1. #9841
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Doom with Stomp/Net can't? Prophet with treants can't help deward/defend contesting?
    It depends on the lane really. A KotL PL lane with jungling Profit has very little actual lockdown and most of Profit's early damage is rightclicks, something which has varying effects, mostly negligible to be honest.
    Doom could be a different story but I've never seen a decent jungle Doom ever so I can't really comment.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    If you are contesting a pull with only your support, wouldn't that naturally mean that your creep wave is under the carry's tower? Are you single-handely gonna contest the last hits under tower and put yourself in a very dangerous spot?
    You don't have to contest a pull after it's already happened. By then it's usually too late except to maybe pick off their support. You can fuck with him while he's pulling by simply rightclicking the creeps.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    I wouldn't say a safe lane is every easily gankable.
    There's nothing particularly safe about a safe lane other than the tower, ease of rotation, and natural creep location. If you have something which can reliably towerdive and get out, your only real benefit is faster TP support, with varying degrees of success.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Why would he be scared? He has full vision of you on the lane and sees when you are missing.
    So be missing. Walk behind the treeline. Is he coming to stop my pull? I dunno. Is he waiting to get an opportunity to mess with my carry? I donno.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Because that is way way more common scenario in public games.
    Well if we're talking about pub games how can it be assumed that kotl will even get gold for his sentries.
    I've seen duo offlanes buy block wards 9/10 times.
    I've seen people buying level 1 sentries against a non-invis lane 1/10 times. Most of the time their starting gold is also burnt.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Experience from three sources while the offensive dual lane only gets experience from one could very much turn the tides in your favor. KotL being 3-4 and PL being 5 while the offensive is 3-4 will help a lot.
    There's no real guarantee a pull is even going to be possible like I've said above. KotL can probably stack and illuminate the hardcamp but eh.
    Some offensives don't even need levels that much and even if they do, they're likely to make better use of their levels than KotL does.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    I'm not saying you can't beat KotL/PL lane, I never play it or against it so... But from theory, I believe defensive dual lanes would beat a offensive dual lane unless the picks is to completely counter that specific lane. I am more than happy to try my theory if there is anyone.
    There's no real reason to specifically counter KotL PL because most of the things that counter them counter squishy support + carry lineups in general.

  2. #9842
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zefie View Post
    Well if we're talking about pub games how can it be assumed that kotl will even get gold for his sentries.
    I've seen duo offlanes buy block wards 9/10 times.
    I've seen people buying level 1 sentries against a non-invis lane 1/10 times. Most of the time their starting gold is also burnt.
    First off, I never see dual lanes so that's that. And whether 1/10 buy sentries or not doesn't matter as my argument was that if you play the lane properly, you will have sentries with you. Watch any pro game and tell me how many times they don't carry sentries at the start.

    There's no real reason to specifically counter KotL PL because most of the things that counter them counter squishy support + carry lineups in general
    Sure, but my first post was that KotL/PL is harder to beat than most support+carry lineups.

    But what I've said previously is the whole reason for why professionals don't dual lane anymore.
    Last edited by mmoc9f3c8526e6; 2013-08-15 at 06:46 PM.

  3. #9843
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    First off, I never see dual lanes so that's that. And whether 1/10 buy sentries or not doesn't matter as my argument was that if you play the lane properly, you will have sentries with you. Watch any pro game and tell me how many times they don't carry sentries at the start.
    So pub games are relevant.
    But you should play like pros.
    So pub games aren't relevant.
    Right.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Sure, but my first post was that KotL/PL is harder to beat than most support+carry lineups.
    Only if you let them really.

  4. #9844
    Quote Originally Posted by Zefie View Post
    Only if you let them really.
    scarier than am+cm
    scarier than void+cm
    scarier than pa+cm
    scarier than above carries+sd
    scarier than above carries+lina
    scarier than above carries+aa
    scarier than above carries+thrall
    scarier than above carries+lich
    scarier than above carries+rubick
    scarier than above carries+lion
    scarier than above carries+bane

    but i do not really lane with people so my views may be skewed

  5. #9845
    SD/SA is 10x harder to beat than PL/kotl, because they have actual heavy presence. Or try a CM/DK lane. Throw in a batch of fresh gyro/ogre on top and you have tons of lanes that are a lot stronger than phantom garbage/keeper of the awful.

    And did you just say pa/cm is less scary than pl/kotl? I'm disappointed. Maybe I need to learn you people how to play PA.

  6. #9846
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    scarier than am+cm
    scarier than void+cm
    scarier than pa+cm
    scarier than above carries+sd
    scarier than above carries+lina
    scarier than above carries+aa
    scarier than above carries+thrall
    scarier than above carries+lich
    scarier than above carries+rubick
    scarier than above carries+lion
    scarier than above carries+bane

    but i do not really lane with people so my views may be skewed
    I'd be a lot more scared of AM CM/Lion than KotL PL.
    And PA Lina
    But maybe that's just me.

  7. #9847
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zefie View Post
    So pub games are relevant.
    But you should play like pros.
    So pub games aren't relevant.
    Right.
    So what the majority do in a public game affects whether you buy sentry on KotL or not? No, it doesn't.
    So what the majority do in a public game affect your chances of facing an Enchantress offensive jungling? Very much so.

    I am talking from the standpoint where you have control of KotL/PL and the opposing team only has control of picking their dual lane. The other heroes are dictated by what is most common in a public game, right? When you decide to go dual lane offensively in a public game, the chances that the enemy has a jungler in their woods is much much more likely than you having an offensive jungler. That was my point.

    Only if you let them really.
    I'm up for trying it.

  8. #9848
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    I am talking from the standpoint where you have control of KotL/PL and the opposing team only has control of picking their dual lane.
    Nothing really says they have to go with something 100% perfect. I can just as easily jungle myself and have some pubbie support the offlane *shrug*
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    The other heroes are dictated by what is most common in a public game, right? When you decide to go dual lane offensively in a public game, the chances that the enemy has a jungler in their woods is much much more likely than you having an offensive jungler. That was my point.
    idk I mostly do 3-or-more-stacks but maybe that's just me. Even so you could just pick something ridiculous like SD potm and win every fight you start and run from every fight you can't win.

    Wait.
    I just realized Doppelwalk rapes this strat.
    Fuck.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    I'm up for trying it.
    Are you challenging me to Fistful of Ring of Health.
    Last edited by mmoc24ed1da916; 2013-08-15 at 07:35 PM.

  9. #9849
    Deleted
    Is CM viable yet

  10. #9850
    Stood in the Fire Nelavar's Avatar
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    Define viable.
    The way I see it you can make any hero work

  11. #9851
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zefie View Post
    Nothing really says they have to go with something 100% perfect. I can just as easily jungle myself and have some pubbie support the offlane *shrug*
    99% of my solo queues are 2-1-1. As I said, you have no control over the other pubbies. Getting a guy to dual lane off lane with you is very unlikely.

    Are you challenging me to Fistful of Ring of Health.
    Not a challenge, a test to confirm our theories.

    Also, didn't someone talk about a 1v1 tourny?

  12. #9852
    CM is viable for the first 9 minutes of the game.

  13. #9853
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    SD/SA is 10x harder to beat than PL/kotl, because they have actual heavy presence. Or try a CM/DK lane. Throw in a batch of fresh gyro/ogre on top and you have tons of lanes that are a lot stronger than phantom garbage/keeper of the awful.

    And did you just say pa/cm is less scary than pl/kotl? I'm disappointed. Maybe I need to learn you people how to play PA.
    I like gyro bane. It's like, attack enemy to pull creeps on bane, nightmare on enemy, pull creeps from enemy, gyro turns on his yatatatata skill and enemy is dead

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasen Ibaraki View Post
    Is CM viable yet
    since i got eul common item yes she is
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  14. #9854
    Meh, i like MOBA's so much since i played Dota for so long and since forever, even when it was just in the first beta phases in 2003..

    But Dota 2 is pushing me away so much..This matchmaking...3-5 faceroll stomp wins, 3-5 faceroll stomp loses, there isnt any middle ground at all, like ever.

    The games are always some form of stomping..At least add a surrender button already, wasting so much time on each game, and i cant even sit AFK since it gives you an abandonment the last couple of months.

    Like my last game..4 man premade on my side, 0-3-0/0-0-0/0-5-0/0-5-0 IN 8 MINUTES,the only reason the dude has 0-0-0, was because it was Prophet jungling and i had 1-0-0 in suicide lane versus Tinker/Nyx with Windrunner..

    Oh not to mention the 0-5/0-5 was Sven/Sand King losing to a CM/Bristle, apparently 1 shotting crystal maiden at level 3 is hard business.
    Last edited by potis; 2013-08-16 at 01:28 AM.

  15. #9855
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    I like gyro bane. It's like, attack enemy to pull creeps on bane, nightmare on enemy, pull creeps from enemy, gyro turns on his yatatatata skill and enemy is dead

    - - - Updated - - -



    since i got eul common item yes she is
    I was going to say Bane at first for that lane as well, you can also missile > nightmare > yatatatata but Bane is too fragile to protect Gyro from enemy aggressive lanes imo.

  16. #9856
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    This matchmaking...3-5 faceroll stomp wins, 3-5 faceroll stomp loses, there isnt any middle ground at all, like ever.
    Most of the time it's not because of MM, it's because lots of people go "ff plz, i'll afk" after being ganked 3-4 times or seeing their team is slightly behind on kills at the 20 min mark.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, lots of pub players don't seem to understand that heroes reach their maximum at different periods of time. I had so many matches when it looked like we're totally fucked, but we turtled for 40 minutes and eventually won when our carry heroes became big enough to kill the entire team, because the opponent's lineup was caster-heavy, hence useless in late game, where everyone and their dog has BKB. Since most pub players give up really fast, they rarely see such things happening.
    Last edited by Kjalar; 2013-08-16 at 07:11 AM.

  17. #9857
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjalar View Post
    most of the time it's not because of mm, it's because lots of people go "ff plz, i'll afk" after being ganked 3-4 times or seeing their team is slightly behind on kills at the 20 min mark.

    - - - updated - - -

    also, lots of pub players don't seem to understand that heroes reach their maximum at different periods of time. I had so many matches when it looked like we're totally fucked, but we turtled for 40 minutes and eventually won when our carry heroes became big enough to kill the entire team, because the opponent's lineup was caster-heavy, hence useless in late game, where everyone and their dog has bkb. Since most pub players give up really fast, they rarely see such things happening.
    "omg who fed nix so hard noobs ltp ff"
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  18. #9858
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kjalar View Post
    Also, lots of pub players don't seem to understand that heroes reach their maximum at different periods of time. I had so many matches when it looked like we're totally fucked, but we turtled for 40 minutes and eventually won when our carry heroes became big enough to kill the entire team, because the opponent's lineup was caster-heavy, hence useless in late game, where everyone and their dog has BKB. Since most pub players give up really fast, they rarely see such things happening.
    Well I had a game somewhat like that the other day.
    Our hard carry was an Alchemist who was behind on farm, but had a midas so his levels weren't bad. But he was still behind the enemy team. I was also playing BH that game. Our Alch had a somewhat negative outlook on the match while the rest of the team were flat out "ff end it".
    Actually convincing them that if Alch got steady farm and we got some good track kill pick offs then he would be up to snuff quite quickly. They kinda listened which was good. We won the next team fight.
    Then we lost the rest and the game. But it didn't exactly end without a good fight either. I think we could've won if everybody else had actually stayed positive throughout the game.

    If I could count the games where we've stomped a team with an AM and not done it fast enough, only for it to reach late game and AM demolish us.

    On a somewhat similar note I get really annoyed by people who tell me to FF only for them to continue fighting. If they want it to end fast then don't defend, it strikes me as hypocritical. As if my team wasn't already trying to win in the first place, we have to be told to.

  19. #9859
    Here's something I've seen a few times: I play AM, I get free farm, my GPM , KDA, XP min, etc, it's all going better than anyone else. But when I tried to join into the fighting again, there was just... nowhere to go. We never got any good opportunity to initiate, and the rest of my team were too easily picked off for us to assemble a teamfight.

  20. #9860
    Quote Originally Posted by Kjalar View Post
    Also, lots of pub players don't seem to understand that heroes reach their maximum at different periods of time. I had so many matches when it looked like we're totally fucked, but we turtled for 40 minutes and eventually won when our carry heroes became big enough to kill the entire team, because the opponent's lineup was caster-heavy, hence useless in late game, where everyone and their dog has BKB. Since most pub players give up really fast, they rarely see such things happening.
    While this is true, there are also a lot of games that are over in the first 20 minutes.

    Played one earlier, we had Prophet (me), Bounty Hunter, Bloodseeker, Obsidian Destroy and.. One other person, don't remember, my friend was playing him though. The enemy team had a Tinker, that's about all that mattered. Our OD had absolutely no clue how to play, he would imprison everybody we opened on, and didn't know he could auto cast his Q skill. Bounty Hunter solo'd long lang , so even though he had decent levels he had no gold to do damage. Tinker completely took away my ability to push anything, since if I tried pushing he'd just teleport to the tower with Boots of Travel, use his AoE skill twice and then leave, which would kill all the creeps and any treants I had summoned. And Bloodseeker had something like 250gpm, which wasn't bad considering we couldn't leave our base after about the fifteen minute mark.

    And yet, the game continued. For like 30 more minutes. There was no way we could come back, at all, wasn't even remotely possible. When the only person with more than 350gpm is a Nature's Prophet and the enemy team has three people over 400gpm, it's just bad. There's no point in trying, you can't come back from that, it's completely impossible.

    Of course there are some games where turtling can win you the game, but in the vast majority it's just a waste of time. Your carry player has to know how to farm while being stuck in a small area, because the enemy team will have map control and so the enemy carry will get more farm than yours unless your carry knows how to farm. Which is pretty rare in pub games.

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