionx]

well the thing is whos to say martin wasnt defending himself? some strange guy was following him around and confronted him. my first thought would be he intended to do me harm.

---------- Post added 2012-05-16 at 03:25 PM ----------


that counts in a fight.. height doesnt so much.

Just by age, fitness and the fact the Trayvon Martin was a wide receiver on the football team sort of implies that if he wanted to avoid Zimmerman he obviously could have.

And height is a big thing in a fight, weight is too.. only if fitness levels are similar. Zimmerman don't look to be a fitness guy.

---------- Post added 2012-05-17 at 07:08 AM ----------

I think a lot of people have some issues understanding what stand your ground is.

Many states have laws that require you to first flee the scene and only allow use of deadly force if you were in danger and could not flee.

Stand your ground is basically eliminating the need to flee.

If you are on the ground getting pummeled by someone, even if stand your ground did not exist you can use deadly force.

I'm sure most have heard of situations where someone used force (not even deadly force) against someone that was breaking and entering and ended up getting arrested and/or sued.

[KingHorse]

The court isn't going to "give him some slack", they're going to take his words literally. That's the way the court works. Your leniency on this speaks volumes. Apparently you're too old to know that you should make sure that if you're going to go out on a limb and describe someone for what can and will be told to the police, that you should make sure that you're as accurate as possible. Saying "I can't tell" if you're really that unsure. And a 9 year physical difference (no matter how you wish it wasn't so) is a large range to take a shot in the dark with, when it doesn't come down to a person who isn't a fully grown adult. Don't ignore common sense when it's inconvenient for the point you're trying to make.

Wow, you just have no idea what you're talking about at all. Lets run down the list:
- The court doesn't have to give him some slack, and my age has nothing to do with it (though I appreciate the attempt at an insult) I said I was willing to do so. Respond to what I say, not what you think I said.
- My leniency speaks volumes? You attacked me all over the place, why pull up from this one? Go ahead, throw another insult in there, don't be scared! Anyway, my leniency means that I understand stressful situations and the idea that 9 years means almost nothing. You don't understand the same. That's OK, no big deal. But attacking me for your lack of understanding is not productive.
- 9 years being a large range is subjective. I noted that you likely wouldn't agree with that given your age. I was right. Whoa.
- Common sense changes over time. That's that maturity and age thing I was talking about. Again, your youth is dictating your path, and leading you the wrong way. The adults in court (judge and jury) have a different perspective.

Despite your laughable "I'm mature!" posturing, you just demonstrated to everyone the cliche of wisdom not always being included with age.

Man, you are just tripping all over yourself to get in a jab at me because I disagree with you. Here's a tip: IDGAF if you don't like me, but you provide no facts whatsoever in your argument against me, and that just makes me sad. You insulted and you pulled an "appeal to the masses," all while completely getting what I was saying wrong. Three strikes in one line, impressive! Wisdom does not come with age. Wisdom comes with experience. The perspective of how long a long time is (i.e. is 9 years a big deal) is greatly influenced by age. And I'll slow it down for you this time so you don't miss it again: when you're old like me (Notice I didn't say mature? There is also no mention of wisdom in there. Go ahead and go back and read it, I'll wait...) nine years doesn't seem like a very long time.

Now, go get some experience.

[Riidii]

Marijuana was found in Martin's system.

Researchers also concluded that he was shot in the heart at close range.

Also some new pictures released. Broken nose and all.

http://news.yahoo.com/documents-shed...235341368.html

[Gerrin]

Marijuana was found in Martin's system.

Researchers also concluded that he was shot in the heart at close range.

Also some new pictures released. Broken nose and all.

http://news.yahoo.com/documents-shed...235341368.html

People don't care dude. Haters will be haters. There could be evidence that Treyvon Martin was carrying an automatic rifle, smoking crack, and beating a child with a whip and the haters will hate Zimmerman. Evidence is meaningless for these people. The professional racists want Zimmerman dead and nothing will change it.

[PACOX]

Marijuana was found in Martin's system.

Researchers also concluded that he was shot in the heart at close range.

Also some new pictures released. Broken nose and all.

http://news.yahoo.com/documents-shed...235341368.html

This thread became useless a long time ago but what does a little bit of weed have to do with anything? Last time I checked, weed doesn't just makes you lazy and gives you the munchies. And who is to say Zimmerman didn't get into a fight with someone else and use the kid as a scapegoat?

[Badpaladin]

People don't care dude. Haters will be haters. There could be evidence that Treyvon Martin was carrying an automatic rifle, smoking crack, and beating a child with a whip and the haters will hate Zimmerman. Evidence is meaningless for these people. The professional racists want Zimmerman dead and nothing will change it.

Or reasonable people will want change in a system that allows ill-equipped people to kill in circumstances they're not capable of handling.

That's ultimately the crux of this situation - a man in a situation he wasn't capable of handling properly. Would he not have approached Martin if there wasn't a Stand Your Ground law? Perhaps, perhaps not. It will, however, lead to some meaningful discussions amongst lawmakers about whether or not a law like this should continue.

[Gerrin]

Or reasonable people will want change in a system that allows ill-equipped people to kill in circumstances they're not capable of handling.

That's ultimately the crux of this situation - a man in a situation he wasn't capable of handling properly. Would he not have approached Martin if there wasn't a Stand Your Ground law? Perhaps, perhaps not. It will, however, lead to some meaningful discussions amongst lawmakers about whether or not a law like this should continue.

You are not paying attention to the facts. Zimmerman did not approach Treyvon Martin. What do you mean by ill-equipped? Seems to me he was quite well equipped. Some stupid punk who was allot larger than him and hopped up on dope beats the bloody hell out of the guy then reaches for his gun. Zim-the-man-punk-killer draws it and takes the guy out. JUSTICE. We need more Mark Zimmermans.

[obdigore]

You are not paying attention to the facts. Zimmerman did not approach Treyvon Martin. What do you mean by ill-equipped? Seems to me he was quite well equipped. Some stupid punk who was allot larger than him and hopped up on dope beats the bloody hell out of the guy then reaches for his gun. Zim-the-man-punk-killer draws it and takes the guy out. JUSTICE. We need more Mark Zimmermans.

You don't know who started the altercation, or who attacked first (although the shots of Zimmermans hands are pretty telling, no bruised/damaged knuckles or anything), but either way the prosecution has to prove that Zimmerman was not in reasonable fear of his life. Judging from his wounds, he was getting his face beat in.

[Gerrin]

You don't know who started the altercation, or who attacked first (although the shots of Zimmermans hands are pretty telling, no bruised/damaged knuckles or anything), but either way the prosecution has to prove that Zimmerman was not in reasonable fear of his life. Judging from his wounds, he was getting his face beat in.

2 eye-witnesses plus the 911 tape make it very clear. Zimmerman walked to the end of the street to get the correct address and was attacked. Quit listening to PMSNBC.

[obdigore]

2 eye-witnesses plus the 911 tape make it very clear. Zimmerman walked to the end of the street to get the correct address and was attacked. Quit listening to PMSNBC.

The 911 tape ended before Zimmerman was attacked, and I'm unaware of any eyewitnesses to the START of the fight. Would you like to provide some sources for your claims? I'd love to see anything from someone claiming to have seen the start of the fight?

[Gerrin]

The 911 tape ended before Zimmerman was attacked, and I'm unaware of any eyewitnesses to the START of the fight. Would you like to provide some sources for your claims? I'd love to see anything from someone claiming to have seen the start of the fight?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/interactiv...immerman-case/
Thats the 183 page police report.

Zimmerman saw Trayvon walking along the back side of the houses when he called police. They requested information as well as an address. He stepped out of his vehicle and walked back to the road sign. That sign was in the opposite direction from where Trayvon needed to walk to get to his relative's (father's?? dont recall) house. Moments after the call ended the altercation occurred between the corner and Zimmerman's vehicle. Witnesses verify the location of the altercation.

[Wells]

Whines that people listen to MSNBC (no one said they listened to MSNBC). Then links Fox News. Mhm.