1. #10201
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Undying is better. Lich is better. Subjective opinions of course.
    neither fit in universally in any trilane as well as abaddon do

    undying maybe

    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    He is one of the best supports for first 5-15 minutes in the game, that's why he is so good at trilanes, because there is only first 5-15 minutes that matters.
    no

    its because if you trilane (esp offensive) your supports will be underleveled like hell

    unless the game ends at 15 minutes, i would say that the time after 15 minutes does matter

  2. #10202
    Support in pub games:
    Your team won, you get no recognizion.
    Your team lost, you get all the blame.

    And people wonder why supports are rare?
    Worst thing in the entire game is to be the only support on your team, all your gold used on wards and courier, unless you get assist kills you're basically gonna end up being a free kill for the enemy team. So much fun being level 13 with brown boots and magic wand.
    Honestly unless your team has 2 supports you almost shouldn't bother, it's such a unrewarding playstyle and it's HARD to do well.
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  3. #10203
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Support in pub games:
    Your team won, you get no recognizion.
    Your team lost, you get all the blame.

    And people wonder why supports are rare?
    Worst thing in the entire game is to be the only support on your team, all your gold used on wards and courier, unless you get assist kills you're basically gonna end up being a free kill for the enemy team. So much fun being level 13 with brown boots and magic wand.
    Honestly unless your team has 2 supports you almost shouldn't bother, it's such a unrewarding playstyle and it's HARD to do well.
    Yup, I would never support in solo queue to be honest. Supporting is a massive waste of time if you don't have good teammates. You can ward everywhere, stack every camp fifty times, but if your team doesn't know how to pay attention and farm nothing is going to be accomplished anyway. I dislike playing supports in general, but in solo queue it's not worth it at all. No matter what hero I random I play them as a carry, Lion, CM, Dazzle, Ancient Apparition, doesn't matter, they're a carry if I get them without friends in the game.

  4. #10204
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    The hell, i call Dazzle carry then.
    Dazzle is a great carry. As a matter of fact most heroes are, if played right.


    Saying you need an attack steroid skill to be a carry is downright ridiculous. And saying Abaddon has none is even more so. Even if you don't consider the spammable CC dispels and heals from shield and BT to be 'carry' traits, you'll still have to consider that Abaddon has good base MS, great attack animation, 40 IAS from Frostmourne, 20% Slow and 15% MS boost on top of his great base. More things to make you stick to your target than most melee carries can say. And 40 IAS isn't a joke, a lot of strength carries suffer from not getting enough IAS into their builds early.

  5. #10205
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Frostmourne is not his steroid - it's more like a team-wide buff, which you can (and should) apply even if you play Abaddon as a poor support with nothing but brown boots and sticks.

  6. #10206
    Deleted
    A little song for us supports, and also us who enjoy CM (and a little puck :P):

  7. #10207
    Quote Originally Posted by Kjalar View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Frostmourne is not his steroid - it's more like a team-wide buff, which you can (and should) apply even if you play Abaddon as a poor support with nothing but brown boots and sticks.
    So are Empowering Haste, Howl, Stygian Desolator and such, but these effects all exists to first and foremost buff yourself, the fact that everyone else benefit from them is a bonus. If you insist that Frostmourne is not a steroid, then neither are Trueshot Aura, Presence of the Dark Lord, Battle Trance, Amplify Damage, Natural Order... Well, you get the point.

    Your ability to actually be in the middle of a fight as an underfarmed, underleveled support is much more limited than that of a carry Abaddon, and when you don't actually deal damage you're also putting yourself at a considerable risk just to apply Frostmourne. You may still not die easily, but your ability to stay in the fight and avoid CC will be reduced greatly. When you're support, the decision on whether or not your should be in the middle of a fight may not be an easy one, but when you're carry it will be almost impossible to go wrong.

  8. #10208
    My choice of words was bad - Frostmourne is a steroid for a carry Abaddon, no doubt. My point is that a support Abaddon can provide it just as well, which means you can't just say "well, Abaddon has Frostmourne (steroid), hence he's a good carry", which you kinda implied in your previous post.

    As for the second part of your post - that's true, but like Lysah says, every CC and damage soaked by Abaddon = less CC and damage soaked by his team and I think it's a lot better if your tank is one of your supports, which lets real damage dealers (like AM, Gyro, Sven, Luna or anything else that can beat the crap out of the entire team if left alone in a team fight), well, deal damage.

    Anyway, I'm not trying to argue on how Abaddon should be played. I'm totally cool with even CM being played as a carry if that results in a won game. Just arguing about semantics, I guess.

  9. #10209
    Quote Originally Posted by Kjalar View Post
    My choice of words was bad - Frostmourne is a steroid for a carry Abaddon, no doubt. My point is that a support Abaddon can provide it just as well, which means you can't just say "well, Abaddon has Frostmourne (steroid), hence he's a good carry", which you kinda implied in your previous post.

    As for the second part of your post - that's true, but like Lysah says, every CC and damage soaked by Abaddon = less CC and damage soaked by his team and I think it's a lot better if your tank is one of your supports, which lets real damage dealers (like AM, Gyro, Sven, Luna or anything else that can beat the crap out of the entire team if left alone in a team fight), well, deal damage.

    Anyway, I'm not trying to argue on how Abaddon should be played. I'm totally cool with even CM being played as a carry if that results in a won game. Just arguing about semantics, I guess.

    You can't be a 'tank' without being a threat. As a lowly support you run in, eat a single CC and some AoE, your BT pops, and now you have to either make a stand or run for it. And as a melee you just become collateral damage when you sit on top of all your real damage dealers. Or if you stay apart from other heroes, you can just be ignored. Your enemy need to be afraid that you're going to cleave someone in half if they don't do anything about just you. If you're not dangerous by yourself, you risk either getting ignored or succumbing to every AoE ability your enemy has.

    Even if you can somehow force the enemy to toss a Primal Roar at you as a support, which would be a pretty good job, it would probably still be end of the front line fighting for you because you probably took enough damage to pop your BT which means you'll either run or die in a few seconds. As a carry you can just continue charging the enemy and they will be forced to throw even more stuff at you or get cleaved in half.

    And I can still say that Abaddon has Frostmourne which is part of what makes him a good carry. Shield is part what makes him a decent support, Frostmourne is rather weak for a support role ability. A bit like support Omniknight - Heal, Repel and GA make him a good support, but Degen Aura is slightly out of place in a support toolkit.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2013-08-27 at 11:21 AM.

  10. #10210
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    You can't be a 'tank' without being a threat. As a lowly support you run in, eat a single CC and some AoE, your BT pops, and now you have to either make a stand or run for it. And as a melee you just become collateral damage when you sit on top of all your real damage dealers. Or if you stay apart from other heroes, you can just be ignored. Your enemy need to be afraid that you're going to cleave someone in half if they don't do anything about just you. If you're not dangerous by yourself, you risk either getting ignored or succumbing to every AoE ability your enemy has.
    Well, you can say this about literally every hero in the game, if you play him as a support. If you're not scary for the other team, you run in, apply debuffs, spam shields and heals - mission accomplished. If they don't want you to do that (=you suddenly become scary), you eat their shit and die (and I guess Abaddon, even half-naked, will last longer than most supports in the middle of a fight anyway), while your team doesn't eat their shit and keeps fighting - mission accomplished. I don't see how this proves that he's a bad support, if that's what you're saying.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, do you realize that I exaggerated when I said "poor support with only brown boots and sticks"? Pretty sure that even when playing as a support, it's possible to find a bit of gold here and there to get a shield and some strength if Abaddon is expected to debuff people in team fights.

  11. #10211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Dazzle is a great carry. As a matter of fact most heroes are, if played right.


    Saying you need an attack steroid skill to be a carry is downright ridiculous. And saying Abaddon has none is even more so. Even if you don't consider the spammable CC dispels and heals from shield and BT to be 'carry' traits, you'll still have to consider that Abaddon has good base MS, great attack animation, 40 IAS from Frostmourne, 20% Slow and 15% MS boost on top of his great base. More things to make you stick to your target than most melee carries can say. And 40 IAS isn't a joke, a lot of strength carries suffer from not getting enough IAS into their builds early.
    I love a fast Armlet on Abbadon, maybe stopping for an Urn and/or Orb along the way. Makes you really hard to kill (armlet toggling even when Borrowed Time is on cooldown), it's easy to build, gives you a ridiculous amount of stats for the cost, and I feel it's still a late-game relevant item on Strength heroes so it never really falls off.

    But then again, I'm not quite as obsessed with Lothar's as Lysah is
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    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
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    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  12. #10212
    Quote Originally Posted by Kjalar View Post
    Well, you can say this about literally every hero in the game, if you play him as a support. If you're not scary for the other team, you run in, apply debuffs, spam shields and heals - mission accomplished. If they don't want you to do that (=you suddenly become scary), you eat their shit and die (and I guess Abaddon, even half-naked, will last longer than most supports in the middle of a fight anyway), while your team doesn't eat their shit and keeps fighting - mission accomplished. I don't see how this proves that he's a bad support, if that's what you're saying.
    The difference in here is that Abaddon is melee. That makes him much more difficult to position than most supports to be efficient with Frostmourne. And because of the nature of Frostmourne, you also want to be hitting whatever your damage dealers are hitting, and especially if they're melee, you're setting yourself up to eat a lot of shit that is being aimed at your carries. If you soak AoE silences and stuns and such you're also seriously hurting your ability to perform your other tasks, such as shielding the damn carry.

    Besides, brown boots and stick aren't all that unlikely for 20 minute items if you're the only support in your team.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    I love a fast Armlet on Abbadon, maybe stopping for an Urn and/or Orb along the way. Makes you really hard to kill (armlet toggling even when Borrowed Time is on cooldown), it's easy to build, gives you a ridiculous amount of stats for the cost, and I feel it's still a late-game relevant item on Strength heroes so it never really falls off.
    I'd definitely build Armlet for LoA, even if I had to play as a kind of a support I'd still try to finish it at some point. One 2600 gold item turns you into a threat against most heroes and makes you that much harder to kill. Too bad I've only played Abaddon twice so far since dota/hon days.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2013-08-27 at 12:38 PM.

  13. #10213

  14. #10214
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    So are Empowering Haste, Howl, Stygian Desolator and such, but these effects all exists to first and foremost buff yourself, the fact that everyone else benefit from them is a bonus. If you insist that Frostmourne is not a steroid, then neither are Trueshot Aura, Presence of the Dark Lord, Battle Trance, Amplify Damage, Natural Order... Well, you get the point.

    Your ability to actually be in the middle of a fight as an underfarmed, underleveled support is much more limited than that of a carry Abaddon, and when you don't actually deal damage you're also putting yourself at a considerable risk just to apply Frostmourne. You may still not die easily, but your ability to stay in the fight and avoid CC will be reduced greatly. When you're support, the decision on whether or not your should be in the middle of a fight may not be an easy one, but when you're carry it will be almost impossible to go wrong.
    You guys keep going on about the "anyone can be a carry". It's consistently amusing when you do. Mainly because I know you are smart enough to know why certain heroes are played as carries and some aren't. You can keep arguing all day that so and so can carry, but it would never happen in a serious game. Though I do recall a game at TI3 where a team tried an omni carry and got stomped on so hard it was hard to watch.

    As for all those abilities you listed, you picked all these abilities trying to demonstrate that heroes that are traditionally played as carries have abilities that are teamwide buffs, and therefore trying to imply that they should be supports using the same logic that says Frostmourne is a support aura. The only problem is, they are almost all abilities of heroes who have OTHER self-steroids.

    Empowering Haste - Ironically he's usually played as a support in competitive dota, but his Greater Bash is a self-steroid
    Howl - Lycan has Shapeshift
    Presence of the Dark Lord - SF has Necromastery
    Battle Trance - Troll also has Fervor
    Amplify Damage - Slardar also has Bash
    Natural Order - I wouldn't call him a carry, but Astral Spirit is a self buff
    Trueshot Aura - Drow has Marksmanship

    So, pretty much all of your examples are poor examples. Most, if not all, carries are played due to the fact farm on them is amplified or more significant in a way. If you want to call Abbaddon a carry in a similar vein as Necro, where you get all tanky and shit and stand on the front lines, spamming heals and shields on everyone, then I can understand that. But at the end of the day, some heroes are better at some things than other heroes. Can Dazzle carry a pub game? Sure. Can I eat a steak with a spoon? Sure. Are either of those the best tool for the job? Nope.

    Oh, and I'm looking forward to everyones responses about how this one time they totally dominated with a carry cm.

  15. #10215
    Stood in the Fire Nelavar's Avatar
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    This Abbadon stuff is really going in circles. I dont think anyone has claimed that Abbadon would have more damage output than any hypercarry out there going into lategame. But that is not the point of carry Abbadon anyway so it doesnt really matter

  16. #10216
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyzz View Post
    You guys keep going on about the "anyone can be a carry". It's consistently amusing when you do. Mainly because I know you are smart enough to know why certain heroes are played as carries and some aren't. You can keep arguing all day that so and so can carry, but it would never happen in a serious game. Though I do recall a game at TI3 where a team tried an omni carry and got stomped on so hard it was hard to watch.
    You can keep yapping about pros all day and you still don't have an argument. If you lack understanding to make up some real discussion then too bad. Pro trends come and go and if you follow the scene closely for years you'll understand that there are no absolutes, trend shifts are often arbitrary and heroes and roles come and go at the whims of players. 'The meta' is just a slowly revolving game of rock-paper-scissors where it takes anywhere from 2 weeks to 12 months for someone to realize that everyone is playing scissors, time to learn rock. A year ago N'aix was a joke pick and someone trying to run a support Naga was laughed at. Someone failed to carry with omni at TI3? Too bad, but sample size of 1 does really not make basis for good judgement. If you really think pros know something a common player can't know then why on earth would they bet the most important tournament of the year on something they don't expect to work?

    All my examples were good ones. I'm perfectly aware that said heroes have other damaging abilities and that didn't matter at all for the argument I was making.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2013-08-27 at 10:52 PM.

  17. #10217
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    The difference in here is that Abaddon is melee. That makes him much more difficult to position than most supports to be efficient with Frostmourne. And because of the nature of Frostmourne, you also want to be hitting whatever your damage dealers are hitting, and especially if they're melee, you're setting yourself up to eat a lot of shit that is being aimed at your carries. If you soak AoE silences and stuns and such you're also seriously hurting your ability to perform your other tasks, such as shielding the damn carry.
    Black hole is a strong AOE disable that goes through magic immunity, hence picking Enigma guarantees wins.
    See what I did there? That's called vague statement. Now please re-read your post. "If you try to get in melee to apply debuffs, you'll get cleaved and silenced and end up dead, hence that's a bad idea". Sure, I agree.

  18. #10218
    Quote Originally Posted by Kjalar View Post
    Black hole is a strong AOE disable that goes through magic immunity, hence picking Enigma guarantees wins.
    See what I did there? That's called vague statement. Now please re-read your post. "If you try to get in melee to apply debuffs, you'll get cleaved and silenced and end up dead, hence that's a bad idea". Sure, I agree.
    It's vague because I assumed it would be obvious what I'm talking about so I don't need to write a lengthy example about support Abaddon trying to merrily run side by side with a Sven against a team with a couple of Linas and Lions. Enigma can be dealt with in a multitude of ways through team effort, but an Abaddon without any farm only has so many ways to stay in the dead center of a fight for longer than 5 seconds and your teammates can't do much about that.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2013-08-28 at 06:40 AM.

  19. #10219
    Abaddon doesn't need farm, phase drums armlet is a pretty cheap build.

  20. #10220
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Theirs a couple of "mods" i guess you could call them out there for dota. One lets you pan your camera out further than the default game lets you. Anyone know if this is legit and can be used without ban?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

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