1. #10041
    Quote Originally Posted by Kerdoz View Post
    Just played a game as Enigma, teammates were Ursa, PA, Naga and NYX. I started by buying wards and courier, upg the courier asap. Had to share jungle with Ursa, tried to afford mek, still after 6 minutes they started to yelling about wards. I have to find a team to play with.
    I had that same problem so many times, couple games ago i went random and got dazzle, bought wards, courier and flying, at 7-8m mark another ward on runes, at 15m i got yelled "where are the wards on the enemy jungle? you've to deny their jungle, give us vision and ward our camp .. shitty support", it was a tidehunter. just sad.

    I really love playing support but its almost impossible to support solo queue, with a couple friends its awesome, but by yourself not always a good idea.

  2. #10042
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    As far as I'm aware, yes it does. It's not only good dota, it's good in any game which involves outplaying a human opponent. When both teams pick 2-1-1 and lane offlane-mid-jungle-support-carry without even stopping to consider what they could do differently to throw the enemy team off balance, that is some very dull dota.
    I don't find the laning phase fun at all. Because it's so much more dictated by what you are facing and if you are at an advantage or not than about whether or not you are better than your opponent. Except for mid, of course, where you can outplay people. Dota becomes fun for me during mid game when rotations happen, when you use the whole map to your advantage and actually have more than one spell to use. Not everyone cares about throwing opponent off in the first 5 minutes.

    Last year LGD did exactly the same thing every game and went 20-0 until they hit a brick wall on Na´Vi. Na´Vi did poorly until they figured out how to change their play to counter what the Chinese teams were doing to all the other Western teams.
    Yes, Na'Vi changed their playstyle because they got beat. You do know that iG beat Na'Vi first, right? But Na'Vi didn't win the tournament simply because that strategy might work once or twice but the Chinese adapted a bit and Na'Vi couldn't figure it out. In the end, if you come in with a strong playstyle, you are already one-up. Enemy has to figure out you first before you need to care about them. LGD didn't get knocked out by Na'Vi, they got knocked out by iG. Who knows what would have happened if LGD faced Na'Vi again.

    I've made it work against pros and won. Sure you will argue that they weren't trying their hardest, but neither was I. I didn't say pros being slow to adapt is the reason it isn't seen on their little scene. I said it wouldn't work in that scene right now. I probably wouldn't try dual-laning vs a pro team in a serious match either. The strategy is good in a context of a pub game right now, and being able to recognize that is far better dota than trying to adapt pro strats without any thought put into it. And I'm sure people who use this to their advantage in pubs would do better in competitive environment than people who try really hard to play like the pros do.
    You have? Do you have a replay? And not some pro with Sheever support or like Merlini with friends and you winning your lane against his friends while he was mid and then winning game and saying it works against pros.

    Of course people who adapt to their environment are better players than those who blindly copy but why try to reinvent the wheel? Why go dual lane when you have a reason for not going it? I don't go offensive dual lanes because first and foremost, I have to have a guy who is willing and knows how to play it and secondly I must trust him. When I see openings, I go but if he doesn't follow I might just die. Why would I dual lane? There is no reason. You can dual lane because you probably play with a stack. Most public players don't do that. Even when I play with my friends I don't like to lane with them because they are so much worse than me and they don't see opportunities like I do or understand the game as I do.

    I copy pros but I also recognize that dual lane might work in public games. Copying and being able to recognize weaknesses and strengths are not mutually exclusive. However, I still don't play offensive dual lanes and I wouldn't go a dual lane even if someone asked me unless I knew he wasn't retarded. I don't see why analyzing players who you think are good is a bad thing and copying them is bad.

    You are saying public players are trying to copy professional Dota too much but there is no reason why they would try a dual lane. Copying blindly is bad. Copying while understanding the strength and weaknesses isn't worse than inventing something new. You can't invent everything.

    What this all comes back to is that what pros do is irrelevant. I'm fairly sure that there is a strong correlation between being able to strategically outplay your enemies in pub games and being able to do it in 'serious' games, and it should be obvious that the exact strategies don't actually need to be the same. I'm also pretty sure there is a correlation between the kinds of players who simply copy what they see and refuse to play outside what they think is 'right' and the kinds of teams who consistently display zero adaptability and never get anywhere.
    I don't see the correlation. I play by probability. If the most probable scenario is that the opponent has a solo off lane, then I pick my items accordingly. I am not going to pick my items according to if they had a dual lane. Congratulations, you managed to throw me off in a game because you are random opponent that I have no control over and you picked a dual lane. Is that now somehow good Dota from your side and bad from my side?

    What you want me to do about it? I'll try my best to adapt but if my support doesn't know how or my jungler doesn't know how, then we got a problem, right? That was my point. I believe public players generally don't know how to handle a offensive dual lane and I think a defensive dual lane with a jungler will generally beat an offensive dual lane.

    How can you say that your dual lane works well and that it crushes a defensive dual lane in theory just because you managed to do it in public games? Especially when you say yourself that you threw the enemy off guard and them thinking it would be an solo off lane. How do you know that they responded as well as they could to your dual lane?

  3. #10043
    Any1 else getting games count as "abandoned" after they have become "safe to leave"?

    Today I was even put into the "lower queue priority because of abandoned games or player reports" because of it. The game itself DCs, I'm unable to reconnect, and after a few minutes (and failed attempts at reconnecting), the game becomes safe to leave, and apparently this counts as "abandoning" it, when it obiously shouldn't.

    It could also be player reports, but I don't see how that could be the case, as I have been the dominant player of our team in pretty much all matches recently. Is it possible for me to get put into this "lower prio" shit because of random guys reporting ppl just for trolling? Not sure how the system works, but if you can get reported without reason, and then get punished for it, the system is kind of flawed...
    They're (short for They are) describes a group of people. "They're/They are a nice bunch of guys." Their indicates that something belongs/is related to a group of people. "Their car was all out of fuel." There refers to a location. "Let's set up camp over there." There is also no such thing as "could/should OF". The correct way is: Could/should'VE, or could/should HAVE.
    Holyfury armory

  4. #10044
    Professional scene will be back to dual lanes well before TI4.

    Thus says my crystal ball.

  5. #10045
    I just started playing dota. Finished tutorial vs bots and now wanted do 10 games from tutorial vs normal people. And oh my god its just nightmare. I lost so far every game (5 atm). Im ALWAYS playing 4v5 or even 3v5 because people are leaving at start or after 5-10 min. Even if its 4v5 people dont have idea what the hell they are doing. They just run around and die to everyone. Even when I tell help mid/top/bot coz there 3-4 enemies they do nothing and just let them destroy towers.

    Im new to this game but seriously. How someone can be sooo bad? All games for new players look like this or Im just very unlucky?

  6. #10046
    Quote Originally Posted by Mamut View Post
    All games for new players look like this or Im just very unlucky?
    A mix of both. From what I've seen the new players are always terrified of engaging into fights, but the level of crap you got put up with sounds like you were a fair bit unlucky as well.

  7. #10047
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by ThrashMetalFtw View Post
    Any1 else getting games count as "abandoned" after they have become "safe to leave"?

    Today I was even put into the "lower queue priority because of abandoned games or player reports" because of it. The game itself DCs, I'm unable to reconnect, and after a few minutes (and failed attempts at reconnecting), the game becomes safe to leave, and apparently this counts as "abandoning" it, when it obiously shouldn't.
    That means that you have abandoned and the game is safe to leave for the other people.

  8. #10048
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    This isn't because you afk'ed for too long?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamut View Post
    I just started playing dota. Finished tutorial vs bots and now wanted do 10 games from tutorial vs normal people. And oh my god its just nightmare. I lost so far every game (5 atm). Im ALWAYS playing 4v5 or even 3v5 because people are leaving at start or after 5-10 min. Even if its 4v5 people dont have idea what the hell they are doing. They just run around and die to everyone. Even when I tell help mid/top/bot coz there 3-4 enemies they do nothing and just let them destroy towers.

    Im new to this game but seriously. How someone can be sooo bad? All games for new players look like this or Im just very unlucky?
    Well you're kinda unlucky sort of not.

    I lost most of my first games. It just happens. DOTA is a very team play and role driven game which basically nobody gets when they start and thus games will wind up just being bad. It's not fun initially to fall victim to this but once you've played a couple more games the MM system will sort you with people of your own skill (most of the time).

    I guess the best piece of advice I can give you for low level pub matches is pick what role the team needs. I know it sounds simple. But more often than not most people will play carry heroes because initially that's all that they know - farm gold and kill.
    Learn each heroes role and why they fit in different teams and why one hero may counter another.

    The fact is that as you've probably realised in your first few games, not many people give a toss about how their hero compliments their team.

    Sadly there's not much you can do about people abandoning. It gets less frequent the more games you play. People also do it in the lower bracket simply because they don't realise they will get knocked down the lower priority queue.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2013-08-18 at 11:41 AM.

  9. #10049
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkenvalley View Post
    Supports are first and foremost going to have to deal with potential aggression. I am not asking someone to sit in the lane and just sap XP, but when I'm being harassed out of lane by two ranged heroes and they safely gank me because the creepwave is at the tower, then someone's doing shit wrong. You cannot just leave a relatively fragile hard carry alone versus two ranged and say "Deal with it," because that's just going to leave you with a severely underfarmed carry.
    Usually its the guy that picked a relatively fragile hard carry. I mean unless the other 2 enemy ranged heroes have no idea what they're doing, your "farm" lane is done for.

  10. #10050
    That means that you have abandoned and the game is safe to leave for the other people.
    But I didn't abandon it? I tried to reconnect, unsuccesfully. This has happened twice, and both times my internet was fine the entire time. Something was obviously wrong with the game/server, not my connection.
    They're (short for They are) describes a group of people. "They're/They are a nice bunch of guys." Their indicates that something belongs/is related to a group of people. "Their car was all out of fuel." There refers to a location. "Let's set up camp over there." There is also no such thing as "could/should OF". The correct way is: Could/should'VE, or could/should HAVE.
    Holyfury armory

  11. #10051
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by ThrashMetalFtw View Post
    But I didn't abandon it? I tried to reconnect, unsuccesfully. This has happened twice, and both times my internet was fine the entire time. Something was obviously wrong with the game/server, not my connection.
    You don't get an abandon if the server goes down and no one can reconnect. It has happened to me several times. You only get abandon if it was only you who couldn't connect.

  12. #10052
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    Usually its the guy that picked a relatively fragile hard carry. I mean unless the other 2 enemy ranged heroes have no idea what they're doing, your "farm" lane is done for.
    The implication you're making is that safelane is carry's solo lane. In anything resembling organized play that's probably fine, but applying this mentality to solo queue pubgames like All Pick is just daft.

    If you're up against two solo and you can't farm because of it you're going to need help. That's the end of the story. People here are talking as if supports shouldn't have to help their carry at any point in their life, and that's just daft. Supports are not expected to have a high level nor gold, since that's something they'll usually get "on the side" (pulling creepwave when the lane is safe, ganking when it's safe to rotate from the lane and/or teamfights).

    Supporting is not complex in and of itself. Before you do anything else, you need to make sure your carry is as safe from harm as it gets. That is not a complex mantra. If the carry is safe you can go farm in the jungle and, if you find the time, stack a camp. There are many more things you can do, and it has a fair amount of complexity, but your main task is simple.

    Pullcamp for farming is ideal for a number of reasons: It resets the creepline to your tower (or even further back if the carry pulls it away), denies the enemy heroes the XP if they're not skulking in XP range of pullcamp, and gets you free opportunity to farm. But pulling the creepwave is not at the top of priority list as some people seem to like to believe.

  13. #10053
    Deleted
    I agree with the dual lane side...I HATE the solo off-lane mindset,it's so annoying.
    Every friggin game someone has to jungle or trilane.I seriously WISH I sucked more at this game and I could go back to the simple brackets...2 dual lanes,1 mid lane,no one is a support bitch,farm for everyone,no ''carry'' this ''support'' that,if you can last hit the gold is yours....simply perfect
    This might be a noob way to play dota but that's how I love dota 2.

  14. #10054
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by ThrashMetalFtw View Post
    But I didn't abandon it? I tried to reconnect, unsuccesfully. This has happened twice, and both times my internet was fine the entire time. Something was obviously wrong with the game/server, not my connection.
    Since the update after TI3 there have been alot of problems with random players DC'ing and returning a couple of minutes later. Hopefully they are fixing that soon. I have not had the problem but there is almost one or two every single game at the moment :/

  15. #10055
    Scarab Lord Rhaeval's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerdoz View Post
    Since the update after TI3 there have been alot of problems with random players DC'ing and returning a couple of minutes later. Hopefully they are fixing that soon. I have not had the problem but there is almost one or two every single game at the moment :/
    Yeah i've been experiencing people D/Cing a lot. Matchmaking in general is broken atm, still waiting for some sort of fix

  16. #10056
    Quote Originally Posted by Kerdoz View Post
    Since the update after TI3 there have been alot of problems with random players DC'ing and returning a couple of minutes later. Hopefully they are fixing that soon. I have not had the problem but there is almost one or two every single game at the moment :/
    Its probably Steam messing up and not Dota 2.

    I had other games running on the background which i didnt get disconnected from while Dota 2 would refuse to reconnect, i quickle restarted Steam and everything was fine, this was before TI3.

  17. #10057
    Man oh man, this game seriously needs a votekick feature.....

    Just had 2 horrible games because of asshole right now.... sigh

  18. #10058
    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkenvalley View Post
    The implication you're making is that safelane is carry's solo lane. In anything resembling organized play that's probably fine, but applying this mentality to solo queue pubgames like All Pick is just daft.

    If you're up against two solo and you can't farm because of it you're going to need help. That's the end of the story. People here are talking as if supports shouldn't have to help their carry at any point in their life, and that's just daft. Supports are not expected to have a high level nor gold, since that's something they'll usually get "on the side" (pulling creepwave when the lane is safe, ganking when it's safe to rotate from the lane and/or teamfights).

    Supporting is not complex in and of itself. Before you do anything else, you need to make sure your carry is as safe from harm as it gets. That is not a complex mantra. If the carry is safe you can go farm in the jungle and, if you find the time, stack a camp. There are many more things you can do, and it has a fair amount of complexity, but your main task is simple.

    Pullcamp for farming is ideal for a number of reasons: It resets the creepline to your tower (or even further back if the carry pulls it away), denies the enemy heroes the XP if they're not skulking in XP range of pullcamp, and gets you free opportunity to farm. But pulling the creepwave is not at the top of priority list as some people seem to like to believe.
    pulling the camp IS a way to deal with agression, you have the relative safety of tower to get some lasthits (not to mention the secnod they see you pulled, they will likely rotate jungle and contest the camp, not dive you), which is about thousand times more safer than being between towers with underfarmed and underleveled support that just asks for a dive and kill everytime hes in enemy LoS.

    Start adapting to the given situation, buy a stout/poor man/ring for tranquils if you expect heavy harass and ask for an extra tangos, ask for an early gank from mid or other lane. Thats how you deal with bad lane matchup, not blaming supports for trying to give you somewhat safe space to farm... If you got some of the nasty combos like double stunners or annoying orbwalkers? well you wont be getting any farm even if the support sticks to the lane, since if they can harass you, they most likely can just combo kill him.

    Or alternatively, stop playing carrys if you dont like how supports are giving you space, play mid, be the one setting the pace of the game, make the ganks and kills happen, you will be the cheered hero, the one who won them the game, not the "pfft, had to farm for 30 minutes before he did anything" carry, who doesnt even like when supports give him safe(r) space to farm.

  19. #10059
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    pulling the camp IS a way to deal with agression, you have the relative safety of tower to get some lasthits (not to mention the secnod they see you pulled, they will likely rotate jungle and contest the camp, not dive you), which is about thousand times more safer than being between towers with underfarmed and underleveled support that just asks for a dive and kill everytime hes in enemy LoS.
    You don't get relative safety from the tower. If you believe that you're seriously misunderstanding how the towers work. If you've got creeps under the towers that's a free invitation to dive on you, since the aggro of the tower is easily displaced to the creeps. Stop trying to claim pulling creepwave is going to magically be enough to help a carry who's abandoned with heroes just waiting to bash your face in.

    The ideal location of the creepwave is just outside of your tower's range, since the absence of targets for the tower to be directed to means anyone diving has to take tower-hits. By the sideshop it's a bit scary, since the enemy can swing around via the jungle to get behind you. A ward in the jungle can spot this though. If you're by the river again it's "okay" so long as you have a ward on the jungle entrance from river, since you'll be able to see anyone rotating bot.

    Though in classic Dota 2 style, everything's got an asterisk. There's not an awful lot you can do if someone gets an invis rune and shows up with one or two others to give you surprise buttsex.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    Start adapting to the given situation, buy a stout/poor man/ring for tranquils if you expect heavy harass and ask for an extra tangos, ask for an early gank from mid or other lane. Thats how you deal with bad lane matchup, not blaming supports for trying to give you somewhat safe space to farm... If you got some of the nasty combos like double stunners or annoying orbwalkers? well you wont be getting any farm even if the support sticks to the lane, since if they can harass you, they most likely can just combo kill him.
    Here's the thing: Two versus one is going to shit on that one hero, unless it's something like Spirit Breaker vs Lina/Spectre early-game. Two versus two will be a match-up at least.

    Anyhow, why do you even think I shouldn't be able to ask for more from a support? Since when did pulling creepwave become so incredibly complex and timeconsuming that they're unable to make their presence known and provide some direct support for carry in lane?

  20. #10060
    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkenvalley View Post
    You don't get relative safety from the tower. If you believe that you're seriously misunderstanding how the towers work. If you've got creeps under the towers that's a free invitation to dive on you, since the aggro of the tower is easily displaced to the creeps. Stop trying to claim pulling creepwave is going to magically be enough to help a carry who's abandoned with heroes just waiting to bash your face in.
    maybe you dont understand how to play under towers with enemy creeps? they cant dive you if you position yourself properly and give them no opportunity to dive. And like I said, the moment they have no opening, they ARE gonna rotate jungle looking for the pull and the support



    Here's the thing: Two versus one is going to shit on that one hero, unless it's something like Spirit Breaker vs Lina/Spectre early-game. Two versus two will be a match-up at least.
    No. 2v2 is just slightly less bursty 3v3, there is no "match", there is one side in clear advantage in 95% scenarios

    Anyhow, why do you even think I shouldn't be able to ask for more from a support? Since when did pulling creepwave become so incredibly complex and timeconsuming that they're unable to make their presence known and provide some direct support for carry in lane?
    Yeah, you gotta play in horrible MMR if your supports dont make their presence known in those 40 seconds between pulls...maybe play the mids with map presence and get to better brackets? because I play in above average bracket and supports arent as horrible as you make them to be, I dont usually play carry if I can avoid it, I play sd/rd/ar exclusively and sometimes there is like no choice, but I can usually make some sort of arrangement with the support before the game starts and I got some absolutely amazing supports from time to time that got commend in the first three minutes of the game. Of course there are some that dont do much, but hey, Im not gonna complain about them if I cant achieve pro level of farm myself (or alteast most of the times)

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