1. #21881
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    I don't think echo saber is going to be built on Sven because he's pretty slot starved.
    -snip-
    The real winner is ranked all pick having bans though. A+
    I would have thought that Sven, and other heroes like him who hit hard but slow, would be the ideal candidates for an item like this. It effectively doubles their burst damage output in those short windows where they do reach their target. It has all the stats Str Heroes want too, decent Str, damage and a bit of Int and Mana regen thrown in too for good measure. If Illusions benefit from it, I expect it to be outright broken on CK. Its also nice for melee with built in orbs or bashes, allowing them to trigger it twice in rapid sucession, however the melee heroes with such effects are also limited in number, and they typically build attack speed to capitalise on those effects anyway making the item less appealing.

    As for bans, its a start. Its not what I'd have hoped for, since it randomises which heroes do get banned in the end, but its better than nothing. It does mean that OP picks can slip through the ban phase very easy even if you do try to ban them. With every player voting for a different Hero, you can't skew the votes by putting one hero on there 5 times giving you the best chance of getting them banned. Furthermore since its only a 15 second window it doesn't give you a lot of time to work out what you want to do with your bans as a team, so its not a lot of time to communicate that you don't want anyone to ban a FOTM pick because you want to grab them yourself. I can see it leading to more frustration than effective bans, its not a very tidy method at all.

  2. #21882
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    I think it's more because Sven really doesn't become a threat until he has a blink dagger, and he like Gyro and other heroes who naturally build helms would have their farm pushed back even more by dumping basically 2k gold into echo saber. I suppose you could forgo helm and try to come online earlier for team fighting, but like a lot of melee heroes, without a BKB a properly setup team isn't going to allow him to run around hitting people. He will be snared, kited and CCd without BKB. After initiation, he really doesn't have anyway to stick to targets, and at the point in the game where you would be getting echo saber, I doubt even with the double attack that he would be able to instantly kill a target with that level of farm.

    He still hits hard with his ultimate up, don't get me wrong, but he has zero ways to move effectively around a team fight without a BKB. Warcry is nice, but you're still going to get kited.

  3. #21883
    echo saber is gonna be disgusting on lone druid bear

    also i think with the armor buff, armlet+echo saber might be the WK build. mite be better than radiance..

  4. #21884
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    I suppose you could forgo helm and try to come online earlier for team fighting, but like a lot of melee heroes, without a BKB a properly setup team isn't going to allow him to run around hitting people.
    I was thinking something more along the lines of MoM + Daedalus with the new Sabre. The idea being you'd instagib anyone before they got a chance to react to you, RNG willing. It's been a very long time since I last played, or even saw, Sven in any of my games however, he has some serious glaring weaknesses that are easy to expose. While a Sabre won't fix any of them, "Shotgun Sven" type builds might actually be something workable.

    Honestly though, I used Sven as an example because he's practically the poster boy for hitting slow and hard. I could definately see WK being interested in buying it, same with Slardar, CK and perhaps even DK too. Maybe even a couple of Agi heroes like Slark, who'd really appreciate the extra Str on it and could steal stats faster, or Riki could make use of it. Mind you, if illusions get the benefit of the Sabre attack then it could worth buying on any and all illusion heroes too.

  5. #21885
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    Riki attacks fast, but has room in his kit to make use of echo saber. I mean aside from treads and some cheapo items, most people just get diffusal blade on him, after that you're pretty much open to go with whatever you want. Lots go SnY, basher, but echo saber might be a bridge item after diffusal, and given that diffusal blade just got buffed (40 mana drained on non illusions, up from 25), a double attack is pretty potent, especially considering you're draining even more mana now.

    Honestly Sven is pretty underrated. Incredibly hard to kill, but becomes a nightmare if you give him enough room to farm, essentially the same as Gyro, except Gyro can show up and become effective in team fights by merely TPing and throwing down an ultimate. Depending on your setup (puck, tide hunter, enigma, etc) you can usually land a few kills doing just this then proceed to go back to farming, or you're so far ahead you can just push to win.

    I think echo saber will indeed be good on Riki, and probably Slardar as well. Slardar normally goes blink first, but his attack speed is rather lacking. Echo saber is a good bridge item as it allows him to blink, crush, armor ignore then double attack with all of that juicy negative armor. Essentially allows him to kill heroes in the short combo that he wouldn't have been able to kill before. Then you just proceed to get a BKB or whatever else on him. For sure a couple more heroes that could make use of it, but a lot of heroes already have pretty established build paths that can't really be changed a whole lot.

    On another subject, I think Clinkz is going to be a monster this patch. Lots of ways you can go with him right now with the new items, all of which he can take advantage of. You can be super efficient with his slots, meaning he doesn't give up early/mid game (although Clinkz has never been bad mid game) and just press a really good advantage. You don't have to go to right for a deso, you can just get a blight stone for a mini version of it (with treads, aquila) and go right for orchids. All of this has a pretty smooth build path with lots of cheap items that build into something good, so you aren't putting all your eggs in one basket banking on getting something expensive right away. Can also do treads, aquila, medallion, and just purchase another blightstone for 300 gold, giving you -9 armor on medallion use. Which with decent farm puts you right in that sweet area of killing most supports in the ~15 minute mark in 3-4 seconds of strafe.

  6. #21886
    As scary as the prospect of massive burst damage from Slardar or double back-stabbing Riki's are, the idea of CK making good use of it worries me the most. Getting Rifted into 4 illusions proccing it twice with the bonus damage... No thank you! But on the bright side, if CK does become obnoxious with it, at least we have a chance to ban him.

  7. #21887
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    I don't think echo saber is going to be built on Sven because he's pretty slot starved. It's typical to go treads, helm, blink into BKB. He's an ancient/large camp stacking hero, that effectively avoids team fights for the first ~25 mins, then comes online and destroys everything. Echo saber is good, don't get me wrong but a lot of established builds aren't going to be destroyed because of it. It's biggest implication IMO is early or early mid game, and you have to think about what heroes are going to make the most use of it.

    Hurricane pike seems fantastic on Drow and Sniper, as one of their biggest drawbacks are being initiated on. This gives them 900 range space, and allows them to poke damage back and in turn go for a kill, and or just use that space to possibly retreat. Especially with Drow combined with the cast point being buffed on her gale.

    Some of the items have implications, but I don't think, regardless of how many items are added that it will effect build paths on the majority of heroes. A lot of them are established for a reason and while I see a few heroes building these new items, I doubt we will see them being build all the time.

    Tried Clinkz 3 times tonight in around ~4k MMR group and rushed the new item that builds from orchids, won every game. Huge power spikes, but also the thing I like about the items and what they build from is that it's constant power increases overtime, instead of having to dump 1600 to 2400 gold on single items, which can be risky. The damage is pretty disgusting, and if you're going orchids first (as opposed to deso or medallion) you might as well finish bloodthorn.

    Blight stone is nice, especially for supports early if you're doing an aggro type lane. Has really nice synergy with weaver early, as it does with anybody that lanes with vengeful spirit. Wind lace is cheap, provides 20 movement speed and naturally builds into drums or euuls. Furthermore you can buy another one (again cheap) after you complete euuls to have even more movement speed. The base item itself is nice though and will be nice for roaming supports.

    The real winner is ranked all pick having bans though. A+

    The int spell amplification really isn't that big of a deal when you look at it. Base health increased by 20, and you gain one more health per strength now. It's still a buff overall, but it's not nearly as large as people are making it out to be. It's slight nudge towards spell based characters, while your relative HP against most agility/strength heroes will be higher.

    I like the changes. Even with 50 gold TPs people still don't buy them though.
    Thank you for the insights.

    Played a game Sven with Saber and it went fairly well,fat aoe swings, but i'm fairly sure that Void, TW and Slardar because of the Bash effect.
    I faced a WK with Sabre, beside the obvious monster crits from it from time to time, the amount of self heals were honestly disgusting. He coupled the Sabre with Daedalus, might have done the same, if i want to fish for RNG so be it, even if the multiplier does not stack.

  8. #21888
    5 blademails in every match now lmao

  9. #21889
    Quote Originally Posted by Spryte View Post
    I REALLY do not like this new scan function. It is essentially a risk free way of granting vision, that the enemy can do nothing about. Observer wards are great because it is usually risky to place wards in a good spot that gives you the vision you need. They can also be de-warded, which rewards good supports that can spot enemy warding patterns and predict where they will ward. There is no real way to play around the enemy scan other than the fact that you have one yourself.

    Vision is very important, even more so at higher levels of play, and giving the ability to have vision of the enemy movements for no risk kind of makes the game worse, at least in my opinion. It also maybe will reduce the "uniqueness" (mental block of the right word here) of heros that provide a lot of vision such as Beastmaster or NS.

    The only saving grace for me is that its a relatively long CD of 4.5 minutes (maybe could be a bit longer) and I guess there will be a high skillcap in using it most effectively. What do you guys think?
    It's good that it doesn't grant vision at all then. Read the notes properly next time before crying.

  10. #21890
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    5 blademails in every match now lmao
    While it's obviously not that many, it's really common to see them on any strength hero in the game now, or pretty much anything with a lot of health.

    I really think blademail is too good right now, and needs a longer CD, or it only transfers 75% of the damage taken instead of full damage. It's just too strong now that BKB doesn't counter it (will only counter magic damage reflected if you have BKB up) and it transfers the full effect prior to mitigation.

    Honestly item wise and feature wise, the game hasn't changed a whole lot. Lots of items added, but outside of a couple of heroes, you aren't going to see those items built all the time, except heroes that weren't that popular prior to changes.

    The scan thing, while nice, really isn't that big of a deal and it's pretty easy to forget about. Best use of it right now from the games I've played is to predict smokes, or when you're smoked to scan an area when you're going in blind. It doesn't give you vision and it doesn't tell you how many people are there. For all you know you could be scanning a support laying down a ward, who will be gone by the time you get there.

  11. #21891
    Deleted
    Blademail just needs to cost a lot more. If it built from a Platemail and a Staff of Wizardry it'd be a lot more balanced, IMHO.

  12. #21892
    Pff. "If it was a Shivas it wouldn't be built as much." Well, duh, but we already have an item with that exact recipe. I think they just need to change around the uptime.

  13. #21893
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkenvalley View Post
    Pff. "If it was a Shivas it wouldn't be built as much." Well, duh, but we already have an item with that exact recipe. I think they just need to change around the uptime.
    Staff of Wizardry =! Mystic Staff

    Besides, it's arguably a better item than Shivas in a lot of games right now. Increasing the CD could certainly work, but I still think at the current price point the item is simply far too good even if you halved its current uptime. Armlet is similarly grossly overpowered for the cost right now, while Veil is somewhat more reasonable now that it has 6 less Int on it.

  14. #21894
    While the Armlet does come with some impressive stats for its cost, it also comes with a pretty significant downside, stat adjustments can be compensated by increasing the bleed damage if needed. Blademail on the other hand is all benefit, no downside right now, something needs to change, but I'm not really sure what you could do with it to keep the flavour without pushing it into a niche where its either way too powerful or far too weak.

  15. #21895
    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    Blademail just needs to cost a lot more. If it built from a Platemail and a Staff of Wizardry it'd be a lot more balanced, IMHO.
    http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2322853262
    You'd be amazed how good it is against timbersaw too. Also I did a fantastic job perpetuating 4k shitter stereotypes this game!

  16. #21896
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    As scary as the prospect of massive burst damage from Slardar or double back-stabbing Riki's are, the idea of CK making good use of it worries me the most. Getting Rifted into 4 illusions proccing it twice with the bonus damage... No thank you! But on the bright side, if CK does become obnoxious with it, at least we have a chance to ban him.
    I'm glad echo sabre doesn't work on illusions or special attacks and only resets the swingtime.. shit would be crazy

  17. #21897
    i kinda like the new mirana aghs. makes farming for late game funny, just stand and pick off last hits between free starfalls.

  18. #21898
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullfu View Post
    It's good that it doesn't grant vision at all then. Read the notes properly next time before crying.
    Apparently giving my opinion means im crying. Ok.

    Anyway, the wording only stated that it would indicate if an enemy was within a certain area, not how it indicated that. After testing it out in game its not so bad. People that know how will make good use of it, and those that don't end up wasting it for their team. Will be interesting.

  19. #21899
    Quote Originally Posted by Spryte View Post
    Apparently giving my opinion means im crying. Ok.

    Anyway, the wording only stated that it would indicate if an enemy was within a certain area, not how it indicated that. After testing it out in game its not so bad. People that know how will make good use of it, and those that don't end up wasting it for their team. Will be interesting.
    The wording specifically said that it won't give you vision, that it won't tell you how many enemies are there, and that it won't work in the Roshan pit. So yeah, read the notes properly before crying about it.

  20. #21900
    Deleted
    Hurricane Pike is the sleeper OP item this patch. As soon as people realize that it has enough stats on it that you can justify buying it on more or less every core in the game that item is going to be everywhere and teamfights are going to look like a bunch of drunk toddlers on ice skates.

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