1. #10201
    Going bfury on PA is a guaranteed way to lose.

  2. #10202
    plus in reality, i haven't seen people cleaving much in teamfights (outside of reverse polarity) at any skill level

  3. #10203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    plus in reality, i haven't seen people cleaving much in teamfights (outside of reverse polarity) at any skill level
    Well, in reality i haven't seen much Timbersaw who will land all his shots on one enemy. Usually they just randomly throw everything at all sides

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Going bfury on PA is a guaranteed way to lose.
    http://dotabuff.com/items/battlefury
    Well, it's more like 42% way to lose
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  4. #10204
    40% winrate makes you as good as broodmother. Think about it.

  5. #10205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    40% winrate makes you as good as broodmother. Think about it.
    Assuming that 90% of players has 50% winrate, i'm OK with it
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  6. #10206
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Tranquil provides better regeneration,
    Only if you get to heal completely uninterrupted. You don't get Vanguard to sit in freefarm lanes where nobody could stop you from using Tranquils.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    PMS is cheaper and provides solid block
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    , casual Vitality Booster
    You know what this + Tranquils costs? As much as a Vanguard anyway. Sure you could disassemble the Tranquils but what are you gonna build with it? Vlads? An okay item but hardly something I'd consider on a carry in most, if any, stages of the game. Your supports would have to be pretty item dependent not to build it for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    can be built into Heart
    In 40 minutes after you farm all the other items you need, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Drums provide health and other useful stats.
    Yes, other useful stats, but not defensive ones except maybe the 1 armor and mspeed. Vanguard is purely defensive stats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    The only thing Vanguard allows you to do is to fight early. Spectre and AM aren't usually that strong early game even with a Vanguard. If you want to fight, maybe you should pick a hero that is good at that.
    Maybe it's just me but a Vanguard AM -is- good at fighting simply because he'll never die. A Spectre not so much but she's very safe both in lane and if she haunts into a bad location.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    For Vanguard to pay off on AM you better get pretty many kills because if the opposing team sees you building Vangaurd and start going more defensive and just decide to outfarm you (Alliance style) then you're in a pickle because AM doesn't farm fast without BF.
    Not all lineups are suited for going defensive and outfarming you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marston View Post
    Dat gif. xD
    Well, one of the newer heroes I never played in DotA 1, so I may finally play her at least once to find out I suck horribly with her! \o/
    FTFY. They're making him a girl.
    Last edited by mmoc24ed1da916; 2013-08-30 at 09:11 AM.

  7. #10207
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zefie View Post
    Only if you get to heal completely uninterrupted. You don't get Vanguard to sit in freefarm lanes where nobody could stop you from using Tranquils.
    If you build Vanguard, you will get a RoH and Stout for lane harass. Tranquil + PMS is superior. You get Vanguard later to go fight, right? Regenration means nothing then so it becomes PMS + Tranq + Vitality Booster vs Vanguard. Vanguard doesn't do much more and can't be disassembled while you can just save your Vitality for later and still keep the benefit from it all the way there.

    You know what this + Tranquils costs? As much as a Vanguard anyway. Sure you could disassemble the Tranquils but what are you gonna build with it? Vlads? An okay item but hardly something I'd consider on a carry in most, if any, stages of the game. Your supports would have to be pretty item dependent not to build it for you.
    You can't count the boots cause you will have to have boots with Vanguard anyways. So it's cheaper and comes online earlier at perfect timing.

    In 40 minutes after you farm all the other items you need, yes.
    Yes...?

    Maybe it's just me but a Vanguard AM -is- good at fighting simply because he'll never die. A Spectre not so much but she's very safe both in lane and if she haunts into a bad location.
    An AM with Vanguard doesn't do much compared to an Alchemist with SB, Naix with Armlet, Gyrocoptor with Drums, PA with Vanguard, Void with Mael or something. You run in as AM and do some hits on enemy. You require stun on them or something else they will just run if they can't fight you. You don't hit very hard early, you don't have all spells maxed cause of levels. AM isn't really that impressive early game. AM falls short to many other carries early. His strength is his flash farming ability and mobility around the map to put pressure on lanes, making enemy movement very obvious and forces them to defend towers.

    Not all lineups are suited for going defensive and outfarming you.
    Sure, but what's your point? It's either you or them.

  8. #10208
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Yes...?
    Tranquils + PMS + vit booster is 3 slots. TP is a 4th slot.
    You now effectively have 2 slots to build things in. Sure you could build 2 core items and then finish up your heart but your inventory is heavily limited in terms of what you can carry around.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    An AM with Vanguard doesn't do much compared to an Alchemist with SB, Naix with Armlet, Gyrocoptor with Drums, PA with Vanguard, Void with Mael or something. You run in as AM and do some hits on enemy. You require stun on them or something else they will just run if they can't fight you.
    Maybe not Alch, Naix, or PA but unless the enemy eats Barrage and Calldown he's probably just as strong as Gyro and possibly Void depending on how well his team can be active during his Chrono.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    You don't hit very hard early, you don't have all spells maxed cause of levels. AM isn't really that impressive early game. AM falls short to many other carries early. His strength is his flash farming ability and mobility around the map to put pressure on lanes, making enemy movement very obvious and forces them to defend towers.
    AM with Agi treads at level 7 does 1.09 attacks per second and hits for 117 with maxed Mana Break.
    Alch with Phase + Sblade at level 7 with ult up does 0.99 attacks per second and hits for 112.

    The main difference lies in situationally available damage. Alch can't fight without ult and outside of Acid Spray while Antimage can fight anywhere. Concoction and Sblade bonus damage are about equivalent to a decent Mana Void as far as my DotA knowledge goes but I could be wrong.
    I can't be arsed to do calculations on what happens if they get another ~2k gold to play around with so AM can get Yasha but as far as I'm aware he'd do a lot more by then.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Sure, but what's your point? It's either you or them.
    My point is that if you go Vanguard build and the enemy doesn't have sufficient counterpush or teamfight ability, their ancient will explode and yours won't, even if their lategame is better.

  9. #10209
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zefie View Post
    Tranquils + PMS + vit booster is 3 slots. TP is a 4th slot.
    You now effectively have 2 slots to build things in. Sure you could build 2 core items and then finish up your heart but your inventory is heavily limited in terms of what you can carry around.
    I'm sure you can sell PMS once you got 1 or 2 cores. What do you mean limited of what you can carry around?

    Maybe not Alch, Naix, or PA but unless the enemy eats Barrage and Calldown he's probably just as strong as Gyro and possibly Void depending on how well his team can be active during his Chrono.
    Flak is pretty decent. Call down alone makes Gyro better early game. Barrage is such a short cooldown so you can use it again if you miss it.

    AM with Agi treads at level 7 does 1.09 attacks per second and hits for 117 with maxed Mana Break.
    Alch with Phase + Sblade at level 7 with ult up does 0.99 attacks per second and hits for 112.

    The main difference lies in situationally available damage. Alch can't fight without ult and outside of Acid Spray while Antimage can fight anywhere. Concoction and Sblade bonus damage are about equivalent to a decent Mana Void as far as my DotA knowledge goes but I could be wrong.
    I can't be arsed to do calculations on what happens if they get another ~2k gold to play around with so AM can get Yasha but as far as I'm aware he'd do a lot more by then.
    Alch stun in SB can pretty much solo kill any support or farmer. SB alch is one of the most scary thing to face when you try to farm or push. Alch SB allows for initiation. Alch acid also provides counter push and push. Alch with a SB farms way faster than an AM with a Vanguard too.

    My point is that if you go Vanguard build and the enemy doesn't have sufficient counterpush or teamfight ability, their ancient will explode and yours won't, even if their lategame is better
    I don't understand. If your team is that strong to be able to push towers and to fight the enemy with a Vanguard AM, why wouldn't you be able to fight without AM?

  10. #10210
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    I'm sure you can sell PMS once you got 1 or 2 cores. What do you mean limited of what you can carry around?
    You know how you can't carry more than 6 items.
    That.
    Once you finish up your Manta and you want, say, BKB, you're gonna have to choose between 16 damage or 190 health in your inventory while it finishes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Flak is pretty decent. Call down alone makes Gyro better early game. Barrage is such a short cooldown so you can use it again if you miss it.
    You're still heavily limited by your mana. Flak + Barrage + Calldown is already ~270 mana. Successive Barrages build up quickly, especially if you didn't just TP in from base.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Alch stun in SB can pretty much solo kill any support or farmer. SB alch is one of the most scary thing to face when you try to farm or push. Alch SB allows for initiation. Alch acid also provides counter push and push. Alch with a SB farms way faster than an AM with a Vanguard too.
    And now you're just listing different strengths of the hero in certain situations not related to the one I put forth. It's just as possible that the enemy team is aware that Alch has an SB and simply sentries up and makes him disable himself when he tries to initiate. My point isn't so much that Vanguard AM beats -literally everything- but that it's good in some situations.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    I don't understand. If your team is that strong to be able to push towers and to fight the enemy with a Vanguard AM, why wouldn't you be able to fight without AM?
    Because, all things equal, 5 heroes are stronger than 4?

  11. #10211
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zefie View Post
    You know how you can't carry more than 6 items.
    That.
    Once you finish up your Manta and you want, say, BKB, you're gonna have to choose between 16 damage or 190 health in your inventory while it finishes.
    Sure, you lose one slot by having Vitality Booster.

    You're still heavily limited by your mana. Flak + Barrage + Calldown is already ~270 mana. Successive Barrages build up quickly, especially if you didn't just TP in from base.
    Well, I'm sure Drums Gyro can support that, as I listed.

    And now you're just listing different strengths of the hero in certain situations not related to the one I put forth. It's just as possible that the enemy team is aware that Alch has an SB and simply sentries up and makes him disable himself when he tries to initiate. My point isn't so much that Vanguard AM beats -literally everything- but that it's good in some situations.
    I am not. I said SB Alch provides more early game. I listed what he provides. If you can force the enemy to buy sentries and start hugging as five by just the virtue of having SB, I think you pretty much won. Sentries range isn't that large either so you can for sure charge the stun behind tower and run in an release it or just turn back. But my point was that Alch SB provides so much more than an AM with Vanguard.

    Because, all things equal, 5 heroes are stronger than 4?
    My point was that AM Vanguard isn't going to contribute enough so you can suddenly start pushing throne if you couldn't win as 4. And that's when the enemy team can farm instead of fight you.

  12. #10212
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Sure, you lose one slot by having Vitality Booster.
    If you sell the PMS you're still losing gold.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Well, I'm sure Drums Gyro can support that, as I listed.
    Drums Gyro at 7 has like 600 mana. Sure if he doesn't do much else he can sustain it for a fight but if he wants to farm as fast as he can otherwise, not really.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    I am not. I said SB Alch provides more early game. I listed what he provides.
    Maybe it's just me but a Vanguard AM -is- good at fighting simply because he'll never die.
    An AM with Vanguard doesn't do much compared to an Alchemist with SB
    Maybe out of context but not in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    If you can force the enemy to buy sentries and start hugging as five by just the virtue of having SB, I think you pretty much won. Sentries range isn't that large either so you can for sure charge the stun behind tower and run in an release it or just turn back.
    But then you're not really initiating because your (presumably) primary source of damage is busy running all the way over to his target for the duration his stun lasts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    My point was that AM Vanguard isn't going to contribute enough so you can suddenly start pushing throne if you couldn't win as 4. And that's when the enemy team can farm instead of fight you.
    You can't outfarm someone if your ancient is dead.

  13. #10213
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zefie View Post
    If you sell the PMS you're still losing gold.
    You're losing 275 gold. An average AM in an average game should have about 650 GPM. It takes 25 seconds to make this back.

  14. #10214
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Saladin456 View Post
    You're losing 275 gold. An average AM in an average game should have about 650 GPM. It takes 25 seconds to make this back.
    275 gold + the stats you would've had anyway if you had just bought Vanguard.

    Also I just checked dota-academy for shits and giggles.
    Average win GPM is ~670. Average GPM overall is 560.
    Last edited by mmoc24ed1da916; 2013-08-30 at 06:37 PM.

  15. #10215
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Going bfury on PA is a guaranteed way to lose.
    What would be the best to go with then? serious question

  16. #10216
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zefie View Post
    If you sell the PMS you're still losing gold.
    Gold well invested. Vanguard, not so much. PMS combined with other items allows you to do basically whatever Vanguard allows you to do but for a cheaper price and faster farm.

    Drums Gyro at 7 has like 600 mana. Sure if he doesn't do much else he can sustain it for a fight but if he wants to farm as fast as he can otherwise, not really.
    Last time I checked most Gyros go Basilius or Aquila and if you start team fighting, you got mana boots from team. Mana isn't an issue for Gyro in team fights. You'd know this is you've ever played him or seen him be played. You can also get a stick.

    Maybe out of context but not in it.
    What?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aríadne
    You don't hit very hard early, you don't have all spells maxed cause of levels. AM isn't really that impressive early game. AM falls short to many other carries early. His strength is his flash farming ability and mobility around the map to put pressure on lanes, making enemy movement very obvious and forces them to defend towers.
    This was what you quoted so I was talking from that perspective. What was it you were talking about? And level 7 AM with max Mana Break is either an AM without a point in Spell Shield or only level 2 in Blink.

    But then you're not really initiating because your (presumably) primary source of damage is busy running all the way over to his target for the duration his stun lasts.
    Yes you are, because you catch a guy out of position with the stun. And that is only under the assumption that they have perfect sentry wards and you don't have any. If they don't, Alch is a perfect initiator. Haven't you seen Alchemist games with SB? They initiate plenty, no matter what skill level.

    You can't outfarm someone if your ancient is dead.
    Please read again. A team that can push throne with a Vanguard AM should be able to hold their own 4v5 quite easily.

  17. #10217
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Gold well invested. Vanguard, not so much. PMS combined with other items allows you to do basically whatever Vanguard allows you to do but for a cheaper price and faster farm.
    Except you can't fight nearly as well with PMS + Tranquils and casual Vit booster. It's silly to act like you can.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Last time I checked most Gyros go Basilius or Aquila and if you start team fighting, you got mana boots from team. Mana isn't an issue for Gyro in team fights. You'd know this is you've ever played him or seen him be played. You can also get a stick.
    Aquilas is another 1000 gold spent. If he just buys an Aquilas just like that what's to say AM can't just buy a Blade of Alacrity.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    This was what you quoted so I was talking from that perspective. What was it you were talking about? And level 7 AM with max Mana Break is either an AM without a point in Spell Shield or only level 2 in Blink.
    What, when did I quote that.
    The only thing Vanguard allows you to do is to fight early. Spectre and AM aren't usually that strong early game even with a Vanguard. If you want to fight, maybe you should pick a hero that is good at that.
    Maybe it's just me but a Vanguard AM -is- good at fighting simply because he'll never die. A Spectre not so much but she's very safe both in lane and if she haunts into a bad location.
    An AM with Vanguard doesn't do much compared to an Alchemist with SB, Naix with Armlet, Gyrocoptor with Drums, PA with Vanguard, Void with Mael or something. You run in as AM and do some hits on enemy. You require stun on them or something else they will just run if they can't fight you.
    This is the current line of quotes in case you're confused.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Yes you are, because you catch a guy out of position with the stun. And that is only under the assumption that they have perfect sentry wards and you don't have any. If they don't, Alch is a perfect initiator. Haven't you seen Alchemist games with SB? They initiate plenty, no matter what skill level.
    You don't need perfect sentry wards if you're just barreling down midlane.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Please read again. A team that can push throne with a Vanguard AM should be able to hold their own 4v5 quite easily.
    I read. I disagreed.

  18. #10218
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    If you build Vanguard, you will get a RoH and Stout for lane harass. Tranquil + PMS is superior. You get Vanguard later to go fight, right? Regenration means nothing then so it becomes PMS + Tranq + Vitality Booster vs Vanguard. Vanguard doesn't do much more and can't be disassembled while you can just save your Vitality for later and still keep the benefit from it all the way there.
    PMS + Tranquil + Booster is 3 slots, Vanguard is one. When building for cheap items slots matter quite a bit. Tranquils also mean that you're not having Power Treads, and you can't really fight with Tranquils very well post-nerf.

  19. #10219
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    PMS + Tranquil + Booster is 3 slots, Vanguard is one.
    Vanguard + boots is 2.

  20. #10220
    Quote Originally Posted by masteryuri View Post
    What would be the best to go with then? serious question
    Dominator,BKB,Basher,AC, Manta.
    You really dont need farm items on carries who are pretty strong at lvl 6+.See Ursa,Spirit Breaker,OD,Void,Huskar.You usually buy farm items on weak early game carries like AM,Spectre,Lone Druid.
    In the non CM you can of course buy whatever you want on any hero,and its fine.But in proper CM noone will let you freefarm for 30 mins

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