[Megathread] DotA 2

[Deleted]

Pros already made Leoric worked in competitive, it was just long enough ago that most of the dota2 kiddies weren't around to see it and so they argue with me on forums that it can't be done.

However, we are talking about the game as it is right now. To be honest, I didn't really follow the pro scene in WC3 dota, when was it? When naix had 3 passives and avatar? When razor had chain lightning, frenzy and passive ulti that struck random enemies around you once in a while? When invoker had 27 invokable spells total? The game changes, not only metagame, but the heroes, items, map as well. Leoric will probably be useful again in time, he's getting buffed quite a lot, still it's not nearly enough - reasons on earlier pages.

[Jester Joe]

Alright, unless I"m confused, the flow of this conversation was
CM is terrible, only picked because of pros->CM isn't terrible, she's pretty useful, also pros know what they're doing->Pros don't know anymore than pub players-> Wraith Kings god tier but not used->Lifestealer is better-> a whole debate about Wraith King compared to Lifestealer?

My head hurts.
All I know is I had someone playing Wraith King the other night in a pub that went battle fury at like the 30 minute mark, two hyperstones and crits...and our Tinker already disconnected after dying like 4-5 times to Viper.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/529632714
Although I'm really questioning what that Nature's Prophet was doing...letting us win I guess.

Also a question for a debate that my friend and I have been having.
On Axe, what boots would you all buy?
I personally vote towards Tranquils, because I like being able to harass hard quickly, and then back up and let the boots basically heal me up completely with Axe's already high hp regen and the boots bonus regen.
He says he'd rather get Phase because Axe can only really right click outside of helix.
We both agree though that Axe could really use any boots except Mana, because he's not really too heavy on mana useage.

[LiiLoSNK]

But why aren't they using it right now?

By her logic, warrior/paladin is still the top tier arena team because it worked well before better comps were discovered.

It's like me saying riki is top tier right now because he had death ward at one point in time. Based logic for based heroes.

[Lysah]

However, we are talking about the game as it is right now. To be honest, I didn't really follow the pro scene in WC3 dota, when was it? When naix had 3 passives and avatar? When razor had chain lightning, frenzy and passive ulti that struck random enemies around you once in a while? When invoker had 27 invokable spells total? The game changes, not only metagame, but the heroes, items, map as well.

Competitive has obviously been around for a long time. However, Leoric has only been BUFFED since he was picked religiously and none of his counters have been buffed to compensate. He is at a stronger point in the game right now than he was when he was a top pick. The only meaningful "nerf" to Leoric has been the buff to nec3's mana burn, but I still highly doubt it can be considered a true counter to the hero considering he can farm a BKB far faster than a support can farm a nec3.

By her logic, warrior/paladin is still the top tier arena team because it worked well before better comps were discovered.

It's like me saying riki is top tier right now because he had death ward at one point in time. Based logic for based heroes.

You are literally the embodiment of the part of the community that everybody hates. But I'll repeat in case you didn't read the first half of this post - nothing has changed about this hero since he was heavily picked except his ult being even better.

[LiiLoSNK]

You are literally the embodiment of the part of the community that everybody hates. But I'll repeat in case you didn't read the first half of this post - nothing has changed about this hero since he was heavily picked except his ult being even better.

I repeat "it worked well before better comps were discovered." Your logic is still ridiculously flawed and even the "dota kiddies" can see this. When SK starts working again, I'll think about respecting your opinion. Until then, you're wrong.

[Hermanni]

I repeat "it worked well before better comps were discovered." Your logic is still ridiculously flawed and even the "dota kiddies" can see this. When SK starts working again, I'll think about respecting your opinion. Until then, you're wrong.

Matter of perspective, I'm pretty sure I'm not alone among some older poster in this thread in thinking it's you who is wrong, but you just don't know it yet. It's 617 pages and I don't think Lysah has been wrong about something like this yet.

I'd say you might need a change of perspective if you think "better comps were discovered", it seems like you think 'metagame' progress in dota is linear rather than cyclical, if balance changes aren't taken into consideration.

[Scummer]

If I'm not mistaken the current meta includes a crap ton of disables, if anything Leoric would be in his prime at soaking them.

[Clrg]

Its going to rain, maybe today or tomorrow, maybe next month or next year < thats the logic she is using, Ariadne pointed leoric problems in #12287, thats how you present an argument, no with subjective and biased opinions.

[LiiLoSNK]

Matter of perspective, I'm pretty sure I'm not alone among some older poster in this thread in thinking it's you who is wrong, but you just don't know it yet. It's 617 pages and I don't think Lysah has been wrong about something like this yet.

I'd say you might need a change of perspective if you think "better comps were discovered", it seems like you think 'metagame' progress in dota is linear rather than cyclical, if balance changes aren't taken into consideration.

Arguments work better if you site when and where I was wrong, so I can then tell you why I think I'm right.

I could literally say every hero is top tier because eventually they might be. I don't see how saying "durr well SK used to get played a lot" means anything here because he's not played now. Metagame is only cyclical when heroes are changed/balanced so they can be revisited. No one wants to revisit a stupid basic character like SK (right now) because he's STILL a 1 spell hero with nothing to learn from and who's already been proven to be useless in most stages of the game (outside based pub matches).

[Feindy]

I think all the SK fight is stupid. Everyone knows SK isnt bad, but there are better heroes that can fill his role, so why would you pick him? Unless you really like him, you will always want something like Naix, who is better in early/mid game. SK needs probably 5-6 items to finally beat him, but no games take that long and you will pick different heroes, like Void or AM if you want to play late game. Simply put, SK is ok hero, but there are so many heroes id Dota, you will always find one that fits your game plan better (unless you want to cheese with something like SK/Ursa).

[Lysah]

I think all the SK fight is stupid. Everyone knows SK isnt bad, but there are better heroes that can fill his role, so why would you pick him? Unless you really like him, you will always want something like Naix, who is better in early/mid game. SK needs probably 5-6 items to finally beat him, but no games take that long and you will pick different heroes, like Void or AM if you want to play late game. Simply put, SK is ok hero, but there are so many heroes id Dota, you will always find one that fits your game plan better (unless you want to cheese with something like SK/Ursa).

How does N'aix fill Leoric's role? Because they're both carrys heroes? N'aix does not go into battle first, Leoric does, they fill entirely different roles for their teams and are not actually comparable in any way other than their raw stats - Leoric is beefier, N'aix is a bit faster. Both have a CC, both have lifesteal. N'aix has attack speed, Leoric has crits. Their ultimates completely redefine how they should be played for a team and the biggest hangup of this thread is that people think that all carrys are identical when this is failing at understanding the fundamental first step in Leoric usage.

Until people realize that these two heroes do not fill the same role on the team there is no chance of progression, here.

Edit:
As for the whole cyclical picks idea, Luna was god tier in DotA1, and still is, and was popular the same time Leoric was. Considering she has also barely changed at all, with only a few minor buffs and nerfs since her glory days, it's amazing anyone picked her back up again since she is a one spell hero with nothing to learn from.

[Hermanni]

Arguments work better if you site when and where I was wrong, so I can then tell you why I think I'm right.

I could literally say every hero is top tier because eventually they might be. I don't see how saying "durr well SK used to get played a lot" means anything here because he's not played now. Metagame is only cyclical when heroes are changed/balanced so they can be revisited. No one wants to revisit a stupid basic character like SK because he's STILL a 1 spell hero with nothing to learn from and who's already been proven to be useless in most stages of the game (outside based pub matches).

I haven't really seen any proof for or against SK. I don't think balance changes often drastically affect hero viability, but I do think ~95% of the current hero pool is competitively very viable. The thing new maps actually achieve is forcing the players to re-think their strategies because other teams might also be doing that.

I've seen heroes rise from 'obscurity' to top picks for no clearly observable reason as well as suddenly fall out of favor dozens of times, usually people just mumble something indistinct about "meta" when asked why that is happening. SK could be tier 1 hero in a few weeks from now, it could be that in TI4 and if not maybe TI5. Maybe 6.81 patch notes say "Wraith King: Base damage increased by 2." and people will say it's because mad buffs in patch so everyone rushed to pick him.

[LiiLoSNK]

How does N'aix fill Leoric's role? Because they're both carrys heroes? N'aix does not go into battle first, Leoric does, they fill entirely different roles for their teams and are not actually comparable in any way other than their raw stats - Leoric is beefier, N'aix is a bit faster. Both have a CC, both have lifesteal. N'aix has attack speed, Leoric has crits. Their ultimates completely redefine how they should be played for a team and the biggest hangup of this thread is that people think that all carrys are identical when this is failing at understanding the fundamental first step in Leoric usage.

Until people realize that these two heroes do not fill the same role on the team there is no chance of progression, here.

Leoric goes into battle first lol. At what mmr does this actually work? He's slow and has zero mobility.

[Lysah]

Leoric goes into battle first lol. At what mmr does this actually work? He's slow and has zero mobility.

You're right, and no kills ever happen in DotA without someone buying a blink dagger, every game stays 0-0 until the blinks and force staffs show up.

I've already explained this to you, actually, so I'm not going to bother again.

[LiiLoSNK]

I haven't really seen any proof for or against SK. I don't think balance changes often drastically affect hero viability, but I do think ~95% of the current hero pool is competitively very viable. The thing new maps actually achieve is forcing the players to re-think their strategies because other teams might also be doing that.

I've seen heroes rise from 'obscurity' to top picks for no clearly observable reason as well as suddenly fall out of favor dozens of times, usually people just mumble something indistinct about "meta" when asked why that is happening. SK could be tier 1 hero in a few weeks from now, it could be that in TI4 and if not maybe TI5. Maybe 6.81 patch notes say "Wraith King: Base damage increased by 2." and people will say it's because mad buffs in patch so everyone rushed to pick him.

There's actually been lots of proof against SK describing how easy he is to counter. Namely mana burn, incredibly poor farm, and lack of team fight potential until late game. But of course, you guys don't want to address counter arguments to that. Your guys' arguments rest purely on what could happen instead of what is happening.

- - - Updated - - -

You're right, and no kills ever happen in DotA without someone buying a blink dagger, every game stays 0-0 until the blinks and force staffs show up.

I've already explained this to you, actually, so I'm not going to bother again.

Cause SK is such a great team fighter early game with his 1 stun, no damage, and a massive 260 second cooldown ult that will make him near useless if the other team tries to fight or push again within the next 5 minutes. But yea I guess anything goes in pubs

[Lysah]

There's actually been lots of proof against SK describing how easy he is to counter. Namely mana burn, incredibly poor farm, and lack of team fight potential until late game. But of course, you guys don't want to address counter arguments to that. Your guys' arguments rest purely on what could happen instead of what is happening.

Of course we addressed that, you just ignored it or pretended it wasn't relevant. You live in a fantasy world where Leoric will never have a BKB, where you can burn 1200 mana in half a second and guarantee he has 0 when he dies even if he has a soul ring, and where you will always be able to draft high mana burn heroes and spend pots of gold on nec3s to counter one hero on the enemy team because the other 4 don't matter anymore. You dream up perfect situations for the enemy team and the worst possible situations for Leoric and say it's proof he sucks in every situation.

Leoric ONLY has a stun, and "no damage," you really have to be trolling. I forgot stuns were bad, and that N'aix has six of them compared to Leoric's crappy 1, and that N'aix definitely out-DPSes Leoric once his rage is gone, and that N'aix can keep fighting when he's at 100 health because he's superman unbeatable with a 44% winrate in competitive right now.

Leoric isn't used at all right now, so you actually have no reason to think he is a bad hero outside of "pros don't use him and I'm a sheep." There is no evidence against him, 3 games is not a sample size.

Ask yourself why the mortal strike change was reversed in a very short timeframe. Icefrog realized very quickly that a major buff to this hero severely breaks his balance, which is why he's back to very minor buffs to his ultimate slow.

[LiiLoSNK]

Of course we addressed that, you just ignored it or pretended it wasn't relevant. You live in a fantasy world where Leoric will never have a BKB, where you can b urn 1200 mana in half a second and guarantee he has 0 when he dies even if he has a soul ring, and where you will always be able to draft high mana burn heroes and spend pots of gold on nec3s to counter one hero on the enemy team because the other 4 don't matter anymore. You dream up perfect situations for the enemy team and the worst possible situations for Leoric and say it's proof he sucks in every situation.

Leoric ONLY has a stun, and "no damage," you really have to be trolling. I forgot stuns were bad, and that N'aix has six of them compared to Leoric's crappy 1, and that N'aix definitely out-DPSes Leoric once his rage is gone, and that N'aix can keep fighting when he's at 100 health because he's superman unbeatable with a 44% winrate in competitive right now.

Dream up perfect situations? I've seen almost every current tournament match where SK was actually drafted, and each one involved the other team building a Necro. Are they not gonna be able to farm up because of SK's MASSIVE early game pressure? It's standard play to expect at high level play and you don't realize this.

You think SK has more damage early game than a naix when SK not only loses at farm, but is required to spend gold on a survival item? That's hilarious. Again, you will get more use out of a rage/slow/infest than 1 single target stun during a team fight any day of the week. See you again in 5 minutes because of course my team is going to wait for leorics godlike ult to be up.

[Lysah]

Dream up perfect situations? I've seen almost every current tournament match where SK was actually drafted, and each one involved the other team building a Necro.

Yeah, because that was so many games, hahaha. Literally hundreds of games where someone drafted Leoric and in all of them enemy got a necro.

You sure got me, buddy. Boy I was wrong, so much evidence.


8 games in the last 2 content patches and he won almost as many of them as N'aix does.

[LiiLoSNK]

Yeah, because that was so many games, hahaha. Literally hundreds of games where someone drafted Leoric and in all of them enemy got a necro.

You sure got me, buddy. Boy I was wrong, so much evidence.


8 games in the last 2 content patches and he won almost as many of them as N'aix does.

Apparently expecting people to build items in relation to the other team's heroes is out of your element. Based SK top initiating king of the pubs.

[Lysah]

Apparently expecting people to build items in relation to the other team's heroes is out of your element. Based SK top initiating king of the pubs.

Yell at other person's argument for not having any data and just being opinions.

Post your own opinions and push them as fact.

Ignore other person's data refuting your outrageous claims and keep pretending you are the intelligent one of the two.

I think we're done here. Maybe when Leoric actually has a lower winrate than N'aix or N'aix stops losing 60% of his games I will listen to anything you say, until then you just keep humping the N'aix bandwagon, I'm sure it will serve you well 40% of the time.