[Megathread] DotA 2

[Deleted]

If you keep pushing lanes you get wrecked by enemy team, that's it. If you don't get ganked while playing like this, you could win even by building Techies into AA damage dealer. Games like this just doesn't exist even at my shitty mmr

That's just flat-out untrue. There are plenty of opportunities in any game to take towers uncontested - after reaction TPs, while they're 5-man pushing, etc. And again, all she needs is Agh's and a Maelstrom and she has absolutely stupid damage output for her farm. Skadi and shit is great, but all you genuinely need is Agh's, Maelstrom and a BKB - there are plenty of other carries that need comparable amounts of farm to be viable and do less with it.

Edit: WR doesn't farm fast? A hero with an AoE wave clear can't farm fast? At least she doesn't absolutely need a Midas to be a viable core like Silencer or OD do. That's exactly her niche - she can farm up Agh's, Maelstrom and BKB pre-25 from the safelane if your supports actually have brains and stack jungle camps - I actually think she can do it without stacked camps, but stacked camps just makes it easier.

More edit: About the whole "oh Tide can just walk up to her lol" point: If you are safelane, and your supports are so AFK Tide isn't being zoned out the least bit so he can just walk up and Smash you, you have lost the fucking game already. It doesn't matter what hero you pick in a game like that because the scenario is already a horrible one.

[Charge me Doctor]

This applies to every hero.

Well, i play mainly supports and from WD, Lina, Lion, perspective, all i need is to land 2 spells (one sometimes) on him to kill or gravely damage.
Also, Niiix, nix nix nix nix.

[PizzaSHARK]

Edit: WR doesn't farm fast? A hero with an AoE wave clear can't farm fast? At least she doesn't absolutely need a Midas to be a viable core like Silencer or OD do. That's exactly her niche - she can farm up Agh's, Maelstrom and BKB pre-25 from the safelane if your supports actually have brains and stack jungle camps - I actually think she can do it without stacked camps, but stacked camps just makes it easier.

Powershot is garbage for wave clearing. Tiny AOE and loses damage for each target it hits beyond the first. OD and Silencer can easily get quick Midas by virtue of completely dominating their lanes, since they tend to do that. WR tends to get zoned out really easily.

More edit: About the whole "oh Tide can just walk up to her lol" point: If you are safelane, and your supports are so AFK Tide isn't being zoned out the least bit so he can just walk up and Smash you, you have lost the fucking game already. It doesn't matter what hero you pick in a game like that because the scenario is already a horrible one.

In what universe are you trilaning WR? WR has to have solo XP because she's enormously XP hungry, you can't duo lane her or trilane her.

[Charge me Doctor]

That's just flat-out untrue. There are plenty of opportunities in any game to take towers uncontested - after reaction TPs, while they're 5-man pushing, etc. And again, all she needs is Agh's and a Maelstrom and she has absolutely stupid damage output for her farm. Skadi and shit is great, but all you genuinely need is Agh's, Maelstrom and a BKB - there are plenty of other carries that need comparable amounts of farm to be viable and do less with it.

Edit: WR doesn't farm fast? A hero with an AoE wave clear can't farm fast? At least she doesn't absolutely need a Midas to be a viable core like Silencer or OD do. That's exactly her niche - she can farm up Agh's, Maelstrom and BKB pre-25 from the safelane if your supports actually have brains and stack jungle camps - I actually think she can do it without stacked camps, but stacked camps just makes it easier.

More edit: About the whole "oh Tide can just walk up to her lol" point: If you are safelane, and your supports are so AFK Tide isn't being zoned out the least bit so he can just walk up and Smash you, you have lost the fucking game already. It doesn't matter what hero you pick in a game like that because the scenario is already a horrible one.

You keep assuming that sitting on a lane as a dedicated farmer you will not get attention from ganking heroes, she has zero chances to get away from any kind of CC, all she can do is turn on windrun and pray for not being dead right after it ends. And you keep assuming that all gold will go to a hero who doesn't even participate in teamfights for half of a game, the whole point of stacking ancients is to give Tinker a boost in boots timing so he can wreck enemy team over and over item advantage to a certain hero and start 5 manning enemy team.
If you want someone who will farm for 40 minutes of the game with periodically taking tower while enemy team is busy 5v4ing your team play Prophet or Dusa, it will have much more impact than windrunner.

Also, i don't get how you should fight against someone casually walks away from your ult and leave you to either chase him out of teamfight into enemy ball of death, or change targets and set your ult at 15 seconds CD.

From what i hear you just want to play handicapped Clinkz with pretty model

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T
More edit: About the whole "oh Tide can just walk up to her lol" point: If you are safelane, and your supports are so AFK Tide isn't being zoned out the least bit so he can just walk up and Smash you, you have lost the fucking game already. It doesn't matter what hero you pick in a game like that because the scenario is already a horrible one.

As PizzaSHARK pointed out, putting her into babysitting trilane means that she will get no exp. Also, Tide doesn't really care about support damage on safe lane, its like 20 hp scratches.

[Deleted]

Powershot is garbage for wave clearing. Tiny AOE and loses damage for each target it hits beyond the first. OD and Silencer can easily get quick Midas by virtue of completely dominating their lanes, since they tend to do that. WR tends to get zoned out really easily.



In what universe are you trilaning WR? WR has to have solo XP because she's enormously XP hungry, you can't duo lane her or trilane her.

Not trilaning =! Tidehunter being so uncontested he can walk up and Anchor Smash as he pleases. Just because your supports aren't in lane 100% of the time doesn't mean they won't be there often enough that Tide thinks twice about just walking up to the creepwave - especially if you aren't a complete clutz at controlling the lane equilibrium.

And again, she is not enormously XP hungry as a core - she's no more XP hungry than Void, or Razor, or anyone else that's routinely played in the safelane. I mean, Void would get fucking shat on as well by a Tide that could Anchor Smash him as he pleases, but I don't see that used as an argument against picking Void.

[PizzaSHARK]

Well, i play mainly supports and from WD, Lina, Lion, perspective, all i need is to land 2 spells (one sometimes) on him to kill or gravely damage.
Also, Niiix, nix nix nix nix.

Oh yeah, he's squishy but that doesn't matter because those supports aren't going to get any spells off. Nyx will poop on him but Nyx will get banned or picked if the team has any intention of drafting high-INT heroes like Silencer, Pugna, OD, chickenmage, etc.

[Charge me Doctor]

Oh yeah, he's squishy but that doesn't matter because those supports aren't going to get any spells off. Nyx will poop on him but Nyx will get banned or picked if the team has any intention of drafting high-INT heroes like Silencer, Pugna, OD, chickenmage, etc.

Well, it's quite tricky to deal with him, but still manageable. I have the impression that you imply that all heroes should be manageable in 1v1 situation. Yes, Silencer is extremely good as lane bully, carry and teamfight hero. But what happens when his lane gets wrecked by 3 people in early game and team actually times up to fight without his ult or when he is dead? Or to blow him up/CC before he actually can turn on ult (see: orchid Clinkz).

[Deleted]

Well, it's quite tricky to deal with him, but still manageable. I have the impression that you imply that all heroes should be manageable in 1v1 situation. Yes, Silencer is extremely good as lane bully, carry and teamfight hero. But what happens when his lane gets wrecked by 3 people in early game and team actually times up to fight without his ult or when he is dead? Or to blow him up/CC before he actually can turn on ult (see: orchid Clinkz).

This applies to absolutely every carry in the game.

"What if you silence and kill DK before he can ult?"
"What if you just kill Void before he Chronos? What if you just fight when he doesn't have it?"
"What if you just kite the PA forever? What if you buy 20 force staffs and push her off the map?"

Global Silence is exactly what it says on the tin - you can be 1000 range away from the actual fight, ult, then walk in. If you're getting Orchid'ed before you can use GS, or Chrono, or whatever, that's just you being a bad player with bad positioning and not an inherent flaw with the hero. Quite frankly, the real problem I see with Silencer is that he's a very greedy pick, in the sense that if you're playing him as a core he desperately needs a Midas to keep up with other carries, and right now those picks are punished extremely hard by the meta - but saying he isn't viable because "oh you can just not let Silencer do what Silencer does" is a ridiculous argument.

[PizzaSHARK]

Not trilaning =! Tidehunter being so uncontested he can walk up and Anchor Smash as he pleases. Just because your supports aren't in lane 100% of the time doesn't mean they won't be there often enough that Tide thinks twice about just walking up to the creepwave - especially if you aren't a complete clutz at controlling the lane equilibrium.

Tide has vastly superior lane control compared to WR, and all he has to do Gush her and walk up and smack her around. She can't win the manfight, so she has to run away. Hell, Tide can just camp between creeps and her and completely zone her out of last hit range, she can't do shit vs him.

Tide doesn't give a fuck if supports are around or not, you aren't going to kill boots/kraken shell Tide unless he basically goes AFK. Tide is almost certainly the tankiest hero in the game for the first 20 mins or so.

And again, she is not enormously XP hungry as a core - she's no more XP hungry than Void, or Razor, or anyone else that's routinely played in the safelane. I mean, Void would get fucking shat on as well by a Tide that could Anchor Smash him as he pleases, but I don't see that used as an argument against picking Void.

Dude, yes she is. WR without level advantage is completely useless. She needs maxed shackles, she needs maxed powershot, and now she needs ulti too.

WR is just a fucking horrible hero atm, she needs buffs badly, power creep has left her in the dust.

[Charge me Doctor]

This applies to absolutely every carry in the game.

"What if you silence and kill DK before he can ult?"
"What if you just kill Void before he Chronos? What if you just fight when he doesn't have it?"
"What if you just kite the PA forever? What if you buy 20 force staffs and push her off the map?"

Global Silence is exactly what it says on the tin - you can be 1000 range away from the actual fight, ult, then walk in. If you're getting Orchid'ed before you can use GS, or Chrono, or whatever, that's just you being a bad player with bad positioning and not an inherent flaw with the hero. Quite frankly, the real problem I see with Silencer is that he's a very greedy pick, in the sense that if you're playing him as a core he desperately needs a Midas to keep up with other carries, and right now those picks are punished extremely hard by the meta - but saying he isn't viable because "oh you can just not let Silencer do what Silencer does" is a ridiculous argument.

Focus firing DK, Void or PA is much more difficult than Silencer, who has no health or defensive skills/items.

If you are at 1k range and ult, your team can be poked down or you can be easily flanked by stealth/blinks and you do no damage while you are at 1k range and you waste whole silence because of how slow you are.
He is much more reliable on your team AND on your enemy team, because, as a team, it's quite easy to deal with Silencer, but as randomly generated solo q team, it's much harder. In times of Naix bombs Silencer wasn't a major threat, because charge, bash, infest = dead silencer. Any surprise buttsex character will offer your team enough time without Silencer, and the most important resource for you as a Silencer is time being alive, while you are dead you don't steal int, you don't get exp, gold and waste your midas and probably doom your team on fighting without your ult. Speaking about Doom. Doom is always an option.


And show me who says that he isn't viable?

[Deleted]

First of all, I may have misunderstood your arguments, but is sure sounded to me like you were trying to argue that Silencer didn't work as a carry. If I'm incorrect in that regard, I apologize.

The only reason Silencer has no health is because people build retarded items on him. Sure, if you're gonna rush a Scythe on him (which IMHO is completely unnecessary - it should be considered luxury at best on a carry Silencer) rather than say, Mek and Atos, then you're not going to have any health, but the fact of the matter is that he probably has the best combined stats growths in the game, and his int steal is fucking ridiculous. He doesn't have an escape per se, sure, but if you're really worried about that, there's always Blink or Force.

I mean, I don't think Silencer works in a 4-protect-1 strat, but with any sort of other carry in the game, he has one of the most OP ults in the game, hits like a truck full of fuck, and messes up people completely with Last Word. He might not be the be-all end-all of carries, but at the very least he absolutely forces BKBs on every remotely important hero on the other team, which is a quality all of its own.

[Charge me Doctor]

No, i'm just saying that he is not ultimate invincible hero who can't be countered by anything and pros don't pick him that often only because they are stupid. He is very easy to shut down if you communicate with your team and rat out of teamfights.

He has poor base str and mediocre str gain, he doesn't build much of a health items and vulnerable to nukes and, how contradictory it would sound, silences. I haven't seen Atos being built for ages tho.

[Deleted]

No, i'm just saying that he is not ultimate invincible hero who can't be countered by anything and pros don't pick him that often only because they are stupid. He is very easy to shut down if you communicate with your team and rat out of teamfights.

He has poor base str and mediocre str gain, he doesn't build much of a health items and vulnerable to nukes and, how contradictory it would sound, silences. I haven't seen Atos being built for ages tho.

I'm personally of the opinion that Mek, Atos, then BKB or Shivas should be considered absolutely core on a carry Silencer. It makes him an imposing, tanky presence in fight, as well giving him a pseudo-escape in the sense that chasing someone that has Shivas and Atos is absolute ass.

[PizzaSHARK]

No, i'm just saying that he is not ultimate invincible hero who can't be countered by anything and pros don't pick him that often only because they are stupid. He is very easy to shut down if you communicate with your team and rat out of teamfights.

It's more that he completely counters a ton of lineups and strategies. Rat doto would be the answer to a problematic Silencer pick, just win by avoiding teamfights. Silencer is very difficult to deal with in lanes. He's an alright solo laner, neither good nor bad, but he's incredibly hard to deal with in duo or tri lane setups. I can't overstate how ludicrously strong Last Word is. 150 damage nuke at lvl 1, which is way higher than average, and 50% uptime at lvl 4, coupled with crazy high 1k cast range.

Global Silence dominates teamfights and is extremely good in ganks too because it's, well, global. You can silence them right as you go in so they can't stop you, you can silence them as they go in so they can't follow up on the Ravage (if they even get the Ravage off at all), you can silence them right as they move in to spring a gank so they can't stun the target, etc etc etc.

He has poor base str and mediocre str gain, he doesn't build much of a health items and vulnerable to nukes and, how contradictory it would sound, silences. I haven't seen Atos being built for ages tho.

Meka, Atos, and Agh's are very common items for Silencer that all make him tankier. Shiva's Guard is also common, and with his new AGI growth he has a considerable amount of base armor. Silencer isn't particularly squishy compared to many other core choices (at 17+2.2 he's quite a bit tankier than almost all other INT heroes and many AGI heroes), and while he doesn't have a true escape method, silences can remove the need for one in the first place. Hell, Refresher+Agh's Silencer alone can be devastatingly effective. Not only does it invalidate BKB as a method of protecting from Global Silence (you can just ult them again immediately), it functions as an 800 damage nuke and 400 mana burn for the entire enemy team if you chain them back to back, on top of 14 seconds of silence. For reference, Zeus ulti with Agh's only does 640 damage. GS is also pretty low cd for a powerful ult like that, only 130 sec.

Silencer can GS pretty much anytime the enemy team would want to Panda ult, Ravage, etc.

[Deleted]

Honestly, my only real problem with Global Silence is the castpoint. If you get, say, a Brew on the other team that's smart enough to just blink in and ult rather than be greedy and go for the clap -> ult, then GS has such an ass castpoint that your reactions have to be perfect to stop it. That's really the only downside to it, though. It's an amazing tool for both initiation and counterinitiation.

That said, I think Silencer Agh's is incredibly overrated. I'd much rather get Refresher before Agh's as a 3rd or 4th item, because let's face it, guaranteed CotS isn't better than 4 extra net seconds of Silence and the ability to force BKBs, then Silence them anyway.

[Charge me Doctor]

Str of silencer is comparable Bane i guess (22 base +2,1 gain vs 17 base +2,2, they even out on str at ~20 level), again, i haven't seen Atos being built on anything, for ages, i don't see Silencer that often tho, but last games i've seen Silencer built PT, Aghs, and AC (and i want to highlight that he didn't bought up early point booster how he should, but it didn't really matter because we had a leaver), and another one with PT, Null, Force staff, Orchid (unfinished) with like 7 deaths because he was blown away by anyone who have got up close to him (Cancer lancer doesn't really care about being silenced, as well as Spectre).

He has good armour, but if he doesn't fix his health issue he will be very easy (and tasty, because Silencer is some kind of Teemo from LoL, so fucking annoying that everyone wants a piece of him) target to pick up.

In theory yes, aghs+refresher is good, but if real games it doesn't really happen unless game is already won by silencer team. It requires so much money and levels (see:mana) to be able to use it that it won't happen in mid game.

[PizzaSHARK]

That said, I think Silencer Agh's is incredibly overrated. I'd much rather get Refresher before Agh's as a 3rd or 4th item, because let's face it, guaranteed CotS isn't better than 4 extra net seconds of Silence and the ability to force BKBs, then Silence them anyway.

Agreed.

Str of silencer is comparable Bane i guess (22 base +2,1 gain vs 17 base +2,2, they even out on str at ~20 level), again, i haven't seen Atos being built on anything, for ages, i don't see Silencer that often tho, but last games i've seen Silencer built PT, Aghs, and AC (and i want to highlight that he didn't bought up early point booster how he should, but it didn't really matter because we had a leaver), and another one with PT, Null, Force staff, Orchid (unfinished) with like 7 deaths because he was blown away by anyone who have got up close to him (Cancer lancer doesn't really care about being silenced, as well as Spectre).

I would most likely open with either Meka or Force Staff depending on my team's needs. Both make him much harder to kill in different ways. Probably follow up with Orchid or Atos depending on needs, or even just start going for Refresher Orb.

He has good armour, but if he doesn't fix his health issue he will be very easy (and tasty, because Silencer is some kind of Teemo from LoL, so fucking annoying that everyone wants a piece of him) target to pick up.

Applies to most every hero, honestly.

[Deleted]

I think Silencer is decent in some lineup but I don't think he works against all lineups or fit into many lineups. You people talk about how he can stop a gank with Global. GJ. Now the enemy team is just going to force a fight 20 seconds later because you wasted your ultimate. You waste Global to gank someone on enemy team? They retreat and push right after the hero resapwns. You have to have a pretty strong lineup to hold off the pushes with the current meta between Global CDs. Also, DPs, Razors, Rhastas don't care about Global.

Silencer is also quite useless in fights without his ultimate. He lacks any kind of stun or slow. Last Word does OK damage but other than that he doesn't bring much.

He is also awful at pushing and defending towers.

[PizzaSHARK]

Silencer is also quite useless in fights without his ultimate. He lacks any kind of stun or slow. Last Word does OK damage but other than that he doesn't bring much.

He is also awful at pushing and defending towers.

Applies to chickenmage and many other popular picks, too.

I wouldn't worry about DP because DP is a garbage tier hero.

[Charge me Doctor]

I would most likely open with either Meka or Force Staff depending on my team's needs. Both make him much harder to kill in different ways. Probably follow up with Orchid or Atos depending on needs, or even just start going for Refresher Orb.

Applies to most every hero, honestly.

I really doubt that these items makes him much harder to kill. Mek helps you to survive on your lane and take beating while not losing farm, force staff gives you extra mobility and escape from spotted gank or from non-cc gank.

No, it doesn't. If you play as skywrath mage, who will you silence, Silencer, Visage or Rubick? In almost all situations, for question of "who i'm going to CC in this fight?" answer is "silencer"