1. #10201
    You don't have to farm to play a hero as a carry. To BE the carry, maybe, to play like one, no.

  2. #10202
    Quote Originally Posted by Nangz View Post
    Sure, but for less he could buy a hyperstone to build into better items and give double the IAS.
    True, but finishing up those Hyperstone items is also twice the cost.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2013-08-25 at 09:37 PM.

  3. #10203
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    You don't have to farm to play a hero as a carry. To BE the carry, maybe, to play like one, no.
    Yeah but there's not a hero in the game on whom buying a Daedalus would stop you entirely from casting your support spells. Maybe Tide if that's all you have but it's not like Abaddon never runs oom either.

  4. #10204
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    What did she say that makes those two blurbs contradict each other?
    She said that the carry is the person that has the most gold. In this specific case, the crystal maiden was the person with the most gold, yet she was unable to carry. Blink dagger isn't a carry item, but I would definitely say that BKB is. Anything that improves your ability to right click improves your damage output, which makes you a more effective carry. I wasn't exactly saying that CM is unable to carry (anyone can carry if they have a big enough gold advantage), I was saying that having the most gold /=/ being the carry.

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Abbadon is not his team's "main damage dealer", not even when played as a carry. Abbadon is the same as a Dragon Knight, or a Leoric, or a Bristleback - his job is to run in and be such a nuisance and such a colossal pain in the ass that the enemy team HAS to do something about him... but everything they're to him is something they aren't doing to Abbadon's "important" team members. He isn't there to kill people, not really... he's just there to fuck up the enemy team's positioning and coordination by virtue of being an annoying little shit, which lets his team poop on the enemy team while they're too busy cursing about Frostmourne or whatever.
    An Ostarion (see I can use hero first names too) is the sort of hero that you'd want being the main damage dealer, because the only place to lane him is in the safe lane. He's not the best at it, but it's the position he's best at, if you see what I mean. DK is normally played as a tanky initiator right now in the pro scene, but he also has the potential to be a right-click powerhouse - but again, he's not the best. I think the problem here is that we are not agreeing on the definition of a carry. To me, the carry is the hero that someone who doesn't know much about dota is doing all the work for his team, i.e. the main damage dealer.


    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    How is Abbadon's ability to use Aphotic Shield or throw shitcoils around at all affected by him building more aggressively and playing more aggressively? Abbadon's ability to "support" isn't reduced at all by playing him as a carry, but the inverse isn't true - if you build him as a support, you can't play him aggressively.

    So knowing that... why would you ever play him as a support?
    OK, this is a decent point, but the main reason I would play him as a support is because there is a limited amount of farm available, and it could go to someone who needs it more than Abaddon. Also, in pubs, the ability to do something often does not matter so much as the will to do something. How many normal (or high) bracket publords are going to save the ward bitch who's been winning the game for them so far, when they could keep all their abilities for themselves? This doesn't apply to people with common sense, but I doubt anyone here would actually pick Abaddon in a -cm game if they actually were serious about winning.

  5. #10205
    Quote Originally Posted by Zefie View Post
    Yeah but there's not a hero in the game on whom buying a Daedalus would stop you entirely from casting your support spells. Maybe Tide if that's all you have but it's not like Abaddon never runs oom either.
    Try getting a Eul's on Jakiro to guarantee you set up ice paths or an Atos on AA to combo with cold feet. Plenty of heroes are better with support items, Abaddon is not.

    crystal maiden was the person with the most gold, yet she was unable to carry.
    Then he bought the wrong items and is bad and lost the game for his team. First rule of carrying is that if you don't know how to do it you let someone else have the gold.

    And I would pick Abaddon in a -cm game if I was serious about winning. There are very few heroes I would avoid picking in CM. Meepo is about the only one that comes to mind immediately, and that's only because you would have to build your entire team around him and last pick him, which would only work once before people saw your strategy in advance. There is more than one way to play DotA, even if the professional scene leads us to believe otherwise.

    Oh, I would never pick Broodmother. Christ that hero is just godawful. Maybe if you have last pick and you notice your enemy team neglected to pick a single source of AoE.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2013-08-25 at 08:38 PM.

  6. #10206
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Try getting a Eul's on Jakiro to guarantee you set up ice paths or an Atos on AA to combo with cold feet. Plenty of heroes are better with support items, Abaddon is not.
    Not counting initiators like Tide there are like 3 support heroes in the pool who would be seriously dependent on items like Atos/Euls/Blink.
    Also
    Urn, Vlads, possibly Necrobook, Halberd, Drums, Medallion.
    All great support items, all of them at least decent on Abaddon. No you're not a 5 but nobody said 5 they just said support.

    I'll admit that in the few support games I've played as him I've often been confused as to what to buy next.
    If there's really nothing I can just pick up a casual Maelstrom though.
    Last edited by mmoc24ed1da916; 2013-08-25 at 08:42 PM.

  7. #10207
    Go shadow blade armlet mask of madness, you won't have to support because enemy team will be dead.

    And I don't see why you would discount initiators. Some heroes like Sand King almost require Veil on top of Blink to do their job. Zeus will do far better with force staff than he will with daedalus (and he's even a carry hero!). Trying to pretend that Abaddon is remotely like any of the actual supports in the game in his item dependance seems to me like you're just playing devil's advocate and arguing just to argue.

    And I would absolutely get drums on Abaddon. I get drums on plenty of carrys.

  8. #10208
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Go shadow blade armlet mask of madness, you won't have to support because enemy team will be dead.
    Buy rapier every game enemy dies enemy can't take rapier flawless plan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    And I don't see why you would discount initiators.
    Because the only support item they need is blink and nothing else unless they're Batrider. On a few like Sand King veil would be okay but far from as good as Atos AA

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Trying to pretend that Abaddon is remotely like any of the actual supports in the game in his item dependance
    What.
    All you need is an urn and boots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    seems to me like you're just playing devil's advocate and arguing just to argue.
    Or maybe I disagree.

  9. #10209
    Quote Originally Posted by Zefie View Post
    Buy rapier every game enemy dies enemy can't take rapier flawless plan.
    Don't be ridiculous, you have to plan to die as Abaddon. Your hope is to have enough health that killing you soaks most of their damage so your teammates all stay alive. That's what hybrid carrys do for their team.

    I would forever disagree that veil is just "okay" on sand king, that hero's ultimate doesn't actually hurt without it, the blink burrowstrike is way scarier.

    I don't know, I guess I'm biased because of all the games I play. People build Abaddon as a support and I flatten them, they build him as a carry and they flatten me, pretty much 100% of the time both ways.

    Also, you'll be happy to note that Necro + backup healers really is stupidly difficult to stop
    I'm not really sure what to do about it, AA ult I guess. Of course, it didn't help that SB had SB in 9 minutes, but I doubt we would've been able to defend barracks anyway.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2013-08-25 at 09:12 PM.

  10. #10210
    Quote Originally Posted by Saladin456 View Post
    An Ostarion is the sort of hero that you'd want being the main damage dealer, because the only place to lane him is in the safe lane.
    This makes so little sense my head is hurting a bit.


    And to be fair, there seems to be one one common misconception in all discussions like this. Inverted gold dependency is a good indicator of a hero's ability to function as a (hard) support. Low gold dependency, however, says absolutely nothing about a hero's ability to carry. The fact that a hero can function with low gold does not mean that high gold is wasted on them.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2013-08-25 at 09:39 PM.

  11. #10211
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    This makes so little sense my head is hurting a bit.


    And to be fair, there seems to be one one common misconception in all discussions like this. Inverted gold dependency is a good indicator of a hero's ability to function as a (hard) support. Low gold dependency, however, says absolutely nothing about a hero's ability to carry. The fact that a hero can function with low gold does not mean that high gold is wasted on them.
    I dont think people dont know that, after all we saw plenty of traditional "cores" go almost exclusively support. They arent saying "its only viable as support", they are saying "its gonna be played as support and someone else gets the farm" IMO.

  12. #10212
    On Abaddon I normally go

    Urn
    Phase boots
    sange-halberd
    MoM
    Basher-abys
    Crystal-daedalus

    If you have alot of hardhitters on the team I dont upgrade sange/crystal/basher and just swap urn for heart after i get those.

  13. #10213
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    I dont think people dont know that, after all we saw plenty of traditional "cores" go almost exclusively support. They arent saying "its only viable as support", they are saying "its gonna be played as support and someone else gets the farm" IMO.
    Yes, that's the other common sloppy argument in these discussions, 'why not give that farm to a hero that needs it more?' There's no point working on an assumption that your team is always going to have an Anti-Mage who is going to need all the farm on the map. And even if you have a hero that is usually better suited as the primary carry you're still going to want to have at least one secondary carry in most games.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2013-08-26 at 12:36 AM.

  14. #10214
    Just look at my poor Leoric game...roar/lasso/cogs/dead/dead a second time/dead a third time/team is all dead anyway because I'm the only one with items.

  15. #10215
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Russia, Chelyabinsk (Tankograd)
    Posts
    13,620
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Just look at my poor Leoric game...roar/lasso/cogs/dead/dead a second time/dead a third time/team is all dead anyway because I'm the only one with items.
    I remember in DotA being yelled at for not giving away skadi to a sniper because i played KotL
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  16. #10216
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Yes, that's the other common sloppy argument in these discussions, 'why not give that farm to a hero that needs it more?' There's no point working on an assumption that your team is always going to have an Anti-Mage who is going to need all the farm on the map. And even if you have a hero that is usually better suited as the primary carry you're still going to want to have at least one secondary carry in most games.
    And there is no point working on an assumption that the team doesnt already have core slots filled either. If you have PL and then typical supports like jakiro and CM? sure, have the abba get the farm, but when you already have your core lineup pretty much done, there is no point in excessive farming. And lets be honest, pros arent gonna pick abba as farmer in anything but some rare pocket strats, just like we havent seen naga carry for months.

  17. #10217
    Does it even matter what pros do? How does that affect you when you play Dota2?

  18. #10218
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Does it even matter what pros do? How does that affect you when you play Dota2?
    In which case most games have overabundance of carries, making his entire point moot.

  19. #10219
    All the pros know how to do right now is throw their offlane away and send 2 supports to get their 1 carry in safe lane farmed. Of course Abaddon won't get picked in games like this, and that's what Longview was talking about, I believe (trilane Abaddon viability). I'm arguing how he should be played by most people, hey, like this game I just played:

    http://dotabuff.com/matches/287286730

  20. #10220
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    And there is no point working on an assumption that the team doesnt already have core slots filled either. If you have PL and then typical supports like jakiro and CM? sure, have the abba get the farm, but when you already have your core lineup pretty much done, there is no point in excessive farming. And lets be honest, pros arent gonna pick abba as farmer in anything but some rare pocket strats, just like we havent seen naga carry for months.
    When you're discussing the capabilities of a single hero, making counter-intuitive assumptions serves no point. If you're going to run Abaddon as carry, you probably don't want to intentionally pick 2 other melees as hard carries. There's no reason to say 'well if you run this hero as carry instead of support you're fucking other carries over' when there's no reason to think there are other carries.

    And what pros pick or do right now is completely irrelevant. Using drafting trends and the copycat scheme known as 'metagame' as an excuse is a joke.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •