1. #10021
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    You can't have everything. But you can be a pugna with skadi orb and enfeeble
    I know I am just saying that as a white damage hero you cant do anything efficient against bash heroes and I dont think it should be this way. There is an item against everything, why not bashes.

    Its not even the bash heroes that bother me that much. They are mostly far from op. Its just that I think there shouldnt be a mechanic that cant be countered, especially when its the "Right click and watch them stand still until death" mechanic. I find it kind of ridiculous when a Void with MoM and MKB can solo a 6 slotted carry with triple net worth 1 on 1. I know its a team game, but still pretty stupid.
    Last edited by Faldric; 2013-08-17 at 05:18 PM.

  2. #10022
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Faldric View Post
    I know I am just saying that as a white damage hero you cant do anything efficient against bash heroes and I dont think it should be this way. There is an item against everything, why not bashes.

    Its not even the bash heroes that bother me that much. They are mostly far from op. Its just that I think there shouldnt be a mechanic that cant be countered, especially when its the "Right click and watch them stand still until death" mechanic. I find it kind of ridiculous when a Void with MoM and MKB can solo a 6 slotted carry with triple net worth 1 on 1. I know its a team game, but still pretty stupid.
    It can be countered by not letting them attack

  3. #10023
    Quote Originally Posted by Faldric View Post
    I know I am just saying that as a white damage hero you cant do anything efficient against bash heroes and I dont think it should be this way. There is an item against everything, why not bashes.

    Its not even the bash heroes that bother me that much. They are mostly far from op. Its just that I think there shouldnt be a mechanic that cant be countered, especially when its the "Right click and watch them stand still until death" mechanic. I find it kind of ridiculous when a Void with MoM and MKB can solo a 6 slotted carry with triple net worth 1 on 1. I know its a team game, but still pretty stupid.
    well, not everything has a counter, there is a reason why alot of ultimates go through bkb, ghost scepter works against bashes fine, but its a situational item and isnt always the best investment, which is fine, items should be choices, its already pretty boring to see some heroes going practically the same item build game after game (gyro, AM, PL, NP etc). And I would love to see a 6slot carry, that got blown up by void with one dmg item and without bkb, did he get 10 bashes in a row, while catching the entire team in chrono?

  4. #10024

  5. #10025
    Quote Originally Posted by Dethox View Post
    And that goes both ways. You'd think it's the support job to babysit you and take 99% of the enemy hero health just so you can right click and take the cash.
    No. I don't. I will happily do whatever is required, but when it's pretty fucking obvious I can't be where I am alone and the support is doing nothing but denying creepwaves, that is bad support.

    Now go back and read: Of the people who play crappy support, the most predominant issue I see is that they don't support, but are basically just spending the game jungling.
    Last edited by Drunkenvalley; 2013-08-17 at 07:43 PM.

  6. #10026
    Deleted
    Totally in love with Dota 2 <3. I have been playing for four months and I still can not get enough!

  7. #10027
    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkenvalley View Post
    No. I don't. I will happily do whatever is required, but when it's pretty fucking obvious I can't be where I am alone and the support is doing nothing but denying creepwaves, that is bad support.

    Now go back and read: Of the people who play crappy support, the most predominant issue I see is that they don't support, but are basically just spending the game jungling.
    Please. If the support is denying creeps hes bad because he doesnt support you, if he sticks to lane and harrases/protects you then hes bad because he soaks XP and doesnt keep the creeps in check and when he sticks out of LoS and occasionaly harrases/tries to zone out, the hes bad because he doesnt keep the creeps in check and has no money for wards... We all heard those arguments here already, support is apparently only good if he can do all those things at once... Oh heres the funny thing, you cant do all three at once with only ONE support even in 2v1 scenario, let alone 2v2 and we have seen plenty of times how even pros cant keep the creeps in check with TWO supports against solo suicide

    Is it so hard to adapt to your support? The solution to him pulling creeps is going defensive under tower (if needed), not being blind, dying because you didnt watch minimap and blame your support for your incompetence.

  8. #10028
    I'm not someone who dies easy. Don't misunderstand, young lady. I play it safe.

    But herein is the problem: If I play it safe vs a dual-lane, what will I ever accomplish? Nothing. I'm not gonna go and get myself killed, but I cannot carry if the support never comes into lane to help. I'm not going to have the gold. And not even get an XP advantage when the enemy can farm freely while I can't touch anything without losing a solid chunk of health.

  9. #10029
    Quote Originally Posted by Faldric View Post
    Its just that I think there shouldnt be a mechanic that cant be countered, especially when its the "Right click and watch them stand still until death" mechanic.
    it can get countered though.

    there's a plethora of ultimate abilities that go through bkb that allows you to keep them out of combat even if they get a bkb

    blade mail

    ghost scepter

    heavens halberd

    regular kiting stuff, blink, force staff

    the list goes on...

  10. #10030
    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkenvalley View Post
    I'm not someone who dies easy. Don't misunderstand, young lady. I play it safe.

    But herein is the problem: If I play it safe vs a dual-lane, what will I ever accomplish? Nothing. I'm not gonna go and get myself killed, but I cannot carry if the support never comes into lane to help. I'm not going to have the gold. And not even get an XP advantage when the enemy can farm freely while I can't touch anything without losing a solid chunk of health.
    First time ever someone called me lady.

    And what is enemy team farming under your tower, if your support keeps denying them? And you will loose chunks of healt everytime you got for LH as melee anyway, regardless of the support being there or not. Its like a 3v3, with little less nukage, one side IS gonna win the lane just by favoured matchup and get decent ammount of LH and the other side is gonna sit there, not contesting and try to pull creeps so their carry can get some LH under tower until someone comes for gank.

  11. #10031
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkenvalley View Post
    Now go back and read: Of the people who play crappy support, the most predominant issue I see is that they don't support, but are basically just spending the game jungling.
    Like Alliance's EGM?

  12. #10032
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Like Alliance's EGM?
    There are far too many differences between a classic pub-match and the matches Alliance plays for it to be a relevant point. For one the carry gets pooled a bunch of regen to begin with if they expect harass/damage, and that's not gonna happen in pubs.

    Additionally, anyone trying to make the implication that they won't attack you under the tower are blatantly ignorant of how the towers work, I'm sorry. It's easy to use the creepwave being there to get a safe tower-dive gank.

    Supports are first and foremost going to have to deal with potential aggression. I am not asking someone to sit in the lane and just sap XP, but when I'm being harassed out of lane by two ranged heroes and they safely gank me because the creepwave is at the tower, then someone's doing shit wrong. You cannot just leave a relatively fragile hard carry alone versus two ranged and say "Deal with it," because that's just going to leave you with a severely underfarmed carry.

  13. #10033
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkenvalley View Post
    There are far too many differences between a classic pub-match and the matches Alliance plays for it to be a relevant point. For one the carry gets pooled a bunch of regen to begin with if they expect harass/damage, and that's not gonna happen in pubs.

    Additionally, anyone trying to make the implication that they won't attack you under the tower are blatantly ignorant of how the towers work, I'm sorry. It's easy to use the creepwave being there to get a safe tower-dive gank.

    Supports are first and foremost going to have to deal with potential aggression. I am not asking someone to sit in the lane and just sap XP, but when I'm being harassed out of lane by two ranged heroes and they safely gank me because the creepwave is at the tower, then someone's doing shit wrong. You cannot just leave a relatively fragile hard carry alone versus two ranged and say "Deal with it," because that's just going to leave you with a severely underfarmed carry.
    The carry usually isn't pooled at start. He gets the supports regeneration items if he is out and needs more, which you can most likely get in a public game too if you support has some and you ask nicely. It's very hard to dive under tower and it's very easy to see if they want to dive you under tower and play it safe by just pulling the wave back far and out of range for their stuns. You also have the option of running into trees and the support is just like 3 seconds away.

    But yeah, dual lanes are different but I never see those at my MMR. I would truly like to see how it is facing a dual lane because it was a very long time since I did.

  14. #10034
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    The carry usually isn't pooled at start. He gets the supports regeneration items if he is out and needs more, which you can most likely get in a public game too if you support has some and you ask nicely.
    I said 'if'; if they are sending a carry to a dangerous lane they'll pool him some regen. Though my brain is currently on derpmode as we tick by 2 AM here in Norway, so I don't remember a particular match to reference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    It's very hard to dive under tower and it's very easy to see if they want to dive you under tower and play it safe by just pulling the wave back far and out of range for their stuns.
    I'm gonna be honest: It hadn't occurred to me to pull the creepwave further back. But thinking over it it's pretty obvious of a method. Thanks, I'll keep it in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    You also have the option of running into trees and the support is just like 3 seconds away.
    And this is why I'm saying some people are crappy supports. When the only support you see is that they'll bother to go help you defend yourself from a tower dive it's a bit silly. It "helps" since with the aid of the tower we come out on top, and so I can farm for a little while, but there's no way I can catch up to the enemy's farm in that sort of situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    But yeah, dual lanes are different but I never see those at my MMR. I would truly like to see how it is facing a dual lane because it was a very long time since I did.
    I find the average pub level is still dual-lanes on the sides and a single mid hero. If it's a CM mode it's almost 100% trilane vs trilane, and those matches are simply way easier to farm in from my POV.

    But again, in my average pub game it's dual lane vs dual-lane. Well, it would've been dual-lane if I ever saw my duo-partner, but he's busy pulling creepwaves instead of helping anyone fend off an aggressive duo.

  15. #10035
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Experience from three sources while the offensive dual lane only gets experience from one could very much turn the tides in your favor. KotL being 3-4 and PL being 5 while the offensive is 3-4 will help a lot.

    I have no doubt you win your dual lanes. But I still believe that the players you were facing probably didn't try to do what I suggested.
    I think you might be overestimating the amount of experience you actually get from pulling even if you can do it uncontested. Or the amount of xp you lose from losing control of the creep wave and having most of it denied.

    When it comes to the players I've been against, if they actually go out of their way to pick KotL/PL I would argue that they probably are more or less into the whole tryharding business.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Sure, but my first post was that KotL/PL is harder to beat than most support+carry lineups.

    But what I've said previously is the whole reason for why professionals don't dual lane anymore.
    Easier to beat than most lineups. The real synergy of KotL/PL, aside from the Chakra+Lance spam that is actually good at getting rid of solo heroes, is the same of any KotL/hyper - Keeper buying the carry enough time and space to farm in the mid-game. On a lane they are weak against non-solo matchups.

    What 'professionals' do is completely irrelevant. Dual laning doesn't work in tournaments because the current way pros copy each other, which means trilaning or preparing for a trilane in every game, is in itself a counter-play to almost any attempt to dual-lane. Winning with a dual lane doesn't mean that you only won because your enemies aren't pros. Winning with a dual lane means you exploited a weakness in enemy lineup or in their predictability, and being able to do so allows you to win against anyone - even the pros. And that is good dota and that is what makes you a better player much more certainly than just doing stuff you see in TI3 because that's what pros do or because that works in pro games.

    Even the pro 'meta' evolves, even if it is slow because most teams seem to be afraid of change, and working out counter-strategies is what separates good teams from the rest. You can watch all the internationals and there's 2 recurring themes for the top finishes - they're either teams that had a solid strategy going in that they had invested heavily in, or they were teams who adapted to all their opponents and changed their game (and to an extent, the meta-game) to something that works against what their enemies are doing. In both cases, superior strategy is what makes them raise above other teams. Being able to outplay your enemy this way is at least to me more satisfying than winning a game that is a carbon copy of half the matches of last week. Maybe the enemies have been weaker players, but I imagine it's because they think they're unbeatable because they're applying 'pro strats' against my random hero button.

    Sure there's plenty of arguments to why it can or can't work, but actually making it work matters more than arguing about whether or not nobody in the whole world can stop a support from pulling and automatically getting 3 levels.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2013-08-18 at 12:45 AM.

  16. #10036

  17. #10037
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    I think you might be overestimating the amount of experience you actually get from pulling even if you can do it uncontested. Or the amount of xp you lose from losing control of the creep wave and having most of it denied.

    When it comes to the players I've been against, if they actually go out of their way to pick KotL/PL I would argue that they probably are more or less into the whole tryharding business.
    You get level two from one double pull. If you are chain pulling you can hit level 6 around 8-9 minutes I think. But more importantly, your carry gets solo experience. Meaning he will be around level 7-8 instead of 4-5. That is quite significant. Pulling isn't just about you getting experience, it's about you getting experience and giving your carry experience. And it controls the lane.

    What 'professionals' do is completely irrelevant. Dual laning doesn't work in tournaments because the current way pros copy each other, which means trilaning or preparing for a trilane in every game, is in itself a counter-play to almost any attempt to dual-lane. Winning with a dual lane doesn't mean that you only won because your enemies aren't pros. Winning with a dual lane means you exploited a weakness in enemy lineup or in their predictability, and being able to do so allows you to win against anyone - even the pros. And that is good dota and that is what makes you a better player much more certainly than just doing stuff you see in TI3 because that's what pros do or because that works in pro games.
    So if a team doesn't pick a tri lane but picks jungler (which does happen quite often, Chen, Enigma, Enchantress etc), wouldn't that be a scenario where a dual lane wins? You are arguing that offensive dual lanes don't work because of tri lanes. I am saying it won't even work against a defensive dual lane and a jungler, which is the most common scenario in a public game and does happen in professional games too.

    Playing public dota and winning with a unorthodox strategy and then calling it good Dota is silly to be honest. Exploiting enemy weakness and predictability doesn't necessarily mean you are playing good Dota. It's like not going BKB on a hero because you know most public players are bad and won't be able to disable you enough anyway or chain stuns properly but you know that against any good player (professionals, if you will) you wouldn't get away with that. That's not good dota in my opinion, that's just pub stomping.

    Even the pro 'meta' evolves, even if it is slow because most teams seem to be afraid of change, and working out counter-strategies is what separates good teams from the rest. You can watch all the internationals and there's 2 recurring themes for the top finishes - they're either teams that had a solid strategy going in that they had invested heavily in, or they were teams who adapted to all their opponents and changed their game (and to an extent, the meta-game) to something that works against what their enemies are doing. In both cases, superior strategy is what makes them raise above other teams. Being able to outplay your enemy this way is at least to me more satisfying than winning a game that is a carbon copy of half the matches of last week. Maybe the enemies have been weaker players, but I imagine it's because they think they're unbeatable because they're applying 'pro strats' against my random hero button.
    All Internationals were won by a team that had a strategy and playstyle they stuck to. Not because they brought some super weird strategy or laned in a completely new way. They did what they do best. Sure, you can work out counter-strategies and think you are good, but what happens when the opponent adjust their play a bit? iG in last year international got countered. They altered their picks just a bit but still stuck to the same playstyle and won. You have to have a solid playstyle first to start counter-strategizing and picking. I think that is what most players are trying to do in public games. There's no point to start thinking outside the box when you don't even know or understand what's inside the box.

    It's easy to go random build in public games and make it work and then think it is far superior to what the pros do. You see some professionals in public games go weird item builds and still make them work in public games but then when you see them play professional games they go back to more common items because they know it's better.

    Stability is usually better unless you out-skill your opponent. I thought you'd know that from playing in Paragon, no? Wouldn't you have valued a reliable player who plays it safe and does consistently good DPS more than a guy that takes risks and might wipe raid but sometimes do insane DPS?

    Sure there's plenty of arguments to why it can or can't work, but actually making it work matters more than arguing about whether or not nobody in the whole world can stop a support from pulling and automatically getting 3 levels.
    Making it work in a public game doesn't mean anything really. Sure, dual laning might be good in pubs and win you games. I never argued against that. But if you are going to say that it works against anyone, even pros, then you better make it work against pros, right? I find it a bit silly to sit and argue saying that a certain strategy is so good and it's just that the pros are slow to adapt being the reason why it isn't seen in the pro scene and then use the argument that you win with it in public games as a proof.

    Just look at Vici Gaming. Top public players, stomp everyone and everything in public games. Suddenly they play competitive and they have to adapt a lot of their play. Things they thought worked doesn't work against a real team with players who know what they are doing.
    Last edited by mmoc9f3c8526e6; 2013-08-18 at 02:37 AM.

  18. #10038
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    Please. If the support is denying creeps hes bad because he doesnt support you, if he sticks to lane and harrases/protects you then hes bad because he soaks XP and doesnt keep the creeps in check and when he sticks out of LoS and occasionaly harrases/tries to zone out, the hes bad because he doesnt keep the creeps in check and has no money for wards... We all heard those arguments here already, support is apparently only good if he can do all those things at once... Oh heres the funny thing, you cant do all three at once with only ONE support even in 2v1 scenario, let alone 2v2 and we have seen plenty of times how even pros cant keep the creeps in check with TWO supports against solo suicide

    Is it so hard to adapt to your support? The solution to him pulling creeps is going defensive under tower (if needed), not being blind, dying because you didnt watch minimap and blame your support for your incompetence.
    Depends on set-up.
    If you are duo lining hard line and you face solo carry farming, you need to give denying higher priority than farming. Ward-blocking and denying and harassing, that's how you play duo against solo farmer.
    If you play duo easy lane again solo farmer, carry needs to farm, dodge hits. That's all. Support needs to do pulls (indirectly denying creeps), zone enemy from exp, set up ganks, ward the shit around.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    The carry usually isn't pooled at start. He gets the supports regeneration items if he is out and needs more, which you can most likely get in a public game too if you support has some and you ask nicely. It's very hard to dive under tower and it's very easy to see if they want to dive you under tower and play it safe by just pulling the wave back far and out of range for their stuns. You also have the option of running into trees and the support is just like 3 seconds away.

    But yeah, dual lanes are different but I never see those at my MMR. I would truly like to see how it is facing a dual lane because it was a very long time since I did.
    DO sharing ring of health still works?
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  19. #10039
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    You get level two from one double pull. If you are chain pulling you can hit level 6 around 8-9 minutes I think. But more importantly, your carry gets solo experience. Meaning he will be around level 7-8 instead of 4-5. That is quite significant. Pulling isn't just about you getting experience, it's about you getting experience and giving your carry experience. And it controls the lane.
    Except for the part where your lane is unfarmable while you're gone pulling, or the part where a single hero can disrupt your pull and make the stacked creepwaves run all the way to enemy tower.

    This line of talk is completely pointless though, because there's always a counter-play, so we're going to just be stuck in an endless loop of 'dual lane? go pull - pull? ward the camp - warded camp? sentry it - sentried camp? counter sentry.' There's enough arguments for and against it to fill several pages of pointless back-and-forth rambling when it's much easier to play it in practice and see how you can make it work. And when it consistently works in top MMR even against pros and tryhard stacks, it's good enough for me.

    Exploiting enemy weakness and predictability doesn't necessarily mean you are playing good Dota.
    As far as I'm aware, yes it does. It's not only good dota, it's good in any game which involves outplaying a human opponent. When both teams pick 2-1-1 and lane offlane-mid-jungle-support-carry without even stopping to consider what they could do differently to throw the enemy team off balance, that is some very dull dota.

    You have to have a solid playstyle first to start counter-strategizing and picking.
    Obviously you need to have good mechanics and deep understanding to actually play the strategy game, which is why not many people understand it. That's the core difference between the two kinds of winning teams I described - The other banks on their practice and knowledge of their own lineups and strategy to be good enough to make up for possible counter plays, and the other banks on their knowledge of strategy and overall understanding of the game to counter their enemies despite having less space to master all their strategies.

    Last year LGD did exactly the same thing every game and went 20-0 until they hit a brick wall on Na´Vi. Na´Vi did poorly until they figured out how to change their play to counter what the Chinese teams were doing to all the other Western teams.

    Stability is usually better unless you out-skill your opponent. I thought you'd know that from playing in Paragon, no? Wouldn't you have valued a reliable player who plays it safe and does consistently good DPS more than a guy that takes risks and might wipe raid but sometimes do insane DPS?
    We had both kinds, neither necessarily better than the other.

    Making it work in a public game doesn't mean anything really. Sure, dual laning might be good in pubs and win you games. I never argued against that. But if you are going to say that it works against anyone, even pros, then you better make it work against pros, right? I find it a bit silly to sit and argue saying that a certain strategy is so good and it's just that the pros are slow to adapt being the reason why it isn't seen in the pro scene and then use the argument that you win with it in public games as a proof.

    Just look at Vici Gaming. Top public players, stomp everyone and everything in public games. Suddenly they play competitive and they have to adapt a lot of their play. Things they thought worked doesn't work against a real team with players who know what they are doing.
    I've made it work against pros and won. Sure you will argue that they weren't trying their hardest, but neither was I. I didn't say pros being slow to adapt is the reason it isn't seen on their little scene. I said it wouldn't work in that scene right now. I probably wouldn't try dual-laning vs a pro team in a serious match either. The strategy is good in a context of a pub game right now, and being able to recognize that is far better dota than trying to adapt pro strats without any thought put into it. And I'm sure people who use this to their advantage in pubs would do better in competitive environment than people who try really hard to play like the pros do.


    What this all comes back to is that what pros do is irrelevant. I'm fairly sure that there is a strong correlation between being able to strategically outplay your enemies in pub games and being able to do it in 'serious' games, and it should be obvious that the exact strategies don't actually need to be the same. I'm also pretty sure there is a correlation between the kinds of players who simply copy what they see and refuse to play outside what they think is 'right' and the kinds of teams who consistently display zero adaptability and never get anywhere.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2013-08-18 at 02:53 AM.

  20. #10040
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    DO sharing ring of health still works?
    just did it in a game, it does work!

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