1. #20881
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    That doesn't make him infallible. I would also hope he's not the sole person balancing the game, that would be hectic.



    Thanks, I make a good punching bag
    I didn't say that but he doesn't get enough credit. There is a reason why Dota blew up. And it wasn't just the gameplay. Noone here would do a better job balancing the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I don't think Icefrog knows what he's doing at all. So many nerfs and buffs are so kneejerk and obviously performed just to force people to play the game differently. At this point, it's painfully obvious that the balancing decisions behind Dota2 are simply used to drive esports interest, and not competitive fairness. I don't think anyone can seriously examine Valve's practices over the past year or two with Dota2 and say that they care about anything other than esports. Believing otherwise is nothing short of delusional, in my opinion.

    And I don't really blame them. The game is free to play, which means making it "more fun" won't make them any more money. So they might get more players, who cares? Maybe it would translate into some more cosmetics, but they probably know there's a reasonable cap on that long term. Eventually, everyone will have great sets for their favorite heroes, and interest in hats dies down. They have years of experience with hat simulator 2.0 also known as TF2 to prove this. So, the way to keep massive profits in the long term is to get people interested in watching, not playing. Viewers are more powerful than players will ever be.

    See Leshrac is overpowered, always first pick/ban. That's boring. Force the pros to forget about him by nerfing him to death. Same for any other popular hero. Take unpopular heroes and buff them so they get played, game is interesting again. Release a balance patch like this before every major tournament so every tournament feels new and fresh for the viewers. Is Invoker underpowered? Probably not, but people still aren't picking him, keep buffing him. Oh, shit, he's overpowered and people finally realized it, well it's too late to nerf him before the next major, we'll let it ride out and then cut his stats in half and remove his ultimate after the tournament when people are sick of watching him again.
    You can believe he's not exactly professional, but to say that is a bit overboard. Also many unpopular heroes are good but it's the players who choose not to pick them. They don't all need buffs. People tend to stay away from heroes like Invoker because he requires more skill, not because he was underpowered. There is some truth to what you are saying but I don't think every nerf/buff is for esports.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    Ah come on Granyala, there's several possible reasons for it. A few that would get us banned here like pointing out a deficite in his mental capacity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oktoberfest View Post
    Man I swear, every time someone uses the term 'Critical Thinking' I want to pop em in the mouth.

  2. #20882
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Most of it is done to shift things around for the eSport viewers, but its not really a sustainable model for long term interest. It requires a lot of time spent on making sure that it continues. The more sustainable model would be more along the lines of a rock/paper/scissors, where Heroes form their own popularity based on which other Heroes are being picked at the time. You'd end up with a kind of cyclical balance, where heroes would rise and fall in popularity based on which other heroes are currently being played and when games cater to their individual strengths rather than when they're buffed to breaking point. This kind of system would require very little micromanaging once set up, and any outliers could be more easilly brought back into line with small changes, rather than huge buffs/nerfs. But I don't think Icefrog is good enough as a Dev to get something like this working properly if his track record is anything to go by. Not that it matters, I don't think Valve would allow it even if he was capable of delivering.
    We were actually seeing this with 6.85 before 6.86 destroyed everything. 6.85 was intended to be very similar to 6.84, so in a sense we had several months with only one real patch cycle, containing only a handful of drastic changes (Leshrac neutered, etc.) Big differences between major events, and Summit 4 had everyone throwing all their cards on the table since they knew 6.86 would destroy their existing playbooks - imagine if 6.86 just continued the trend of relatively mild changes and they didn't have to throw all those cards away. It showed just how differently a single patch could be played if the players had time enough to adapt to it and develop strategies for it.

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    Jesus fuck Omniknight is so goddamn broken after 6.85's cutting Purification cast time in half. I don't know how the fuck the pros are so blind. Hero completely breaks the game, you either get a Diffusal Blade by 15 minutes or you lose the game. And Diffusal Blade just makes the hero merely balanced.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  3. #20883
    jester is a mod, we fucking lost boys

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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Jesus fuck Omniknight is so goddamn broken after 6.85's cutting Purification cast time in half. I don't know how the fuck the pros are so blind. Hero completely breaks the game, you either get a Diffusal Blade by 15 minutes or you lose the game. And Diffusal Blade just makes the hero merely balanced.
    or you pick oracle, sd, invoker, dominating purge creep/doom eating it etc.. at least 2 of those heroes are meta right now. I think we've seen some omni picks by liquid iirc but it doesn't always work out, even when theres 0 purge.
    "We live in a world where a style of play that uses posession and passing to try and make spaces is made fun of.
    While a style of play where a team sits back for 90 minutes and breaks away in 1v1 situations is respected."
    - Ronald Koeman.

  4. #20884
    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkenvalley View Post
    Gratz on becoming a mod, Jester Joe.

    @Techies "discussion":
    Here's what techies does for your team.
    - Has terrible base stats, so cannot effectively harass or lane; he'll just feed if he tries
    - Landmines are so easy to dodge or destroy safely now you have to go full retard to die to them
    - Suicide requires at least +1 if you land the near-melee range explosion, +2 otherwise

    So... until he has his ultimate he provides nearly or literally nothing for his team even if he actively tries. And since he has no lane presence and little effectiveness if any he's gonna get level 6 when exactly?
    Depends on the skill level of the player, you can easily spam mines and get a tower down fast. Techies is not the only hero with bad stats. When you say he provides literally nothing for his team, it's laughable, and sorry but I don't buy it. He forces a team to play carefully, and spend gold on sentries.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    Ah come on Granyala, there's several possible reasons for it. A few that would get us banned here like pointing out a deficite in his mental capacity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oktoberfest View Post
    Man I swear, every time someone uses the term 'Critical Thinking' I want to pop em in the mouth.

  5. #20885

  6. #20886
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    Quote Originally Posted by EqualWin View Post
    jester is a mod, we fucking lost boys

    - - - Updated - - -



    or you pick oracle, sd, invoker, dominating purge creep/doom eating it etc.. at least 2 of those heroes are meta right now. I think we've seen some omni picks by liquid iirc but it doesn't always work out, even when theres 0 purge.
    Invoker can't do shit about Repel. Creep purge has like 200 cast range so it's not really a solution either. None of that does anything about 360 AOE pure damage + 360 heal.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  7. #20887
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Jesus fuck Omniknight is so goddamn broken after 6.85's cutting Purification cast time in half. I don't know how the fuck the pros are so blind. Hero completely breaks the game, you either get a Diffusal Blade by 15 minutes or you lose the game. And Diffusal Blade just makes the hero merely balanced.
    Omni has a massive winrate in pubs because you don't get as taxed for a poor early game or lack of disables and because the supports aren't roaming/ganking mid/etc. You're going to get your items, team fights are always gonna be 5vs5, etc. At pro level, its just not that easy.

  8. #20888
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Invoker can't do shit about Repel. Creep purge has like 200 cast range so it's not really a solution either. None of that does anything about 360 AOE pure damage + 360 heal.
    Invoker can't deal with repel, however his Tornado will remove Guardian Angel from any un-repelled un-BKBed targets. Depending on his build, it might not be great for Invoker, but its nice for the right clickers on his team. The creep's purge is the weakest of the bunch, but if Doom devours it, he's going to want to be in melee range of whoever needs repelling anyway so the range is less of an issue for him.

    Unfortunately the problem with Omni's heal is that he very rarely gets to use it as both a healing tool and as a damage one. It sounds like its great on paper, but in practice its usually one or the other. Excluding those times when people get it into their heads to challenge Omni to fisticuffs, then its a 720 HP swing in his favour and usually nets him a tidy gold sum. Its a powerful spell to be sure, but its small damage radius is what keeps it in check.

  9. #20889
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Invoker can't deal with repel, however his Tornado will remove Guardian Angel from any un-repelled un-BKBed targets. Depending on his build, it might not be great for Invoker, but its nice for the right clickers on his team. The creep's purge is the weakest of the bunch, but if Doom devours it, he's going to want to be in melee range of whoever needs repelling anyway so the range is less of an issue for him.

    Unfortunately the problem with Omni's heal is that he very rarely gets to use it as both a healing tool and as a damage one. It sounds like its great on paper, but in practice its usually one or the other. Excluding those times when people get it into their heads to challenge Omni to fisticuffs, then its a 720 HP swing in his favour and usually nets him a tidy gold sum. Its a powerful spell to be sure, but its small damage radius is what keeps it in check.
    It's incredibly easy to setup Purification bombs with any decent kind of communication, especially now that the cast time was almost literally cut in half. It's really hard to overstate just how huge of a buff this was to Omniknight, on a hero that frankly didn't need any buffs (they just needed to stop buffing Diffusal Blade since it was already pretty good after they changed it to not be an orb.)

    Also, I'm fucking sick of ES. Echo Slam is just way too fucking powerful for an instant ult. Does damage equivalent to Epicenter with only like 2 heroes and maybe a couple creeps in the AOE (which is pretty big!) except it's instant.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  10. #20890
    Ember spirit has been so annoying lately ugh. They all build manta and that makes it so hard to kill him. I feel like that flame shield is a bit broken as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    Ah come on Granyala, there's several possible reasons for it. A few that would get us banned here like pointing out a deficite in his mental capacity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oktoberfest View Post
    Man I swear, every time someone uses the term 'Critical Thinking' I want to pop em in the mouth.

  11. #20891
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    It's incredibly easy to setup Purification bombs with any decent kind of communication, especially now that the cast time was almost literally cut in half. It's really hard to overstate just how huge of a buff this was to Omniknight, on a hero that frankly didn't need any buffs (they just needed to stop buffing Diffusal Blade since it was already pretty good after they changed it to not be an orb.)
    The issue is that most heroes still can walk out of Purification range during a melee swing early game, especially against Str heroes whose initial swings are generally quite slow. It gets better later on when theres more attack speed in the picture, or if you're casting it on yourself so you can make sure you're in a good position for it. A stun or a slow will totally negate this, but at that point you're likely using it mostly for the damage. Obviously trying to use it on ranged heroes for damage is pointless, but if you're casting it on them anyway its going to be for the heal. But the fact remains that its still one of those spells that looks better on paper than in practice - especially if you consider the possiablity that you could land one on all five of the opposing team for a mighty 1600 damage in total, its unrealistic but I have known people try push it as a point in Omni's favour.

    Personally, I consider having to make a choice to use it as a heal or as a damage spell good gameplay, it creates interesting moments and tough decisions. It adds some real depth to Omni's play but without any added complications.

    As things stand, Omni is slowly creeping upwards in power, I'd expect him to be FotM soon simply because he's been buffed to the point of total insanity and its showing no signs of slowing down.

  12. #20892
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    The issue is that most heroes still can walk out of Purification range during a melee swing early game, especially against Str heroes whose initial swings are generally quite slow. It gets better later on when theres more attack speed in the picture, or if you're casting it on yourself so you can make sure you're in a good position for it. A stun or a slow will totally negate this, but at that point you're likely using it mostly for the damage. Obviously trying to use it on ranged heroes for damage is pointless, but if you're casting it on them anyway its going to be for the heal. But the fact remains that its still one of those spells that looks better on paper than in practice - especially if you consider the possiablity that you could land one on all five of the opposing team for a mighty 1600 damage in total, its unrealistic but I have known people try push it as a point in Omni's favour.

    Personally, I consider having to make a choice to use it as a heal or as a damage spell good gameplay, it creates interesting moments and tough decisions. It adds some real depth to Omni's play but without any added complications.

    As things stand, Omni is slowly creeping upwards in power, I'd expect him to be FotM soon simply because he's been buffed to the point of total insanity and its showing no signs of slowing down.
    Any hero with a blink dagger or similar mobility tool makes purification bombs effortless. It's usually used as an either/or, but in many cases can be used for both. LC is a perfect example of a hero that uses both aspects.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  13. #20893
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Any hero with a blink dagger or similar mobility tool makes purification bombs effortless. It's usually used as an either/or, but in many cases can be used for both. LC is a perfect example of a hero that uses both aspects.
    if youre using it as blink burst, then youre not doing it for the heal, losing half of its usefulness and its way harder to cooperate than just having targetable aoe nuke on your support, even on heroes like LC or slark, who can keep their target close, its still mostly 1 target 360 damage nuke anyway because its obvious, what youre trying to do, I fail to see the supposed OPness, omni has godlike tools, but the heal isnt one of them...

  14. #20894
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    if youre using it as blink burst, then youre not doing it for the heal, losing half of its usefulness and its way harder to cooperate than just having targetable aoe nuke on your support, even on heroes like LC or slark, who can keep their target close, its still mostly 1 target 360 damage nuke anyway because its obvious, what youre trying to do, I fail to see the supposed OPness, omni has godlike tools, but the heal isnt one of them...
    The heal is currently his best skill.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  15. #20895
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    The heal is currently his best skill.
    I concur, for once, with PizzaSHARK. Due to the scaling of his abilities currently if you're not going 4-1-4 you're doing something horribly wrong. There's even an argument to be made for not touching GA at all until lvls 10 and 11 against certain lineups.

  16. #20896
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    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    I concur, for once, with PizzaSHARK. Due to the scaling of his abilities currently if you're not going 4-1-4 you're doing something horribly wrong. There's even an argument to be made for not touching GA at all until lvls 10 and 11 against certain lineups.
    Yup. I saw a post by a 7k guy that had like 30 wins straight with Omniknight, did 4-1-4 and generally didn't touch GA until like lvl 8-9. I usually hold onto my point at 6+ unless we're being passive, in case I need to quickly pick up my ult earlier than planned to turn a fight. It's hard to understate how huge of a change reducing Purification cast point to 0.30 sec was, it's like playing a completely different hero. It used to require a lot of planning and excellent positioning to play Omniknight... now, not so much.

    I've been generally doing manaboots->aether lens->rebuild manaboots->force staff. Lens is amazing on Omniknight, and at some point they changed it so that you can push yourself even while magic immune, so it makes it a good item for him. You get ulti based on what you're playing against, but unless you're vs an LC or Ursa or BB or some other huge early game physical burst threat, 10+11 is my usual choice.

    I'm not sure what item to get after Force Staff. Octarine Core just sounds disgusting, would result in literally 100% uptime on Repel. But probably better to go Shiva's, sheeper, etc. I only get Agh's if we're vs ratters (and I'll get refresher too, having those extra "glyphs" helps a ton) or vs physical pick-off heroes like LC (that way I don't need to be anywhere nearby to save a teammate that gets caught.)
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  17. #20897
    Deleted
    Greaves is too good on Omni to pass up. I tend to get Aether, mobility item, and then Greaves afterwards whenever I play a 3-position Omni. Vlad's, Drums, AC, etc are all worth considering at some point - he's just a generally very solid aura carrier.

  18. #20898
    I feel like the cast point needed a buff, had so many teammates cry and say wtf heal me nub.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    Ah come on Granyala, there's several possible reasons for it. A few that would get us banned here like pointing out a deficite in his mental capacity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oktoberfest View Post
    Man I swear, every time someone uses the term 'Critical Thinking' I want to pop em in the mouth.

  19. #20899
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    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    Greaves is too good on Omni to pass up. I tend to get Aether, mobility item, and then Greaves afterwards whenever I play a 3-position Omni. Vlad's, Drums, AC, etc are all worth considering at some point - he's just a generally very solid aura carrier.
    Greaves aren't very good on him unless you're worried about Global Silence or something. Just Repel yourself and use the extra range to your advantage.

    Mek kinda sucks now unless you get it at like 10-12 mins and greaves are a LOT of gold. You could get force staff+glimmer cape for about what greaves would cost you, especially if you don't rebuild manaboots after making lens (not necessary in some situations.)
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  20. #20900
    Omniknight is great but sadly carry omni is not so good anymore. RIP my free MMR. Pair him with sand king and you can't possibly lose.

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