1. #10101
    Go shadow blade armlet mask of madness, you won't have to support because enemy team will be dead.

    And I don't see why you would discount initiators. Some heroes like Sand King almost require Veil on top of Blink to do their job. Zeus will do far better with force staff than he will with daedalus (and he's even a carry hero!). Trying to pretend that Abaddon is remotely like any of the actual supports in the game in his item dependance seems to me like you're just playing devil's advocate and arguing just to argue.

    And I would absolutely get drums on Abaddon. I get drums on plenty of carrys.

  2. #10102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Go shadow blade armlet mask of madness, you won't have to support because enemy team will be dead.
    Buy rapier every game enemy dies enemy can't take rapier flawless plan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    And I don't see why you would discount initiators.
    Because the only support item they need is blink and nothing else unless they're Batrider. On a few like Sand King veil would be okay but far from as good as Atos AA

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Trying to pretend that Abaddon is remotely like any of the actual supports in the game in his item dependance
    What.
    All you need is an urn and boots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    seems to me like you're just playing devil's advocate and arguing just to argue.
    Or maybe I disagree.

  3. #10103
    Quote Originally Posted by Zefie View Post
    Buy rapier every game enemy dies enemy can't take rapier flawless plan.
    Don't be ridiculous, you have to plan to die as Abaddon. Your hope is to have enough health that killing you soaks most of their damage so your teammates all stay alive. That's what hybrid carrys do for their team.

    I would forever disagree that veil is just "okay" on sand king, that hero's ultimate doesn't actually hurt without it, the blink burrowstrike is way scarier.

    I don't know, I guess I'm biased because of all the games I play. People build Abaddon as a support and I flatten them, they build him as a carry and they flatten me, pretty much 100% of the time both ways.

    Also, you'll be happy to note that Necro + backup healers really is stupidly difficult to stop
    I'm not really sure what to do about it, AA ult I guess. Of course, it didn't help that SB had SB in 9 minutes, but I doubt we would've been able to defend barracks anyway.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2013-08-25 at 09:12 PM.

  4. #10104
    Quote Originally Posted by Saladin456 View Post
    An Ostarion is the sort of hero that you'd want being the main damage dealer, because the only place to lane him is in the safe lane.
    This makes so little sense my head is hurting a bit.


    And to be fair, there seems to be one one common misconception in all discussions like this. Inverted gold dependency is a good indicator of a hero's ability to function as a (hard) support. Low gold dependency, however, says absolutely nothing about a hero's ability to carry. The fact that a hero can function with low gold does not mean that high gold is wasted on them.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2013-08-25 at 09:39 PM.

  5. #10105
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    This makes so little sense my head is hurting a bit.


    And to be fair, there seems to be one one common misconception in all discussions like this. Inverted gold dependency is a good indicator of a hero's ability to function as a (hard) support. Low gold dependency, however, says absolutely nothing about a hero's ability to carry. The fact that a hero can function with low gold does not mean that high gold is wasted on them.
    I dont think people dont know that, after all we saw plenty of traditional "cores" go almost exclusively support. They arent saying "its only viable as support", they are saying "its gonna be played as support and someone else gets the farm" IMO.

  6. #10106
    On Abaddon I normally go

    Urn
    Phase boots
    sange-halberd
    MoM
    Basher-abys
    Crystal-daedalus

    If you have alot of hardhitters on the team I dont upgrade sange/crystal/basher and just swap urn for heart after i get those.

  7. #10107
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    I dont think people dont know that, after all we saw plenty of traditional "cores" go almost exclusively support. They arent saying "its only viable as support", they are saying "its gonna be played as support and someone else gets the farm" IMO.
    Yes, that's the other common sloppy argument in these discussions, 'why not give that farm to a hero that needs it more?' There's no point working on an assumption that your team is always going to have an Anti-Mage who is going to need all the farm on the map. And even if you have a hero that is usually better suited as the primary carry you're still going to want to have at least one secondary carry in most games.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2013-08-26 at 12:36 AM.

  8. #10108
    Just look at my poor Leoric game...roar/lasso/cogs/dead/dead a second time/dead a third time/team is all dead anyway because I'm the only one with items.

  9. #10109
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Just look at my poor Leoric game...roar/lasso/cogs/dead/dead a second time/dead a third time/team is all dead anyway because I'm the only one with items.
    I remember in DotA being yelled at for not giving away skadi to a sniper because i played KotL
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  10. #10110
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Yes, that's the other common sloppy argument in these discussions, 'why not give that farm to a hero that needs it more?' There's no point working on an assumption that your team is always going to have an Anti-Mage who is going to need all the farm on the map. And even if you have a hero that is usually better suited as the primary carry you're still going to want to have at least one secondary carry in most games.
    And there is no point working on an assumption that the team doesnt already have core slots filled either. If you have PL and then typical supports like jakiro and CM? sure, have the abba get the farm, but when you already have your core lineup pretty much done, there is no point in excessive farming. And lets be honest, pros arent gonna pick abba as farmer in anything but some rare pocket strats, just like we havent seen naga carry for months.

  11. #10111
    Does it even matter what pros do? How does that affect you when you play Dota2?

  12. #10112
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Does it even matter what pros do? How does that affect you when you play Dota2?
    In which case most games have overabundance of carries, making his entire point moot.

  13. #10113
    All the pros know how to do right now is throw their offlane away and send 2 supports to get their 1 carry in safe lane farmed. Of course Abaddon won't get picked in games like this, and that's what Longview was talking about, I believe (trilane Abaddon viability). I'm arguing how he should be played by most people, hey, like this game I just played:

    http://dotabuff.com/matches/287286730

  14. #10114
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    And there is no point working on an assumption that the team doesnt already have core slots filled either. If you have PL and then typical supports like jakiro and CM? sure, have the abba get the farm, but when you already have your core lineup pretty much done, there is no point in excessive farming. And lets be honest, pros arent gonna pick abba as farmer in anything but some rare pocket strats, just like we havent seen naga carry for months.
    When you're discussing the capabilities of a single hero, making counter-intuitive assumptions serves no point. If you're going to run Abaddon as carry, you probably don't want to intentionally pick 2 other melees as hard carries. There's no reason to say 'well if you run this hero as carry instead of support you're fucking other carries over' when there's no reason to think there are other carries.

    And what pros pick or do right now is completely irrelevant. Using drafting trends and the copycat scheme known as 'metagame' as an excuse is a joke.

  15. #10115
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    just out of curiosity did Abaddon even get any representation at all in ti3? I don't agree with the notion that what the pros do shouldn't count, obviously the way pros treat a hero should be a nod to how you and I may want to consider treating him. This isn't a hard rule but if one is trying to recreate success would it not be wise to follow the successful?
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  16. #10116
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    just out of curiosity did Abaddon even get any representation at all in ti3? I don't agree with the notion that what the pros do shouldn't count, obviously the way pros treat a hero should be a nod to how you and I may want to consider treating him. This isn't a hard rule but if one is trying to recreate success would it not be wise to follow the successful?
    Abaddon was not in Captain's Mode in Dota 2 until this week. Same goes to Centaur, TC and Troll.

    Obviously it's not a bad idea to be aware of how things are done in competitive circles, but no one should do the mistake of thinking that is the end all be all of dota.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2013-08-26 at 04:54 AM.

  17. #10117
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    just out of curiosity did Abaddon even get any representation at all in ti3?
    he did not get any representation, because he was not in tournament mode. same goes for elder titan, troll warlord, huskar and medusa.

    e: im slow btw

  18. #10118
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    This isn't a hard rule but if one is trying to recreate success would it not be wise to follow the successful?
    The winrate in tournaments is only 50%.

  19. #10119
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Abbadon is not his team's "main damage dealer", not even when played as a carry. Abbadon is the same as a Dragon Knight, or a Leoric, or a Bristleback - his job is to run in and be such a nuisance and such a colossal pain in the ass that the enemy team HAS to do something about him... but everything they're to him is something they aren't doing to Abbadon's "important" team members. He isn't there to kill people, not really... he's just there to fuck up the enemy team's positioning and coordination by virtue of being an annoying little shit, which lets his team poop on the enemy team while they're too busy cursing about Frostmourne or whatever.

    How is Abbadon's ability to use Aphotic Shield or throw shitcoils around at all affected by him building more aggressively and playing more aggressively? Abbadon's ability to "support" isn't reduced at all by playing him as a carry, but the inverse isn't true - if you build him as a support, you can't play him aggressively.

    So knowing that... why would you ever play him as a support?
    No ones ability to support reduced by playing as a carry
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  20. #10120
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    This isn't a hard rule but if one is trying to recreate success would it not be wise to follow the successful?
    Why would you? Repeating how pros play would be incredibly dangerous in most pubgames.

    There are some overarching trends that make sense, like support Naga and fun tricks like pulling creepwave, but so much of what they do needs to be understood before you go ahead and try and repeat it.

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