1. #3101
    Quote Originally Posted by Finear View Post
    why?
    stomping is as fun as even games for me
    Meh...I find the mast majority of games are boring for one reason or another. Either your team loses so bad you spend 20 minutes running circles around your final tier towers because they have control over both jungles and you have no outside towers left to defend or you win so hard the game is over in 20 minutes and the enemy team is running circles around their final tier towers while you kill an undefended base, basically playing the game by yourself.

    The alternatives are close games, the ones you win in which you had to try way too damn hard and go 13-2-26 as Tiny and still barely manage to pull off a win which just leaves you pissed off that your teammates were so bad they almost cost you what should've been an easy game, or the ones you lose in which you're doing everything you can do, maybe you kill 4 of them in a team fight but 3 of them buy back and push down your rax while your team doesn't have the gold to buyback to defend so you lose the game because you won the team fight (I actually had a game where we had lost a lane but had wiped their team and had 2 people left pushing a different lane to even the score and maybe even throne it, until all 5 of them bought back, sold their items for BoT and teleport to our base and destroyed the tree - talk about rage).

    Very rarely is a game legitimately fair without feeders/horribly outmatched players on one team or the other and therefore fun to win or lose. I don't enjoy stomps at all and will quit after two of them in a row just like I will quit after being stomped twice in a row. If I wanted 20-0 wins I would just go play bots.

  2. #3102
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Oklahoma, USA
    Posts
    14,844
    Quote Originally Posted by Finear View Post
    why?
    stomping is as fun as even games for me
    The first time, sure. But when you're in the third game in a row where your team is up 20-4 with all outer towers down and it's not even 20 minutes in... it gets a little boring. There's no challenge, you know? Happens a lot when we stack up, I think because as bad as me and my buddy's MMR is, my buddy's buddies' MMR is even worse, so it pairs us with people at their level more often than not.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-30 at 04:52 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Very rarely is a game legitimately fair without feeders/horribly outmatched players on one team or the other and therefore fun to win or lose. I don't enjoy stomps at all and will quit after two of them in a row just like I will quit after being stomped twice in a row. If I wanted 20-0 wins I would just go play bots.
    Those games are as rare as diamonds, but they're worth it. Had an almost 70 minute game we lost today... I think we lost mostly because our entire team played poorly, but it was a pretty close game for the most part, we did smoke ganks and everything. But most games tend to be fairly lopsided one way or the other. I'm sad to hear that's the case even at high MMR... I was hoping that as my MMR gets higher I'd have more even games than uneven games.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  3. #3103
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Meh...I find the mast majority of games are boring for one reason or another.
    Not to sound cliche here, but maybe it's time to take a break?

  4. #3104
    Stomping isn't really fun to me when you're just clearly outmatching your opponents. However it's not always black and white that because you stomp a team it's only because you outskill them heavily - evenly matched games can turn into a stomps when you start snowballing and instead of pulling it together and attempting some kind of recovery you enemy lapse into a state where they spend their time raging at each other and neglect to play as a team. When queuing with friends I've sometimes ended up getting stomped by another group and then proceeded to stomp them just as hard in the next game.

    I made an alt account to play with some friends who are almost or completely new to the genre to avoid pulling them too high up the matchmaking - let's just say I feel rather bad for doing it, but at least they learn better than they would if they got killed 15 times in first 10 minutes and constantly raged at by random teammates. But hey, "matchmaking doesn't work" so maybe the games would have been the same on my main account, right?

  5. #3105
    Brewmaster juzalol's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    1,285
    I'm not sure if it's intended but the centaur ulti also seems to affect Chen creeps. Just the creeps alone
    can easily gank people when they rush in with 522 movespeed and stun on impact.

    Surely it's a minor thing when compared to other stuff that makes centaur super strong, but I found it funny
    to be able to solo gank people with couple stunner creeps while having myself on a lane.

  6. #3106
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    Your post is hilarious...
    pro tip: the burst that makes Trax a easy target is magical

    No one is arguing late game potential of those two heroes btw.
    Please think before you post. Invoker and Drow has identical base strength and strength gain. Drow has more armor. So at worst nuked from 100 to 0 they are the same. Realistically you would have auto attack damage which is mitigated by armor. Now back to the hilarious part

  7. #3107
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Oklahoma, USA
    Posts
    14,844
    Quote Originally Posted by juzalol View Post
    I'm not sure if it's intended but the centaur ulti also seems to affect Chen creeps. Just the creeps alone
    can easily gank people when they rush in with 522 movespeed and stun on impact.

    Surely it's a minor thing when compared to other stuff that makes centaur super strong, but I found it funny
    to be able to solo gank people with couple stunner creeps while having myself on a lane.
    I believe it's intentional. I know that Drow's aura affects things like Visage's familiars. Almost makes them worth using!
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  8. #3108
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    I know that Drow's aura affects things like Visage's familiars. Almost makes them worth using!
    Familiars not worth using? I've heard this one before, and it was a stupid thing to say even then. Guess you didn't learn anything.

  9. #3109
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Almost makes them worth using!
    l2micro...
    there is huge potential in familiars you just need to know how to use them
    global ganks
    rune control
    chasing

  10. #3110
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Oklahoma, USA
    Posts
    14,844
    Quote Originally Posted by Finear View Post
    l2micro...
    there is huge potential in familiars you just need to know how to use them
    global ganks
    rune control
    chasing
    And they're terrible at all of that relative to any other hero that uses summons extensively. They aren't useless, but they're pretty awful compared to literally every other summon except maybe warlock's golem.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  11. #3111
    Quote Originally Posted by Jangri- View Post
    Not to sound cliche here, but maybe it's time to take a break?
    I tell myself that every day, but inevitably I log back in. Actually PLAYING the game is very fun, controlling your hero and farming gold and getting strong and feeling good. It's the team play and the meta game that gets old fast, for me. I still have fun omnislashing people. Mostly I consider the MMR system very broken, still.

    @Manni
    Stomping players you know are good can be fun, but even then it's over so fast that it's over so fast. I was 2 man queueing with my most common mate and we got queued against a guy we recognized from DotA1 public leagues, he had something like 96% wins over 1400 games in the league we played in at the time. He always team stacked and was just pub stomping but hey, still a good player. The first game was pretty close and we managed to win, so when we got them AGAIN the next game we decided just to screw around and 5 man ganked their carry/leader mid at level 1. Ended up going top and killing wolf in the jungle and I was something like 9-0-6 as Jugg in the first 8 minutes of the game. They ended up pulling their entire team top lane to try to stop us but we just killed them over and over because the game had already gotten out of hand at that point. One of the most funny games I've ever played, smashing players I know are fantastic in a way I haven't smashed anyone in a long time, but alas, they forfeited at like 14 minutes and that was the end of the fun =p
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-10-30 at 01:29 PM.

  12. #3112
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    And they're terrible at all of that relative to any other hero that uses summons extensively.
    >flying units
    >3s stun (4.5 with agha)

  13. #3113
    EG.Maelk just went lothar's gyro against me.

    Soon everyone will be buying it and I will have to start arguing it's a bad item! If a pro player does it it must be okay, I think we can all safely agree that Lothar's gyro is the new best build.

    Edit:
    And they seriously just made a halloween mini game for DotA2. Time to take a break.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-10-31 at 03:35 AM.

  14. #3114
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Oklahoma, USA
    Posts
    14,844
    Quote Originally Posted by Finear View Post
    >flying units
    >3s stun (4.5 with agha)
    >fragile
    >high bounty
    >slow
    >neutral creeps are automatically hostile
    >low DPS
    >long cooldown on stun
    >stun pulls double duty as heal
    >long resummon time
    >tiny attack range
    >tiny sight range

    It all combines to result in familiars that require an enormous amount of micro for considerably less gain than pretty much all other controlled units. They don't provide auras, they can't tank for creeps or heroes, their DPS is awful outside their first few shots, they're effectively melee and blind, they're worth considerably more gold than any other summoned unit, they're incredibly fragile, and neutral creeps will automatically aggro them. Their stun is great, but it has a pretty long cast time and it pulls double duty as the only way to heal them, and it has a fairly long cooldown.

    It wouldn't be an issue, but Visage himself requires a lot of micro because his role is to hover around in teamfights while popping off his skills as often as possible. His passive makes him virtually impossible to burst down, but it's useless against any kind of sustained attack, so you can't just attack-move him in or he'll get shit on. He requires constant supervision and micromanagement to stay in range of all his spells but out of easy attack range for the enemy because Visage is going to be a priority target if they have any sort of idea of his capabilities if allowed to hang out in a fight like he wants to (he's like Dirge in that respect.)

    Familiars aren't like other summons. You can't just right-click them on something and let them be like Lycan's wolves, and while they're considerably easier to position than Chen/Enchantress creeps, they're also a hell of a lot more fragile. Because they're flying, they can't be used to bodyblock (which is a major thing other summons can do), and because neutral creeps just seem to hate them, you have to be really careful about how you're flying them from place to place unless you want them to get there at half health - again, this goes back to the "requires way more micro than other summons," thing.

    They're also effectively melee range and have virtually no vision radius. You can't use them for scouting and just flying them around in the enemy jungle blind (hah!) is usually a really great way to feed the enemy 100-200 gold. Level 6 summons can be instantly killed by Tinker, Bane, or Omniknight (all can do 300+ pure damage) and all familiars at all levels can only soak a few hits from even supports; carries can probably kill them in one or two. That's obviously a problem for any summoned unit, but familiars reward considerably more bounty than any other except warlock golem, even the biggest Chen/Enchantress creeps are only worth about 75-85 gold and they're a hell of a lot tankier to compensate. And warlock's golem has at minimum three times the HP and five times the armor of a familiar, and warlock scepter upgrade reduces the bounty.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  15. #3115
    Hi guys,

    Are there still people in this thread giving away keys ?

    One can only play dota 1 so long lol. The new updates are lots of fun though.

    Thanks!

  16. #3116
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    They aren't useless,
    Then why would you call them useless?

    You yourself admit Familiars aren't like other summons, so why compare them to to Alpha Wolves instead of looking at their strenghts? And they barely require more micro than Necronomicon summons - Because they don't expire, a lot of the time you can just hide them where you think you will need them until you need them and leave your enemy guessing which lane they're at, and in combat they only require a few actions to do their job.

    However there's plenty of things you can do with familiars that you can't do with any other unit in the game. Can you send Alpha Wolves from offlane to your mid or safe lane to offer decent protection against ganks without your enemy knowing it? How many other units give you teamfight presence across the map? How many summons fly, allowing you to anti-juke or flank enemies in teamfights or be hidden in a bunch of trees?

    Familiars aren't for pushing or farming, they're about burst damage and their stun. You call their "dps" low, but with their 0.4 second BAT, 2 level 1 familiars together dish out 500 physical damage in roughly 2 seconds after which they're worth 150 more damage over the next 2 seconds and/or another 120 magic damage and two stuns. Familiars have easy time sticking to a target slowed by Grace Chill or any other disable, are phenomenal for ganking and they're what allows Visage to pretty effortlessly take down a lot of heroes solo as they're guaranteed to generate you full stacks of Soul Assumption in a blink of an eye. Not to mention that if you're not rushing to throw them away, you can actually resummon Familiars in an important teamfight for refreshed damage stacks and new stuns.

    Familiars can be killed with some focused attacks or a few abilities, but in the context of a teamfight they still help your cause. Enemies focusing your familiars aren't focusing on your heroes, and a Laser used to shoot one down isn't used to shoot a hero on your side. Either situation can help you win a teamfight unless you were a tool and flew them in before either team had initiated. The only situation in which Familiars should be "free kills" is when you lost a team fight and your enemy can sit around and wait for Stone Forms to expire, but even then if you head straight for trees it's very probable you can save one or both of them.

    If you're still having hard time conceptualizing the utility of Familiars, think of them as a global flying Laguna Blade + LSA.

    @Lysah Pretty sure Black^ went SB on Gyro in WB finals in Starladder LAN finals against Na´Vi. The Halloween map is alright but I'm going to be missed if this means +1 week on waiting for Gorgon. Which it probably does.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2012-10-31 at 06:29 AM.

  17. #3117
    Free items man =p
    Mythical panda weapon rare morph hat and some other garbage so far. Good enough for me.

    Anyway, familiars are bad because flak cannon immediately counters them. You pick visage they pick gyro and it's already 4v5. I just can't get over it, I won a game as gyro because enemy visage went scepter. The gold I got from him was obscene, I think he fed me over 2000g through the course of the game.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-10-31 at 06:39 AM.

  18. #3118
    Yeah, Flak Cannon and Tidebringer (and maybe BB) do counter them pretty hard. It would obviously still be possible to wait for FC to expire before sending them in or hunting for supports are the side of the fight, but when a lot of people play like that guy it's not very amazing that people seem to think Visage is a bad hero.

  19. #3119
    Yeah it wasn't a great game. Oh look, Visage ulted again, +300g.

    Personally, I think they should be changed to be a /attacks health bar similar to snowball rocket or supernova. 4 attacks or something so they can't die to incidental AoE, spells like laser, or people with 600 damage. That would make them easier for supports to kill and harder for carries, and it would make Visage a top pick.

  20. #3120
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Oklahoma, USA
    Posts
    14,844
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Then why would you call them useless?

    You yourself admit Familiars aren't like other summons, so why compare them to to Alpha Wolves instead of looking at their strenghts? And they barely require more micro than Necronomicon summons - Because they don't expire, a lot of the time you can just hide them where you think you will need them until you need them and leave your enemy guessing which lane they're at, and in combat they only require a few actions to do their job.
    All of which require timing and positioning, and hiding them in trees doesn't work if the enemy knows how Visage works. Hell, just buying a quelling blade (or having anyone with tree-destroying spells) can pretty much eliminate the majority of safe hiding spots for them.

    However there's plenty of things you can do with familiars that you can't do with any other unit in the game. Can you send Alpha Wolves from offlane to your mid or safe lane to offer decent protection against ganks without your enemy knowing it? How many other units give you teamfight presence across the map? How many summons fly, allowing you to anti-juke or flank enemies in teamfights or be hidden in a bunch of trees?
    Flying is a double edged sword because it means you can't bodyblock, which is fairly significant. Granted you can drop a stun on someone, but that's got a cooldown and in almost all cases they don't move fast enough to outrun someone and then drop a stun on them. Using familiars to counter juking is questionable because their vision radius is extremely small. To effectively counter juking they would need to be following the target to begin with.

    Familiars aren't for pushing or farming, they're about burst damage and their stun. You call their "dps" low, but with their 0.4 second BAT, 2 level 1 familiars together dish out 500 physical damage in roughly 2 seconds after which they're worth 150 more damage over the next 2 seconds and/or another 120 magic damage and two stuns. Familiars have easy time sticking to a target slowed by Grace Chill or any other disable, are phenomenal for ganking and they're what allows Visage to pretty effortlessly take down a lot of heroes solo as they're guaranteed to generate you full stacks of Soul Assumption in a blink of an eye. Not to mention that if you're not rushing to throw them away, you can actually resummon Familiars in an important teamfight for refreshed damage stacks and new stuns.
    The only impressive damage I've ever seen out of familiars is due to Drow aura, which I doubt will ever make it into Captains Mode. Their burst potential is impressive, but they're so fragile it's like saying Dirge's zombies do a ton of damage as long as people don't attack the Tombstone.

    Familiars can be killed with some focused attacks or a few abilities, but in the context of a teamfight they still help your cause. Enemies focusing your familiars aren't focusing on your heroes, and a Laser used to shoot one down isn't used to shoot a hero on your side. Either situation can help you win a teamfight unless you were a tool and flew them in before either team had initiated. The only situation in which Familiars should be "free kills" is when you lost a team fight and your enemy can sit around and wait for Stone Forms to expire, but even then if you head straight for trees it's very probable you can save one or both of them.
    Yeah, I wouldn't expect Tinker to blast a familiar in a teamfight, but if they know where the familiars are cooping it's not hard to ambush them. Omniknight will almost certainly kill one or both of them without even trying since being close enough to attack/stun means they're easily inside Purification's blast zone. Come to think of it, Omniknight in general seems like he'd be a strong pick against Visage since Repel blocks both Grave Chill and Soul Assumption and his ulti and heal either negate or outright kill the familiars.

    Yeah it wasn't a great game. Oh look, Visage ulted again, +300g.

    Personally, I think they should be changed to be a /attacks health bar similar to snowball rocket or supernova. 4 attacks or something so they can't die to incidental AoE, spells like laser, or people with 600 damage. That would make them easier for supports to kill and harder for carries, and it would make Visage a top pick.
    Interesting concept, though I'd guess that'd still make them really fragile against heroes with high attack speeds. How would it handle creeps attacking them?

    The only change I really think they need right away is to have fucking neutral creeps stop randomly taking a shot at them as they fly by. Crossing the map with them safely is a real chore.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •