[Megathread] DotA 2

[Drunkenvalley]

Yeah, ultimately the only thing that raises or lowers your mmr is your overall performance, which is a set of completely unknown factors beyond winning and losing. I hear hero damage was a modifier for how much mmr you received before, hence why you saw so many Zeus games, but apparently that got changed.

[Mellomania]

Yeah, ultimately the only thing that raises or lowers your mmr is your overall performance, which is a set of completely unknown factors beyond winning and losing. I hear hero damage was a modifier for how much mmr you received before, hence why you saw so many Zeus games, but apparently that got changed.

Think that was only for calibration games.

[Lysah]

@starladder finals


can we pllllllllllleeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaseeeeeeeeeeeee nerf this fucking push meta already holy shit


@mmr discussion
Biggest indicator of how many games you play and that's pretty much it. It's no surprise that the people with the highest MMR also tend to have some of the highest games played, it's called a grind for a reason. The difference between 2k and 8k would be extremely noticable, but the difference between 5k and 6k is pretty much nothing, just one group of people that play the game a lot more and are much more serious about the grind.

[Deleted]

I'm not sure how you draft against Alliance this patch, to be honest. It feels like you have to be able to play their heroes so you can ban Io/Chen in the first phase and take either NP or LD if you have first pick, and take whichever one of those they don't take if you don't have first pick.

Giving them more than one of Io/Chen/LD/NP just seems to be an automatic loss right now - and you can still lose to the LD alone. Maybe you just have to be a team that plays Io so you can ban LD and Chen in the first phase.

[Lysah]

You draft against Alliance by Icefrog nerfing these bullshit heroes. I knew the game was over when they gave alliance LD chen VS in the first 3 picks, that combination is already 100% unbeatable. I literally don't think you can possibly draft a team that can stop those 3 heroes from taking 15 minute rax right now. And it shows, every time anyone got within range of the summon army they pretty much died instantly without Alliance having to actually commit anything to the job. Summons are just way over the top now and are stronger than actual heroes. I don't want to be one of those people that complains that every patch is the worst patch but this is honestly one of the most boring patches dota2 has had, if not the most boring. Alliance didn't even outplay EG in game two, they just broke buildings and there's nothing you can do about it.

At least EG was smart enough to ban OSfrog prophet before they grabbed her for their last pick mid, exorcism on top of that lineup would've been like 9 minute rax.

[Crackleslap]

Alliance is back! Some heroes need nerfing! Aether lens needs to be nerfed!

[Mellomania]

EG is kinda hurt by not playing chen and Io though, but isn't it the same every patch?
Some teams really like the strong heroes so they do very well, and others aren't that good with them and the fall behind?

[Dreadlack]

You draft against Alliance by Icefrog nerfing these bullshit heroes. I knew the game was over when they gave alliance LD chen VS in the first 3 picks, that combination is already 100% unbeatable. I literally don't think you can possibly draft a team that can stop those 3 heroes from taking 15 minute rax right now. And it shows, every time anyone got within range of the summon army they pretty much died instantly without Alliance having to actually commit anything to the job. Summons are just way over the top now and are stronger than actual heroes. I don't want to be one of those people that complains that every patch is the worst patch but this is honestly one of the most boring patches dota2 has had, if not the most boring. Alliance didn't even outplay EG in game two, they just broke buildings and there's nothing you can do about it.

At least EG was smart enough to ban OSfrog prophet before they grabbed her for their last pick mid, exorcism on top of that lineup would've been like 9 minute rax.

You are so incredibly salty it's unreal. If these heroes were broken per se, all teams would compete to get them. Newsflash my dear: they DON'T. Why is alliance so good right now?`Because they have a player who is literally the best in the world on two heroes where you need to ban it or you lose, which opens up comfort heroes for the other players. It's why Alliance was so good t3, it's why they are so good now. Bulldog vs trilane and he still manages 17 min radi? You don't beat that.

[StrawberryZebra]

But then again, there's no "I am queuing as support" option or "I am queuing as core" option, so your MMR is a summation of ALL games across ALL roles and ALL heroes... there's so many damn variables it doesn't seem possible for it to accurately reflect exactly how good or bad a player is at the game.

One could argue that basing it across your skill at every role with every Hero would be a far more accurate measure of your Dota skills overall than how good you are at playing a small selection of Heroes for just one specific role. Putting people into different roles and heroes gives you a much clearer picture of how well they play Dota, not just how good they are at playing Ember Spirit.

On the other hand, I wouldn't object to allowing people to select the role they want before going into game. It would solve a lot of arguments in solo queues and get everyone on the same page before the game even starts. But of course its one of those nice things that other Moba's have so no way is it ever making its way into Dota.

I saw Purge's coaching of a Void offlane guy and that was just.. that was just sad. The guy was 4k, and it just grated me to no end watching him.

I've seen this kind of thing happen too. More often than not the person you're trying to coach just ends up getting frustrated with all the extra direction you're giving them, it usually ends up as the coach playing via proxy rather than it helping the trainee in any way, shape or form. I'd be prepared to bet not my mortgage but certainly £10 that the Void player would be much more comfortable and play better without Purge watching over his shoulder. At least thats the impression I've always had when I've tried using it to help new players into Dota anyway.

[PizzaSHARK]

You draft against Alliance by Icefrog nerfing these bullshit heroes. I knew the game was over when they gave alliance LD chen VS in the first 3 picks, that combination is already 100% unbeatable. I literally don't think you can possibly draft a team that can stop those 3 heroes from taking 15 minute rax right now. And it shows, every time anyone got within range of the summon army they pretty much died instantly without Alliance having to actually commit anything to the job. Summons are just way over the top now and are stronger than actual heroes. I don't want to be one of those people that complains that every patch is the worst patch but this is honestly one of the most boring patches dota2 has had, if not the most boring. Alliance didn't even outplay EG in game two, they just broke buildings and there's nothing you can do about it.

At least EG was smart enough to ban OSfrog prophet before they grabbed her for their last pick mid, exorcism on top of that lineup would've been like 9 minute rax.

Summons and illusions are probably too strong. Chen creeps should probably have increased bounties since he can heal them to full instantly as well as instantly send them back to fountain. Spirit bear already has a high bounty. Illusions are definitely too disposable and there should be some form of penalty to discourage people from just spawning illusions and sending them at towers.

I doubt we'll ever see anything like that though.

[Drunkenvalley]

I've seen this kind of thing happen too. More often than not the person you're trying to coach just ends up getting frustrated with all the extra direction you're giving them, it usually ends up as the coach playing via proxy rather than it helping the trainee in any way, shape or form. I'd be prepared to bet not my mortgage but certainly £10 that the Void player would be much more comfortable and play better without Purge watching over his shoulder. At least thats the impression I've always had when I've tried using it to help new players into Dota anyway.

He was coaching a replay. This is irrelevant.

[Lysah]

You are so incredibly salty it's unreal. If these heroes were broken per se, all teams would compete to get them. Newsflash my dear: they DON'T. Why is alliance so good right now?`Because they have a player who is literally the best in the world on two heroes where you need to ban it or you lose, which opens up comfort heroes for the other players. It's why Alliance was so good t3, it's why they are so good now. Bulldog vs trilane and he still manages 17 min radi? You don't beat that.

Yeah I figured the hivemind would catch up to me here. But there really is no reason to think Bulldog is a remarkable lone druid player. He didn't get that radiance because he is some sort of diety, he got that radiance because they just broke every building on the map and rosh with their overpowered heroes and there's no way you can draft to stop it right now. The reason Alliance is good right now isn't because they are remarkable players, it's because they are the only players. There are like three Chen players in the world and Alliance has one of them, there is one lone druid player and he's also on their team. Other teams seem to be focusing their efforts on beating this PvE heavy strategy, rather than just giving in and using it themselves. Picking Luna against Prophet? Even if RTZ was actually good with that hero, it's still picking into your counterpick, there is just so much facepalming going on over here.

Even if we want to disagree about whether or not Alliance is any good at the game, that's not even the main problem. I like Alliance and I like their players, I'm not sad to see them win a tournament. I'm sad to see their cancer lineup win a tournament. It isn't interesting DotA, and I can't believe anyone thinks it is. Alliance won both games before EG could farm a single item, simply by rushing the base and destroying it before they could fight back. There wasn't much counterplay, there weren't any sick moves or awesome team fights or clutch ults, just a bear and some jungle creeps wailing on buildings while EG sat back and watched. You might as well just watch them play against no enemy team at all, it would be just as fun to watch.

There is an overwhelming agreement from the pro scene that this patch is boring as fuck as well. Go watch pretty much anyone stream and they will complain about the meta pretty much every single game they play. 15 minute barracks 90% of the time, and when it isn't game over by 20 it's a long against fighting against a hero like death prophet who is just so absurd right now, which ends up leading to the exact same situation (she just wails on your base and if you fight her you die, so you end up just sitting back watching her take rax for free). Skill is so meaningless right now, all that matters is that you draft push hero after push hero.

Summons and illusions are probably too strong. Chen creeps should probably have increased bounties since he can heal them to full instantly as well as instantly send them back to fountain. Spirit bear already has a high bounty. Illusions are definitely too disposable and there should be some form of penalty to discourage people from just spawning illusions and sending them at towers.

I doubt we'll ever see anything like that though.

Bounties don't matter, they will end the game before you can collect enough for it to matter. And that's assuming you ever actually kill them, since they are all stronger than heroes are at the point in the game in which they are destroying your barracks. They need to flat out reduce the damage summons do to buildings/buff buildings/increase the damage buildings do to summons. Spirit Bear shouldn't be able to kill a tier 2 tower in 5 seconds by itself at level 7 with no items.

[Drunkenvalley]

To be fair, in regards to pros complaining about boring meta, I think they're pretty much going to do that in 98% of patches.

[Lysah]

Yeah that's true, but that's because there's often something seriously wrong with the patch. Leshrac 99% pick/ban rate deserved to be complained about. Rat dota deserved to be complained about. This patch deserves to be complained about. I'm playing less than I ever have in dota2 now I'm pretty sure, and every time I feel the itch and want to log in I remind myself that I'm just going to spend 20 minutes watching the enemy destroy my base while I sit in fountain AFK, better to spend that time trying to actually have fun. Fortunately, unranked games still have a lot of people who just click random and don't care, but after this tournament's results I'm sure there will be a lot more lone druid and prophet in every game. Really, the only saving grace for public dota is that nobody can play Chen.

[Mellomania]

Akke got 74% winrate with chen lol x)
http://www.datdota.com/stats.php?p=p...=&average=true

[Drunkenvalley]

I'm not saying they're wrong in complaining, but it's pretty hard to tell how to rate how bad it is based on their whining. :P

[Lysah]

I rate patch based on my own experiences, their whining just confirms it.

[StrawberryZebra]

Fortunately, unranked games still have a lot of people who just click random and don't care, but after this tournament's results I'm sure there will be a lot more lone druid and prophet in every game. Really, the only saving grace for public dota is that nobody can play Chen.

Its disapointing how many people insist on copying everything the pros are doing just because the pros are doing it. The worst part is they don't even know why they're picking these heroes most of the time, they're just copying what everyone else does. Theres a huge disconnect between the Dota Pros and everyone else, but there seems to be this expectation that you must pick all the same heroes all of the time and copy all of the strats to the letter. On the one hand, it does give games a predictable structure, but on the other hand that same structure makes things boring as hell. Rather than avoid Dota entirely I just move to a different pick mode, it helps liven things up.

Unfortunately for the people in my games, I can play Chen reasonably well and have been ruining games with him. The super pushy kind of Chen and the gank happy kind anyway, I don't claim to be awesome at him, but I can play him well enough to be effective and not do stupid things like just keep feeding my creeps. That being said, I do tend enjoy playing Enchantress, Panda and Warlock anyway so I've probably had a lot more practice at micro than most.

He was coaching a replay. This is irrelevant.

I got the impression it was done live via the coaching tools in game. My mistake.

[Deleted]

I don't think the patch is at fault. Sure the patch buffing most of the Alliance core heroes helped them and is the reason they're here, but realistically its not the only reason they won. Sumail is underperforming badly, losing almost all mid matchups. Fear's playstyle as a 4 support doesn't always fit the match, but it often gets saved by Universe or PPD overperforming. Arteezy gets sacrificed way too often. I think by the time the major comes, all of this will be forgotten...

[Bapestar]

I rate patch based on my own experiences, their whining just confirms it.

Well the people copying the pros are a part of the problem.