1. #8001
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Why not? He still does enormous damage even with very few items. I guess he doesn't come with a free BKB or something that scales as ridiculously well as Flak Cannon, though... or a bear.
    First off, Clinkz needs levels. He needs his ultimate skilled, his arrows maxed and at least one point in Strafe and Windwalk at higher levels. Where do you want to lane him and how do you want him to function as a hero? Carry? Ganker? Support? You can put him him easy lane and go aggressive tri lane and rely on your strong early game to win you the game. But if opponent survives that, Clinkz doesn't really stand a chance against most carries late game and he is overly reliant on having a creep and can only really fight during that time. And Clinkz playstyle usually revovles around roaming around the map, farming opponent woods, picking off heroes. This doesn't work against 5 man doto so well. And in team fights, Clinkz isn't nearly as strong as other heroes.

  2. #8002
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Clinkz has no place in a meta that favors 5 man doto.
    And Anti-Mage and Weaver do?

    Clinkz isn't even a particularly bad team fight hero compared to many right clickers, with his invis and speed you can get into position to kill 2 heroes from the sidelines of a clash the moment they spend their disables on the rest of your team or you can just man up and kill a high priority target or two before they can get you.

  3. #8003
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    And Anti-Mage and Weaver do?

    Clinkz isn't even a particularly bad team fight hero compared to many right clickers, with his invis and speed you can get into position to kill 2 heroes from the sidelines of a clash the moment they spend their disables on the rest of your team or you can just man up and kill a high priority target or two before they can get you.
    As far as I'm concerned, Anti-Mage isn't very popular right now just because of this. Did you see TongFu vs LGD? TongFu were playing from behind right from the start and all they could do was see their towers fall and hope AM gets farmed. Now, most teams don't want to put themselves in such a disadvantage from the start. But at least Anti-Mage has split push, which Clinkz lacks.

    What Clinkz also doesn't have is farming ability compared to other right clickers. Catching a Clinkz in a team fight is way easier than catching a Weaver. And as said earlier, unlike Clinkz, Weaver doesn't rely on roaming the map and finding kills. And Clinkz is still overly reliant on a creep to be able to fight.
    Last edited by mmoc9f3c8526e6; 2013-05-19 at 12:38 PM.

  4. #8004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    As far as I'm concerned, Anti-Mage isn't very popular right now just because of this. Did you see TongFu vs LGD? TongFu were playing from behind right from the start and all they could do was see their towers fall and hope AM gets farmed. Now, most teams don't want to put themselves in such a disadvantage from the start. But at least Anti-Mage has split push, which Clinkz lacks.
    Instead, Clinkz has "hi I show up out of nowhere and ignore backdoor protection and oh looks like you just lost 50% HP on that t3 tower before anyone could even finish channeling a TP." Clinkz basically has 522 ms once he has 4 points into his windwalk so he can move around very quickly.

    Also, will the meta ever shift away from teamfight carries much? Like, Gyro and Luna both have enormous teamfight presence and also obliterate creep waves etc very quickly. Why would those heroes ever fall out of popularity? I guess a Luna with 6 slots does less DPS than an Anti-Mage with 6 slots, but she does damage to more or less an entire team with each attack while AM can only hit one target.

    Sylla's limited to one target, but he has the lolbear, and he has some additional utility in that the bear does a lot of damage to buildings. I guess Tiny would be another single-target monster, but again has the huge bonus damage vs buildings.

    I guess I just don't see the value in doing a 4-protect-1 strategy anymore when there are so many carries that don't really require much farm before they start being really dangerous - Luna, Gyro, Naix, Sylla, even Weaver and Slark. Why was 4-protect-1 popular to begin with? Were people just too focused on the Anti-Mage/Morphling thing, or did the currently popular carries get buffs at some point to make them more attractive? Naix's BKB got its duration extended, didn't it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  5. #8005
    Gyro gets dunked by a hero like SB, you just never see SB get picked.

  6. #8006
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Also, will the meta ever shift away from teamfight carries much?

    Why was 4-protect-1 popular to begin with? Were people just too focused on the Anti-Mage/Morphling thing, or did the currently popular carries get buffs at some point to make them more attractive?
    I know you don't read my posts (as you told me so after ignoring me on quakenet after little to no provocation), but here's your basic explanation:

    In Dota, there are three basic forms of strategies: Push, teamfight and ganking. These counter one another much like rock/paper/scissors.

    In order to beat a team that five-mans down towers at fifteen minutes, you pick (split-)push heroes. Get Leshrac, Furion, Broodmother, Rhasta, Pugna, Enigma, etc. Every time they gather up to five-man and take a tower, you take a tower in the other two lanes. Contrary to popular belief, you don't have to fight a team when their teamfight is much better than yours.

    How do you beat a (split-)pushing lineup? Ganking. As a rule of thumb, the closer the enemy is to your tower, the easier they are to gank. Ward up in spots where you'll see early on that they are going to push. Rotate your supports. Contrary to popular belief, supports do not have to sit behind your carry while he farms. If there's no enemy heroes there, go elsewhere. Make sure to have a hero in the middle lane that is prone to ganking (Queen of Pain, Pudge, Night Stalker, Storm Spirit, Nyx Assassin, Batrider, Tiny, etc). Get items like Urn of Shadows and Medallion of Courage on fitting heroes. Pick up Magic Sticks (you don't even have to upgrade them!), and perhaps even a Rod of Atos.

    Finally, to counter a ganking lineup: mTw dota. When you run as five, there are no heroes that can be ganked. Usually you need a few items before five-manning actually becomes viable: Arcane Boots, Mekansm, Drums of Endurance, Pipe of Insight, and Vladimir's Offering. You want at least your Mekansm and a pair of Arcane Boots, but it depends on your heroes and what you're up against (as everything with Dota). Another viable way to counter ganking (and teamfighting too) is through turtling. This hasn't been popular for a long-ass time, and I can't imagine it being popular again anytime soon.

    While these three strategies are far from everything you can plan (I'd argue that it isn't even a fair representation of basic drafting strats), I believe these three are the most basic forms of what you referred to "meta-game" in your post. Heroes are often popular because you can run them in varied strats. A hero like Gyrocopter can fit well with your ganking lineup, it can work in your pushing lineup and it can work fantastically in your teamfight lineup. He's a tier one pick not because the hero is broken, but because you don't know where he's going to be, or what strategy the team is going for. So can Lifestealer, Rubick, Furion, Magnus, Clockwerk, Dark Seer, and most support heroes. Notice a relation? You should, because they're all one of the most picked and banned heroes during the last week. Other heroes like Ezalor and Wisp do not typically fit into all of these three, but they are when paired with the right heroes (Ezalor can help gank by supplying mana to the ganker as well as intitiating the gank through Illuminate, Wisp can stay behind while fivemanning, supplying regen and offering your team the ability to pick off potentially splitpushing heroes). Some other heroes that do not typically fit into all three are Naga Siren, Invoker, Broodmother, Lycanthrope, Anti Mage, and Sand King. There are a ton more, but these are the ones that have been popular iirc.

    Heroes also rise and fall in popularity because people are dumb. Remember when Bounty Hunter was a tier one off-laner? Turns out that you needed a pair of sentry wards and at least one (sometimes two) good phasing hero. Who would have thought? People started doing just this and, lo and behold, Bounty Hunter fell off. This does not typically apply to heroes that are good at all three aspects of basic strategy, but more to heroes that fit into two (BH has a difficult time being a pusher unless you build items to make him one, and basing your strategy on needing your offlane hero to get farm isn't usually the most bright idea). Contrary to popular belief, a hero does not need to get buffed/nerfed to rise/fall in popularity.

    The reason teamfight carries are popular (and probably always will be) is because you will end up teamfighting sooner or later, regardless of what strategy you play. Few strats work without them, and the ones that do work with them. Come to think of it, aren't all carries team fight carries? Perhaps you meant something different, I don't know.

    As a final note I would like to note (lol) that the only thing I actually looked up before writing this post was the most picked and banned heroes in the past week. As such, I'm probably wrong in a few small things. This is simply a condensed summary (on a basic level) of what I've learned while drafting in -cm. Since there are five hero picks and five hero bans on each team, strategies are never this black and white. You pick one or two pushing heroes, one or two team fighting lineups, and one or two ganking heroes. Make sure you have reliable stuns and bam. You have yourself a good draft.

  7. #8007
    No that was pretty solid. I tried to point out before that top tier heroes might simply be often picked because they ARE balanced, in the literal definition of the word - they fit well into most, if not all, lineups. That was a good explanation, though.

  8. #8008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    No that was pretty solid. I tried to point out before that top tier heroes might simply be often picked because they ARE balanced, in the literal definition of the word - they fit well into most, if not all, lineups. That was a good explanation, though.
    So why would you pick any other heroes, then? If you can pick Gyro or Luna or Sylla or Naix, why would you ever pick Spectre or Medusa or Morphling? If a hero like Gyro has versatile laning, can hard carry and gank and push, why would you pick a hero that can only do one role?
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  9. #8009
    Because everything has a counter, some counters are just very out of style right now (like using SB to jerk around gyrocopter). You can easily beat a team centered around Luna with one centered around Morph or Medusa, the pros just don't seem to be in the mood for that style right now, though. The worst part is, most of the lower tiers of the community are just as unimaginative, if not way worse, and so you won't see any innovative counter lineups in pubs until the pros figure it out - which only adds to the image that certain heroes are too strong. Even if you pick Medusa to counter Luna in a pub, your team can easily let you down by not building the team around your strategy.

    All in all, Gyrocopter only excels when he has room to sit back and spam flak cannon. Introduce a shadow blade SB to the game and he will go from full health to dead before he even has a chance to pop his BKB. Problem solved. Early game, where he is really hard to fight toe-to-toe because of rocket barrage, SB gets 1100 health with nothing but treads and can just tank it and kill him. Suddenly scary hero has to hide and can only farm if he's on top of towers.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2013-05-19 at 08:57 PM.

  10. #8010
    I don't understand the point you're trying to make, PizzaSHARK. Do you have one?

  11. #8011
    So many good games in this qualify, can't wait for the next one. Nice to see mouz there.

  12. #8012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Because everything has a counter, some counters are just very out of style right now (like using SB to jerk around gyrocopter). You can easily beat a team centered around Luna with one centered around Morph or Medusa, the pros just don't seem to be in the mood for that style right now, though. The worst part is, most of the lower tiers of the community are just as unimaginative, if not way worse, and so you won't see any innovative counter lineups in pubs until the pros figure it out - which only adds to the image that certain heroes are too strong. Even if you pick Medusa to counter Luna in a pub, your team can easily let you down by not building the team around your strategy.

    All in all, Gyrocopter only excels when he has room to sit back and spam flak cannon. Introduce a shadow blade SB to the game and he will go from full health to dead before he even has a chance to pop his BKB. Problem solved. Early game, where he is really hard to fight toe-to-toe because of rocket barrage, SB gets 1100 health with nothing but treads and can just tank it and kill him. Suddenly scary hero has to hide and can only farm if he's on top of towers.
    SB does seem heavily underused, which doesn't really make sense... seems like he'd be a good pick in place of a Naix in a lot of lineups. He does need some farm... a BKB and either hyperstone or MoM... but so does Naix (armlet and/or orchid.) He also has that insane 29 base STR, giving him huge dmg and early HP, and I guess he could even use Charge of Darkness to escape kill attempts if there's no disable to stop it.

    To be honest, I've been surprised at the more or less total lack of Night Stalker. It seems like every time I play him, he's always useful. You can give him an armlet and BKB and he can be a semi-carry, or you can play him almost as a utility/support character, going for aura items and a scepter with gem. Void does a lot of damage on a short cooldown and low mana cost, and his silence is flat-out amazing. I guess he's a little dependent on time of day, but only until he gets some XP. Seems like he could fit into that sort of "utility carry" role that Naix seems to be the poster child for these days.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  13. #8013
    The whole case with SB and Night Stalker are that there are less gamble heroes to pick than them to be honest, that was always been the case, its not like the main complain of Dota is that tournaments always seem to have the same heroes..and for a reason.

    Its not that SB isnt good, but he isnt as good as others, of course with such an RNG stun, or Night Stalker, there is risk and gamble involved compared to other heroes.

    Then again many things changed since i actively played Dota, and since i restarted the last few months maybe things have changed that i am wrong, but oh well ;D

  14. #8014
    The risk with NS is that you let the game last for 50 minutes and he becomes nonfactor. Even with items and at night his late game damage is just pathetic in comparison to most heroes...mostly due to how little farm you will likely be getting if you do your job. I've seen many a Nightstalker (including myself) start out with 6, 7, 12 kills and still end up hiding in the back of team fights late game.

    SB will still have an AoE stun with charge and a target bash that goes through BKB, even if nothing else, he is useful for that. Black hole? Meet nether strike (and that's not even to mention the movespeed aura that can't be underestimated).

  15. #8015
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    The risk with NS is that you let the game last for 50 minutes and he becomes nonfactor. Even with items and at night his late game damage is just pathetic in comparison to most heroes...mostly due to how little farm you will likely be getting if you do your job. I've seen many a Nightstalker (including myself) start out with 6, 7, 12 kills and still end up hiding in the back of team fights late game.

    SB will still have an AoE stun with charge and a target bash that goes through BKB, even if nothing else, he is useful for that. Black hole? Meet nether strike (and that's not even to mention the movespeed aura that can't be underestimated).
    I remember someone telling me that the best way to fix Bloodseeker would be to make Thirst affect teammates. I'm pretty sure he was saying it with a straight face, too.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  16. #8016
    This game needs more Timbersaw.

  17. #8017
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    This game needs less trees.
    Fixed that bit.

  18. #8018
    Deleted
    So tired of disconnects and abandonments....what a torture and a waste of time,the consequences for such behaviour need to be much stricter.
    And connection checks need to be extended to the first 3 minutes of the game.How often do people disconnect right after the picks?It's baffling.

    I'm keeping my reports for people who abandon now.There's nothing else that's more disturbing.
    Last edited by mmocba4f7a59a4; 2013-05-20 at 05:55 AM.

  19. #8019
    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    I'm keeping my reports for people who abandon now.There's nothing else that's more disturbing.
    Sorry to break this to you but the reports aren't meant to be used on people who abandon. There's a system in place that tracks leaves so it can automatically suspend players who leave too much, you don't need to put a report in for it. Your reports are for people who behave in disruptive manner, not for people who have to leave a game for whatever reason.

  20. #8020
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Sorry to break this to you but the reports aren't meant to be used on people who abandon. There's a system in place that tracks leaves so it can automatically suspend players who leave too much, you don't need to put a report in for it. Your reports are for people who behave in disruptive manner, not for people who have to leave a game for whatever reason.
    Yeah, I'm always surprised at people telling others to report a guy that leaves.

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