1. #11981
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    I wish he was in CM/CD so I could play him more often.
    He is.

  2. #11982
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    No, I saw it, and I'm still not seeing how this makes CM a good pick unless you draft around her aura.

    What does she get from those fast levels? Well, faster aura points I guess. Her skills are terrible. Frostbite has horrible scaling, short cast range, and it's not even a stun. Crystal Nova does piss poor damage and has an enormous cooldown. Her ult is trash. Sure, she can jungle a bit and get those quick levels for faster aura points, but that's all the good she'll ever be.

    What happens when it's 20 minutes in and they're teamfighting? CM has, like, no contribution to teamfights at all. Because she doesn't do damage, her slow isn't very strong, and she doesn't even have a fucking stun.

    And it's not like she can run away from anyone. Even with Tranquil Boots, the fastest she will ever move is 370, and down to 340 if she's taken any damage or made an autoswing. Most carries have 310-330 base move speed, meaning with just brown boots they'll be faster than her, let alone Yasha Drums etc. And since she has no health and no armor, she's dead the second they catch up to her.

    No, CM is a shit tier hero and unless you draft around her aura, is not worth picking. Even if we agree she'll guarantee a won lane (which she doesn't, because she's so fucking easy to kill at all stages of the game), winning a lane doesn't mean winning the game, especially when having her on your team essentially makes the game 4v5 at 20 minutes.
    What is she going to do with the farm and levels? How about supporting her team? Buy the wards, smoke, sentries, dusts and let the secondary support get some items? You know that role that sacrifices own farm and items to give it to other heroes in his team? By casually jungling she also allows her secondary support to get his levels faster.

    Aura allows her to sustain. Watch the replay. ixmike88 very rarely runs back to the base to heal even after a fight where he goes oom and can keep applying pressure and not waste it on TPs. Tranquil and Aura allows her to run all around a map. Tell me how a Jakiro without boots is going to roam better than a CM with boots? How are you going to get your boots while upgrading chicken and buying sentries if needed as Jakiro? Take last hits from Arteezy's Alchemist? Leech experience and deny Lion his boots and fast level 6? "Just kill people"?

    As a mid player, a ganking CM is far more dangerous than a Jakiro. But I guess you're going to tell me I don't know how to mid now too.
    Last edited by mmoc9f3c8526e6; 2014-02-19 at 03:12 PM.

  3. #11983
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Wisp hasn't really changed much. Wisp hasn't really changed much. Wisp hasn't really changed much. Wisp hasn't really changed much.
    Stun changed to slow? Yeah, sure, not much.
    He was nerfed really hard, if he is still used it only means that tether stun wasn't his "main feature" to begin with.

    But anyway, CM has reliable slow>root combo. If you walk out of smoke and get detected on 1025 range. With 1100 range slow you will land it without being detected and while being slowed it is hard to not get rooted. Yes, you can escape root, but it means that you were successfully zoned out.

    Jakiros' dual breath is not reliable, because of its cast animation and "wave" style of projectile (its much easier to dodge). Less damage but 100% land chance and longer range compared to less range, easier to dodge more damage is apples and oranges to me. Sometimes this extra damage can win you a game, sometimes reliability of AoE slow.

    Well, frostbite stops you from attacking, as long as your Gyro has no BKB he won't get much out of his flack cannon. IMO, that's enough utility for CM to be great pick, even with her being slow and fragile. She was nerved too, i wonder why?

    Again, ability to stop you from attacking (frostbite) and run around is very strong both early and late game.

    Don't get me wrong, i don't think that Jakiro is better than CM or vice versa, they are just different, CM is much better at ganks and can't really do anything to push creep wave because of her CD in Nova. While Jakiro is great for pushing, sieging, destroying towers, but he is not that threating at ganks.
    Last edited by Charge me Doctor; 2014-02-19 at 03:33 PM.

  4. #11984
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    You make it sound as if people haven't ever ran dual mid or dual off lane. It all shows the same weakness every time people run it. One of them gets underleveled and the one they lane against still get some experience and it restricts your movement when you don't have a jungle to get off the map with.
    You still seem to assume they play these lanes properly just because they are pros.

    Also, the great thing about strength carries is that they can largely ignore harass. After base armor and stout shield Phoenix hits LC for a nice, solid, 15 damage a shot, LC can just completely ignore that and CS. Also, since a melee hero obviously isn't going to deny a ranged hero experience in a 1v1 situation, the carry is free to push the lane as hard as possible and doesn't really have to worry about lane position. Watch minimap so you don't eat a gank and game is easy. You make it sound like people haven't been doing this kind of thing for literally ten years in DotA, the game has been around a hell of a lot longer than the current fotm meta. Soon enough someone will come along with a new tiny/wisp groundbreaking strat and everyone will rave about how innovative, creative, and genius it is when people like me have been doing it in pubs for months if not years prior to the pros "inventing" it.

    Whether or not you agree with pizza about a lot of stuff, he is extremely right about one thing especially - the pro scene is INCREDIBLY SLOW to adapt. Icefrog definitely does push changes that he knows aren't necessary for balance, simply to try to force people to pick new heroes. It keeps the gameplay fresh and exciting for viewers and makes the community better. If the game was left in a perfectly balanced state, the esports scene would pick the same 20 heroes every single game for years on end and would never change whatsoever. That's why they have to be forced. And it should be a huge indication that they are not even close to infallible, nor are they the end all for meta strategy. As far as people trying underplayed strats like dual mid goes, lately, it's usually more of a case of the players screwing up the strat because they never, ever practice it than it is the strat actually being weak. Imagine if you played 200 games a week and you were in a defensive trilane literally every single one of those games, do you think you would be able to transition to an aggressive dual mid on the fly? Let's not even forget the fact that you can count the number of actually great players in the esports scene on your fingers, the rest of them only being good at a handful of heroes or only one position (if even that).

    @Doctor
    A stun changing to a 100% slow is not as massive a nerf as you seem to think. It's still pretty much a stun, blink heroes can just safely ignore it now (i.e. no more blinking into tether as an initiator like magnus/tide and getting instantly countered by a passive ability).

    Also, dual breath is reliable. If you click on enemy hero they can't dodge it unless they're at like 500+ movespeed. But, if we're going to say extreme situations make spells unreliable then magic missile and storm bolt are unreliable because you can manta out of them. As far as ice path vs frostbite...ice path isn't reliable but it is still a hell of a lot better than frostbite will ever be. Literally the only thing CM has going for her is the ability to eat creeps, she loses in every single other way imagineable. Her ult being trash that is barely worth skilling for the aoe slow is the first thing that needs to change.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2014-02-19 at 05:24 PM.

  5. #11985
    Bloodsail Admiral Omertocracy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    CM Hate.




    But... But... She's a fuckin' princess! (4:55)

  6. #11986
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    No, CM is a shit tier hero and unless you draft around her aura, is not worth picking.
    how do you call it shit tier if she has >53% win in pub this patch (>2.6 million games) and 48.9% win in competitive this patch (66-69, most picked hero)

    no really whats the criteria for "shit tier" enlighten me

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Also, the great thing about strength carries is that they can largely ignore harass. After base armor and stout shield Phoenix hits LC for a nice, solid, 15 damage a shot, LC can just completely ignore that and CS.
    nah

    if (at level 1) lc has stout+2 branch and phoenix has 4 branch (which is the build i have seen the most), phoenix hits avg 26 when stout shield procs and avg 46 when it doesn't (avg 34 dmg)

    lc has 682 hp with 2 branches

    fire spirits are also dumb as hell (cant even kill creeps)

  7. #11987
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    text
    No, I just use logic. Two heroes standing on lane gets less experience than one hero standing on lane and they practice tri lane plenty and still the weakness shows: Experience starvation.

    People doing things in pubs have no significance. Every thing work in pubs as long as you are better. I've been running Invoker vs OD for ages now and I can keep even CS against OD most of the time and sometimes zone him out. Doesn't mean it works against pros. Pro games are completely different from public games. What works in public games can simply just work because opponents aren't good enough while pro games are the highest level of play. UD is another example of this. He can work against public players because they don't have the coordination or knowledge to handle it. You just don't fight the hero and proceed to watch how he falls off late game even with farm. Same with Clinkz and how he works very well in public games cause he can roam all map. It just gets incredibly much harder once you face actual support players that can play. They rarely get caught out, always have sentries down in key places and carry dust all game and have teammates behind them.

    One thing I want to note is that just because a person is creative and plays different from the pros in public games doesn't automatically make them right. And using the argument that pros are slow to adapt doesn't automatically make them wrong in their picks or strats. Unless it can be proven at high level of professional play no strategy has significance but it's just theorycraft and just work in public games.

    I remember thinking QoP beat TA without sentries because I never lost to it but then I faced an actual good mid player that played TA and it was way more difficult.
    Last edited by mmoc9f3c8526e6; 2014-02-19 at 08:31 PM.

  8. #11988
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Stun changed to slow? Yeah, sure, not much.
    He was nerfed really hard, if he is still used it only means that tether stun wasn't his "main feature" to begin with.
    His ability to teleport people around was always his main feature. CK, Tiny, any other combo - you picked them because you teleport on top of someone and they're instantly dead because they were alone and suddenly it's a 2v1 out of nowhere. Changing Tether from a stun to what's basically a root doesn't really make it any less successful, though I guess it means a hero with a Blink might be able to zip away before Avalanche or Chaos Bolt lands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    how do you call it shit tier if she has >53% win in pub this patch (>2.6 million games) and 48.9% win in competitive this patch (66-69, most picked hero)

    no really whats the criteria for "shit tier" enlighten me
    A hero that's shitty. You'd think that'd be self-explanatory.

    Winrates don't mean anything. Viper is probably the most overpowered hero and the game and should logically result in a guaranteed win if you don't fuck up while playing him, yet has a relatively even winrate across the board. Doesn't mean he isn't overpowered, just means people suck at playing the simplest hero in the entire game.

    It's not like the pros are especially good. Fucking watch game 3 of that XMG shit from yesterday. Era's on Fnatic, he's a pro player on a pro team, and I haven't seen a Juggernaut played that poorly in a very fucking long time... and I play at 3700 MMR. Check the earlier games when Loda had Riki and played him like complete shit. People get Jakiro and can't land an Ice Path to save their fucking lives, you see weird skill builds and bad plays all the time.

    The pros are good at a small subset of heroes determined by trends in the meta. The heroes that they're playing aren't determined by good or bad, they're determined by what's trending at the given time.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  9. #11989
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    A hero that's shitty. You'd think that'd be self-explanatory.

    Winrates don't mean anything. Viper is probably the most overpowered hero and the game and should logically result in a guaranteed win if you don't fuck up while playing him, yet has a relatively even winrate across the board. Doesn't mean he isn't overpowered, just means people suck at playing the simplest hero in the entire game.
    so viper has an even winrate because people suck at playing him

    and cm has a positive winrate because the heroes shitty

    im not sure im following

  10. #11990
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Winrates don't mean anything. Viper is probably the most overpowered hero and the game and should logically result in a guaranteed win if you don't fuck up while playing him, yet has a relatively even winrate across the board. Doesn't mean he isn't overpowered, just means people suck at playing the simplest hero in the entire game.

    It's not like the pros are especially good. Fucking watch game 3 of that XMG shit from yesterday. Era's on Fnatic, he's a pro player on a pro team, and I haven't seen a Juggernaut played that poorly in a very fucking long time... and I play at 3700 MMR. Check the earlier games when Loda had Riki and played him like complete shit. People get Jakiro and can't land an Ice Path to save their fucking lives, you see weird skill builds and bad plays all the time.

    The pros are good at a small subset of heroes determined by trends in the meta. The heroes that they're playing aren't determined by good or bad, they're determined by what's trending at the given time.
    Just because you say Viper is OP doesn't mean he is. How can you even draw such a conclusion when you haven't even played the hero against actual good players. I'm assuming you think Viper is a strong laner to start with? I'd gladly show you how I'll destroy your Viper with SF, which Viper is a counter to.

    There are plenty of people on TWitch who watch pro streams and then call the players in the pro's game bad just because they make mistakes when if they were put in the same situation they'd fail even harder. It's the same people who call their mid bad when I crush them thinking they are better when I would crush them just as hard.

  11. #11991
    Whenever I see trilane and dont play support myself, the game is usually complete shit. Why? BEcouse people have no fucking clue how to play trilane, how to zone out opponent, how to dive to zone out and get them out of regen before they hit level 3-4 or how to keep lane equilibrium or even protect carry (not to mention those carries that have 10 CS by 10min on TRILANE with outzoned opponent).

    Trilane in pubs, gosh I wish it was non existant unless I actually play as support but than guess fucking what, 2nd support is usually complet utter shit clueless and sometimes you need that trilane to outzone, couse solo or duo is not enough depending on picks.

  12. #11992
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    No, I just use logic.
    And yet, your entire opinion is "none of this is even worth discussing because compared to pros we are all godawful players and nothing we do matters or is relevant to the metagame at all." You do remember that AdmiralBulldog was a pub trash player like us only months ago? Do you really think high level pubs are that far away from pro games? Only a couple of teams in world are on an actual other level from public 5 stacks, the rest of them get so trampled in tournaments that it's hard to believe someone is actually dumb enough to pay them to play.

    And, the nice thing about imagining these situations is that it doesn't matter who the enemy is. Some matchups are just guaranteed to win, that's the entire point of thinking about this. You can't outplay everyone no matter what the situation is, that's the point of drafting. What you're basically telling me is, if I assert that Timbersaw beats CM 1v1 in lane, it doesn't matter what I think because I don't play against pros so I have no way of actually knowing. But, if that's your opinion, why even talk about this?

    @longview
    Fire spirits suck but they are manageable for a hero with a spammable heal and cleanse.

  13. #11993
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    UD is another example of this. He can work against public players because they don't have the coordination or knowledge to handle it. You just don't fight the hero and proceed to watch how he falls off late game even with farm.
    This all sounds kind of nice on paper but then I remember that UD has periodically been a fairly picked hero and still sports ~50% winrate in competitive. Besides hero is more than just Tombstone, damage amp and slow aura of Flesh Golem doesn't really fall off.

    After following the scene for years I pretty much concluded that many of the pro trends are born fairly arbitrarily and remain strong due to the habit of teams to heavily copy each other - the metagame, if you will.

  14. #11994
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    And yet, your entire opinion is "none of this is even worth discussing because compared to pros we are all godawful players and nothing we do matters or is relevant to the metagame at all." You do remember that AdmiralBulldog was a pub trash player like us only months ago? Do you really think high level pubs are that far away from pro games? Only a couple of teams in world are on an actual other level from public 5 stacks, the rest of them get so trampled in tournaments that it's hard to believe someone is actually dumb enough to pay them to play.

    And, the nice thing about imagining these situations is that it doesn't matter who the enemy is. Some matchups are just guaranteed to win, that's the entire point of thinking about this. You can't outplay everyone no matter what the situation is, that's the point of drafting. What you're basically telling me is, if I assert that Timbersaw beats CM 1v1 in lane, it doesn't matter what I think because I don't play against pros so I have no way of actually knowing. But, if that's your opinion, why even talk about this?
    No, I just want people to think about what they're really suggesting and actually try it against real players before saying something is strong or stating it as fact. I could sit and say QoP beats TA all day because I win with it in public games and that's where my opinion is formed but unless you see a real good TA, you can't state it as true because you haven't tried it at the highest level of play. If you have tried it at highest level of play and made an opinion, no one can argue can they unless they can beat you?

    AdmiralBulldog is a very perfect example of what I've been saying. He played top tier public games, against pros and he kept up with them. That alone tells me he can play the game and with some practice in pro environment he managed to rise. He didn't just magically join a team and performed from the start.

    No matchup is a guaranteed win. If you played solo mid enough you'd know that. Like one or two years ago I started thinking about my mid play and I knew I usually won my lane like 90% of the time but those 10% I wasn't happy with. I used to either blame it on matchup but sometimes I actually did lose my lane against better player but I thought about it and decided to just get better. Suddenly, those ODs that I before just gave up against became manageable and I sometimes even killed them. Those TAs became a joke.

    When you watched Arteezy play MLG and being able to beat ODs as TA or beat Razors as OD you realize how little you know and make you to rethink what you know about matchups. These are some of the finest mids he beat such as iceiceice and Mushi. When you see QoPs not going Shadow Strike against Pucks and you see Pucks not taking Phase Shift at level one it really makes you rethink matchups. When you see Arteezy Puck completely destroy a TA and then proceed to watch Arteezy TA completely destroy a Dendi Puck you start to understand that just taking your personal experience doesn't always cut it. I have first hand experience of this. My friends always keep saying "this hero beats this" after they have played some pubs but then I say no and I'm willing to show them and they get crushed. They then change opinion because I did something different and then I say swap heroes and they still lose. What are they to think?

    What I am saying is, just because you assert that QoP should beat TA and you pick it and you win it doesn't mean it's automatically true. If another player who maybe have a different opinion says that TA beats the QoP if the TA knows how to play, how do you respond to that when you're absolutely confident in your assertion? You have to either play it out or try your matchup against a player you know is good and not a random public player. Theorycrafting is fine but you have to try it in my opinion and try it against real try hards.

  15. #11995
    I'm not asserting QoP beats TA, though. And keeping up with pros doesn't matter, the community will always have an excuse. They weren't taking him seriously, they were practicing some weird strat, they had a stand in on their team, whatever. Until you actually have that Alliance tag next to your name people will just say you're trash player because that's how the DotA community is. Which brings me back to my point of this not even being worth discussing if that's how you really feel. Why even consider the meta game if your opinion is to just sit back and let the DotA gods spoon feed it to you because garbage tier players like us will simply never know what its like to play in real games against real players?

    I can't say I've ever struggled to have godlike streaks against prostacks when I've played them. There is nothing special about a single one of them as a person, losing to their team is just inevitable because they play together on such a different level from pub teams. But that really is the difference, the teamwork is what separates the good and the bad, not the 1v1 ability.

  16. #11996
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I can't say I've ever struggled to have godlike streaks against prostacks when I've played them.
    Go godlike universe. That guy rapes me every time I see him.

  17. #11997
    Quote Originally Posted by LiiLoSNK View Post
    Go godlike universe. That guy rapes me every time I see him.
    I have yet to be impressed by anyone I've ever seen in DotA. What is amazing is their ability to come back from a 2-18 disadvantage and for all 5 of their heroes to find farm even without map control. Most regular public players get demoralized and give up and definitely don't know how to stack and jungle and turtle to win late game. It's pretty hard to make magic happen with a team with no coordination, that's the difference. Time to push and someone teleports to another lane and ignores team. Enemy going to Rosh? Have 2 people top and 1 bot and 1 still at fountain so they get it for free.

  18. #11998
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I'm not asserting QoP beats TA, though. And keeping up with pros doesn't matter, the community will always have an excuse. They weren't taking him seriously, they were practicing some weird strat, they had a stand in on their team, whatever. Until you actually have that Alliance tag next to your name people will just say you're trash player because that's how the DotA community is. Which brings me back to my point of this not even being worth discussing if that's how you really feel. Why even consider the meta game if your opinion is to just sit back and let the DotA gods spoon feed it to you because garbage tier players like us will simply never know what its like to play in real games against real players?

    I can't say I've ever struggled to have godlike streaks against prostacks when I've played them. There is nothing special about a single one of them as a person, losing to their team is just inevitable because they play together on such a different level from pub teams. But that really is the difference, the teamwork is what separates the good and the bad, not the 1v1 ability.
    I watch how pros play and I play what I like in public games. I'm not sitting waiting for pros to tell me what to play but I also don't sit and tell people that pros are doing it wrong and that they just don't know how to play the game because of this amazing strat I've found that I stomp people with in public games is so much superior to what they play. Anyone can sit and do that.

    My issue here isn't that people on these fourms are suggesting new strats or saying some hero is strong. My issue is that the only argument I see for why they're right is because it works in pubs and that the pros are just doing it wrong. There is no substantial argument or even an example that seems remotely close to the level of play you see in professional games. If you're going to challenge the meta and come up with new ideas, the burden of proof lies on you and public game example just doesn't cut it for me personally because I've seen first hand how different it can be depending on who you face.

    Are you seriously telling me if PizzaSHARK linked a game where he stomped with Viper at his MMR that you would consider it a good example of the hero's strength and OPness and make you change your opinion about Viper? I think you'd say it's because his opponents were horrible or didn't know how to handle the Viper or something along those lines.

    If I linked you a game where I beat a TA as QoP and told everyone that QoP shits on TA what would you say to me? I think you'd say the exact same thing I have been saying to everyone here in the last few pages.

    Not all pro players are special players but many are way better than the average top public player and it shows in their MMR too. They win and it's not a coincidence. You can't take a pub performance of a pro for anything because pubs for them is not the same as it is for most people that only play public games. A top level pub for a pro in a tier 1 team would be like maybe a 4k MMR game for me. You can't take it all too seriously.

    Just look at what MMR Arteezy started at. He started at 5.2k which wasn't very high at all. He started to care when ranked came and suddenly he was 6k. Same with EE. They win and they always carry their team, that is what makes them rise in rating but I also think they tried way less before ranked came. It's not just their teamwork. It's their overall decision making and understanding of the game.

    Yes, some pros aren't much better than top pub players but quite a few are. Saying there is not a single one that is special is just false. I laned against Funn1k and he is very much stronger than the average top public player. His last hitting was just super solid and his 1v1 skills very strong. Qojqva was the same thing. This guy didn't let you get one free last hit. The difference was actually massive compared to what I usually face.

    This guy is perfect example of the same arguments that I see on these forums all the time: http://nadota.com/showthread.php?240...Mid-or-Support. He is so convinced that Meepo beats OD mid and how strong mid Meepo is and he is of course very convinced. Surprise, surprise to see him get 0 CS against RTZ's OD on his stream and dying at level 5 with maybe 1 or 2 CS while the OD free farmed.
    Last edited by mmoc9f3c8526e6; 2014-02-20 at 02:00 AM.

  19. #11999
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    If you're going to challenge the meta and come up with new ideas, the burden of proof lies on you and public game example just doesn't cut it for me personally because I've seen first hand how different it can be depending on who you face.
    That's the core of the issue. The way the community sees it the only way you can challenge the general opinion is by going against the pros and the only way to do that is to be one of them.

    The reality is for me that, after a lot of watching competitive games, obsessing over stats at dota-academy, and following drafting trends I came to the conclusion that many of the pro trends are born fairly arbitrarily. In fact I think Puppey could just go ahead now and decide to start picking obscure hero X and take 30 seconds to come up with a strat and then have Na´Vi win a few games with it and there you have a new meta or whatever kids call it these days.

    Although I never believed that pro picking trends were any better indicator of hero balance or "viability" than pub win rates, so in my mind it isn't that pubs are wrong and pros are right (or vice versa), it's that they're usually either both right or (more likely) both wrong. If community of pubs can't be right because they're not coordinated enough and pros can't be right because the scene is too unstable then all there is left is speculating on forums, which seems fine to me.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2014-02-20 at 02:08 AM.

  20. #12000
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    That's the core of the issue. The way the community sees it the only way you can challenge the general opinion is by going against the pros and the only way to do that is to be one of them.

    The reality is for me that, after a lot of watching competitive games, obsessing over stats at dota-academy, and following drafting trends I came to the conclusion that many of the pro trends are born fairly arbitrarily. In fact I think Puppey could just go ahead now and decide to start picking obscure hero X and take 30 seconds to come up with a strat and then have Na´Vi win a few games with it and there you have a new meta or whatever kids call it these days.

    Although I never believed that pro picking trends were any better indicator of hero balance or "viability" than pub win rates, so in my mind it isn't that pubs are wrong and pros are right (or vice versa), it's that they're usually either both right or (more likely) both wrong. If community of pubs can't be right because they're not coordinated enough and pros can't be right because the scene is too unstable then all there is left is speculating on forums, which seems fine to me.
    Yes, it's exactly that. A public player could very well be right about something but I don't see how he can argue for it working in a professional game based on the sole fact that it works in public games. If you have some proper example or solid arguemnts I can see it or I can at least discuss it but I rarely see that. Puppey could very well introduce a new hero but no one will follow him unless it's proven to work. No one will copy Puppey if he uses some weird ass strat against a bad team and you know the reason why. And speculating is all we can do but I just don't agree with the way people argue for their opinions here. It's just blanket statements. Example from the thread I linked earlier:

    I will gladly put it to the test... you kids are all delusional if you dont think this hero rapes the fuck out of an OD mid everything that OD does to win mid has 0 effect on meepo.. Right click dmg? Move the hurt meepo back and get ready too poof in for probably the kill after he over commits. Stolen int so you cant cast anything? just even it out between the meepos so that you can still poof and net with either one of them. What else does OD do inlane to win it? Oh right literally nothing... The hero is only good because he usually has an immense advantage in right click dmg and the other person has no mana to cast anything.. i mean you have 2 heroes...
    Not even a matter of whose better aslong as you arnt complete fucking ass at meepo
    When I read these quotes I recognize so much from what I've read here on MMO. Just statements and confidence. "No matter what you do you can't win the lane" How do you argue against this? It's much easier to just show it or try it. Like Arteezy did and everything that guy said in those quotes just effectively became false.

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