1. #9801
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    That's odd, I don't really remember losing a 2v2 lane to them. Maybe if people soak all Illuminates, I guess.
    I'm sure all four of you had near equal skill and that the KotL/PL knew how to play a safe lane.

  2. #9802
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    KotL/PL isn't a hard lane to beat.
    KotL/PL is also one of the worst combos in the pro scene with a win rate of 52%.

  3. #9803
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lillpapps View Post
    KotL/PL is also one of the worst combos in the pro scene with a win rate of 52%.
    Since 6.78 (where both of them were directly nerfed), their individual winrates are 47 and 43% respectively. Their combined winrate sits at around 44%.

    Numbers courtesy of datdota (thank you Longview)

  4. #9804
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    I'm sure all four of you had near equal skill and that the KotL/PL knew how to play a safe lane.
    Doesn't really matter. My point is, KotL/PL are very weak early on. Neither hero has much presence without levels. Illuminates from even a good KotL player aren't very hard to avoid even without well placed wards and it's not very hard for 2 heroes to pressure PL away from the creep wave. You lose the matchup by standing back and letting them both effortlessly hit level 4-5 or soaking too much damage from early Illuminate spam. You win it by abusing the fact that PL is just a squishy melee hero and KotL is an even squishier int hero with no presence aside from Illuminate.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2013-08-14 at 08:02 PM.

  5. #9805
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Doesn't really matter. My point is, KotL/PL are very weak early on. Neither hero has much presence without levels. Illuminates from even a good KotL player aren't very hard to avoid even without well placed wards and it's not very hard for 2 heroes to pressure PL away from the creep wave. You lose the matchup by standing back and letting them both effortlessly hit level 4-5 or soaking too much damage from early Illuminate spam. You win it by abusing the fact that PL is just a squishy melee hero and KotL is an even squishier int hero with no presence aside from Illuminate.
    Lance + Chakra is a much better way to play the lane.

  6. #9806
    PL can't farm while he's spamming lance on heroes. If he spams lance on creeps he gets one, maybe two creeps a wave if he's lucky and the enemy free farms and keeps the wave at their tower the entire time. Lance isn't scary and PL isn't scary. KotL is even less scary. Both garbage heroes, both are sticks in the wind. Neither will be picked much longer. KotL actually got a lot of competitive attention in D1 but it was not because of heroes like PL, it was because of recall, leak, and his AoE disarm/knockback. Chakra is an afterthought and not the reason you should pick him.

    Helpful hint, letting enemy heroes free farm for 35 minutes is a great way to lose, no matter who they picked. You even saw this in TI3.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2013-08-14 at 10:06 PM.

  7. #9807
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    PL can't farm while he's spamming lance on heroes.
    ...what? Lance has an extremely long range, and Lancer has a cast point of 0.3 seconds. Surely you can just pick a moment when no creeps are going to die in the next 0.3 seconds to throw your lance?

  8. #9808
    Quote Originally Posted by Saladin456 View Post
    ...what? Lance has an extremely long range, and Lancer has a cast point of 0.3 seconds. Surely you can just pick a moment when no creeps are going to die in the next 0.3 seconds to throw your lance?
    you gotta account for turn rate, twice, bro!

  9. #9809
    Quote Originally Posted by Saladin456 View Post
    ...what? Lance has an extremely long range, and Lancer has a cast point of 0.3 seconds. Surely you can just pick a moment when no creeps are going to die in the next 0.3 seconds to throw your lance?
    It doesn't matter when creeps die when you can't get close to them. Ergo, you lasthit with lance or don't CS at all. Lance spam isn't a bad alternative to Illuminate spam because it at least can't fail, but it's still less efficient and always only hits one target.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2013-08-14 at 10:41 PM.

  10. #9810
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    It doesn't matter when creeps die when you can't get close to them. Ergo, you lasthit with lance or don't CS at all. Lance spam isn't a bad alternative to Illuminate spam because it at least can't fail, but it's still less efficient and always only hits one target.
    So you're saying that PL is never able to approach a creep wave. I'm just gonna leave.

  11. #9811
    Quote Originally Posted by Saladin456 View Post
    So you're saying that PL is never able to approach a creep wave. I'm just gonna leave.
    Don't forget to abandon to make it easier for everyone. I can get you a replay next time I get around to beating a bunch of tryhards and you'll see that a shitty 500hp melee hero has no business getting CS against a half decent dual lane. When you know your lane is already lost and the choice is getting at least some gold or tickling your enemies with 110 damage lances the choice is pretty easy.

  12. #9812
    i havent seen people dual laning in the offlane for a long ass time

    maybe my mmr is trash

  13. #9813
    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    i havent seen people dual laning in the offlane for a long ass time

    maybe my mmr is trash
    Solo offlane is awful, in my opinion. There is no reason to flat out abandon a lane unless you have a very strong jungler (pre-nerf Lycan for example) who can make sure you already have two farming "lanes." The problem is, people have copied the pros so much that solo offlane just became what you DO, and now people figure that if they don't have a jungler they better trilane because they HAVE to have two solo lanes, no other way to play DotA. It's not like dual lanes were the way Dota was played for 9 years straight or anything.

  14. #9814
    It is kind of being ignorant if you think pl is horrible in pubs. In your skill level sure he might not be the best but rest assured he completely dominates past 30 minutes in average skill games.

  15. #9815
    Quote Originally Posted by Maruka View Post
    It is kind of being ignorant if you think pl is horrible in pubs. In your skill level sure he might not be the best but rest assured he completely dominates past 30 minutes in average skill games.
    Like I said, if you let any hero farm for 30 minutes it's your loss, no matter who they picked. What other hyper carry does NOT dominate at this point in the game? Void? Antimage? Phantom Assassin? Yeah, they're all awful at 45 minutes, I forgot.

    Pretending PL is somehow special is ridiculous. He's only special because people are so damn afraid of him they refuse to pressure him in his lane and, to make things worse, for some bloody reason I never see ANYONE buy dust and gank him, people just assume he's unkillable even when he has 700 health and nothing but tranquils because he's rushing diffusal like everyone always does.

    Gank him early, gank him often, he will crumble just like any other hyper. More, in fact, because void/PA/AM all have blinks and defensives, PL has nothing but an invis that doesn't make him faster. Easiest hyper to stop in the game and was a joke in Dota1.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2013-08-14 at 11:19 PM.

  16. #9816
    I didnt say farm, i said game goes past that time. He needs 1-2 items and he will rape your team in an average skill game.

    edit: and we are talking from different skill points with different experience. i cant disprove you and i can assure you pl is the bane of almost every pub i play.
    Last edited by Maruka; 2013-08-14 at 11:23 PM.

  17. #9817
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Solo offlane is awful, in my opinion. There is no reason to flat out abandon a lane unless you have a very strong jungler (pre-nerf Lycan for example) who can make sure you already have two farming "lanes." The problem is, people have copied the pros so much that solo offlane just became what you DO, and now people figure that if they don't have a jungler they better trilane because they HAVE to have two solo lanes, no other way to play DotA. It's not like dual lanes were the way Dota was played for 9 years straight or anything.
    it works out great if you have the right hero for it

    gondar for example literally does not need any items to be effective at ganking, he only needs level six. if you dual-lane with gondar in the offlane, you might secure a pair of phase boots and a bottle, but you won't see that level six for four-five minutes later than if you would have if you ran there alone.

    a hero like weaver can successfully play 1v2 and come out on top, given he is against the right combination of heroes. I don't see why you would make that 1v2 a 2v2 if you can instead make sure you win one of your other lanes even harder.

    for me it's not as much "wow these people are good i better play this way", but more "wow this worked really well, i'll try to play this way"

    like I'd be down with playing eosin-style medic bear if the game called for it, i dont really care that hes not on a famous team playing for money
    Last edited by Longview; 2013-08-14 at 11:28 PM.

  18. #9818
    Yeah, but those are very specific heroes and Weaver is honestly probably too good at soloing offlanes. The problem I'm talking about is when the team already has 4 heroes - a set solo mid and a rag tag group of 3 that would make an awful tri lane - and someone just HAS to last pick that solo windrunner offlane. WR isn't even very good at it and now he's going to either complain the whole game or downright sabotage the team because you didn't let him solo.

    There are a handful of heroes who can solo the offlane, even "safe" offlanes like clock and DS aren't actually good - your enemy gets complete and total free farm under their tower and is, therefore, also ungankable. People should stop trying to force the strategy in every game, it annoys me deeply.

  19. #9819
    Dual laning offlane is like the easiest way to win pubs these days, people are so stuck with the 'meta' they often don't expect it and just lose because they want so badly to get Midas BF for their safelane AM and you can stomp them with pretty much any random lineup of 2 heroes.

    Offlaning just feels like the support equivalent of a solo lane. You don't go mid because people might have expectations of you, instead you go offlane where you're expected to lose to begin with so you can't get yelled at but you can blame your team when the enemy carry has freefarm and you've lost your towers for some reason.

    And what was said above, I do feel like I lose a lot whenever 'that guy' who just has to play solo offlane is in my team and there's no way to negotiate him into 1) picking a sensible hero, or 2) laning in a way that makes sense.

    Also looks like there was a game a few weeks ago where I beat PL+KotL lane as solo Razor against a stack of a known streamer, too bad the replay has expired.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2013-08-15 at 12:03 AM.

  20. #9820
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Dual laning offlane is like the easiest way to win pubs these days, people are so stuck with the 'meta' they often don't expect it and just lose because they want so badly to get Midas BF for their safelane AM and you can stomp them with pretty much any random lineup of 2 heroes.

    Offlaning just feels like the support equivalent of a solo lane. You don't go mid because people might have expectations of you, instead you go offlane where you're expected to lose to begin with so you can't get yelled at but you can blame your team when the enemy carry has freefarm and you've lost your towers for some reason.

    And what was said above, I do feel like I lose a lot whenever 'that guy' who just has to play solo offlane is in my team and there's no way to negotiate him into 1) picking a sensible hero, or 2) laning in a way that makes sense.

    Also looks like there was a game a few weeks ago where I beat PL+KotL lane as solo Razor against a stack of a known streamer, too bad the replay has expired.
    I used to run lesh+sand king offlane with a friend. 7 victorious games. Stuns to win!
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