1. #14761
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    What's the point of going Treads/Blink if you're not planning to win duels?
    I didn't mean those are bad, I meant if that's all you have you're gonna get shut down so hard unless you're praying to somehow kill all their heroes quick enough before they realize how little you have.

    If I'm wrong correct me, but I don't see LC as a hero that can survive off of those two items alone.

  2. #14762
    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    Edit: Lysah, I'm not sure I understand why it's supposedly hard for Windranger to farm. Powershot is eminently spammable with little regen investment, she has a great attack animation, and she's hard to pin down, so she can farm contested lanes in relative safety. Sure, she can be played from the back and still have some impact, but at some point, if farm-less, Shackleshot becomes her only remotely relevant skill, and quite frankly Shackle just isn't that good.
    Compare that to Luna or DK. One of the biggest reasons Leoric is played as a support is because he also cannot farm very well. PL died out because he sucks at farming and relies on an early radiance to keep up. Some heroes are just natural farmers and people like to pick those heroes first. Powershot doesn't really compare to heroes with natural cleave.

  3. #14763
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    I didn't mean those are bad, I meant if that's all you have you're gonna get shut down so hard unless you're praying to somehow kill all their heroes quick enough before they realize how little you have.

    If I'm wrong correct me, but I don't see LC as a hero that can survive off of those two items alone.
    You don't have time to farm. You're killing. That was my point. Blink/Treads is enough because you don't run around dueling alone.

  4. #14764
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    You don't have time to farm. You're killing. That was my point. Blink/Treads is enough because you don't run around dueling alone.
    Ah, ok. I get what you mean now lol, sorry.
    From the way they worded it, I thought they were implying LC could only use those two items alone. Personally I would try to get at least an Armlet in there too though.

  5. #14765
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Frud View Post
    LC has shit lane presence, needs to snowball fast to even be useful, its a waste to let her farm beyond the initial dagger/treads and her ulti is just an inferior beastmaster ulti that can backfire pretty hard
    LC has shit lane presence? You do know we're talking about Legion Commander, right? Her Q completely prevents heroes from coming up to the creepwave unless they want to eat a 4-500 damage nuke, and she has a low-cost heal that purges disables.

    Yep, sure looks like a bad lane presence to me

  6. #14766
    Overwhelming Odds can be a lot of damage, but I notice that it just... doesn't make much of a difference when laning. It's not like Kunkka where you're forced to stay out of lane and then only have, Idk, 10 or less seconds to do shit before another nuke comes your way. To me, LC lacks the followup during laning to make good on her promise, as it were.

    Though to be fair, I've been up against Sniper each time I've played LC today. Even though it melted around a half of his HP I just had nothing to really add to it afterwards.

  7. #14767
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkenvalley View Post
    Overwhelming Odds can be a lot of damage, but I notice that it just... doesn't make much of a difference when laning. It's not like Kunkka where you're forced to stay out of lane and then only have, Idk, 10 or less seconds to do shit before another nuke comes your way. To me, LC lacks the followup during laning to make good on her promise, as it were.

    Though to be fair, I've been up against Sniper each time I've played LC today. Even though it melted around a half of his HP I just had nothing to really add to it afterwards.
    LC has amazing lane presence because of the movespeed boost from Odds coupled with the damage. Get an early OoV on her (100% core. Not even debatable), and your opponent in lane constantly has to be worried about getting tower-dived by a 400-movespeed enemy with a 12% slow. Coming anywhere near the creep wave against an LC that has just one short-duration disable close to back her up is tantamount to suicide.

  8. #14768
    Deleted
    for you to do 400+ damage you need rank 4 and to hit about 5 creeps and 2 heroes, which in a lane isnt really going to happen more than once in a blue noon, LC is balanced around getting early damage from duel, if you dont have early damage from duel and just farm you are going to end up being outcarried by any other carry,
    and duel in a pub is just too risky because it just screams "KILL LEGION COMMANDER WITH EVERYTHING NOW" and if you fall behind you have no decent catchup whatsoever

  9. #14769
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Frud View Post
    for you to do 400+ damage you need rank 4 and to hit about 5 creeps and 2 heroes, which in a lane isnt really going to happen more than once in a blue noon, LC is balanced around getting early damage from duel, if you dont have early damage from duel and just farm you are going to end up being outcarried by any other carry,
    and duel in a pub is just too risky because it just screams "KILL LEGION COMMANDER WITH EVERYTHING NOW" and if you fall behind you have no decent catchup whatsoever
    You're incorrectly assuming that LC has to be played in the "1" position from the safelane. This can work in a niche setup (pick Skywrath, Duel + Ulti anyone out of position, enjoy epic damages), but she's much better out of the offlane or out of mid. All she needs is Treads + Blink and she's an effective initiator for the rest of the game.

  10. #14770
    Quote Originally Posted by Frud View Post
    for you to do 400+ damage you need rank 4 and to hit about 5 creeps and 2 heroes, which in a lane isnt really going to happen more than once in a blue noon, LC is balanced around getting early damage from duel, if you dont have early damage from duel and just farm you are going to end up being outcarried by any other carry,
    and duel in a pub is just too risky because it just screams "KILL LEGION COMMANDER WITH EVERYTHING NOW" and if you fall behind you have no decent catchup whatsoever
    Sounds like some poor legion commander play.

    #1 She should never be position one
    #2 she does not need items for damage, if you arent feeding, shes actually good at catch up.

    In a game where you cant duel alot early due to the enemy line up, it does not make you useless. Unless you dont understand how to play LC. I been in that situation many time where they force it into a farming match, a LC playing how you decribe would probably lose it. A real LC doesent see it as much problem, because you arent supposed to be the main source of damage. Often in these type of game i dont even break 40 duel damage by the 30 minute mark, so the carry, mid and i farm. If someone finds a pick off i duel it. If not we defend and if a teamfight is advantagous and eventually like in all winning teamfight someone is low, you duel them. Eventually with enough defensive items, youll win duels in the teamfight even if you had 0 damage due to the damage output of your team. Even in this no snowball game i always end up with 200+ duel damage.

  11. #14771
    Deleted
    where other problems arise, on offlane LC is easily zoned out by most hero combinations or just any trilane that knows wtf they are doing, if you go mid you are essentially wasting a slot as you pretty much need a high leveld hero mid who can do some good burst damage in order for you to start snowballing on your +duel damage and legion commander is as bad as it gets at being an initiator, you cant just the other teams core heroes unless you are very farmed, giving away 20 damage to their carry is way way way worse than it is for the other team when you get 20 damage

  12. #14772
    Quote Originally Posted by Frud View Post
    where other problems arise, on offlane LC is easily zoned out by most hero combinations or just any trilane that knows wtf they are doing, if you go mid you are essentially wasting a slot as you pretty much need a high leveld hero mid who can do some good burst damage in order for you to start snowballing on your +duel damage and legion commander is as bad as it gets at being an initiator, you cant just the other teams core heroes unless you are very farmed, giving away 20 damage to their carry is way way way worse than it is for the other team when you get 20 damage
    LC offlane zoned out more then who? Tidehunter? Doom? Do you ever play offlane lol? You really dont seems to play LC much at this point, its ok like everyone youll praise it once you see it played at some Pro event. Brewmaster used to be garbage tier, omg he cant mid or offlane! He get zoned out, loses his lane against a trilane. Irrelevant.

  13. #14773
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Frud View Post
    where other problems arise, on offlane LC is easily zoned out by most hero combinations or just any trilane that knows wtf they are doing, if you go mid you are essentially wasting a slot as you pretty much need a high leveld hero mid who can do some good burst damage in order for you to start snowballing on your +duel damage and legion commander is as bad as it gets at being an initiator, you cant just the other teams core heroes unless you are very farmed, giving away 20 damage to their carry is way way way worse than it is for the other team when you get 20 damage
    Why would you ever Duel a core hero? That's like rule no 1 of LC play - never duel a carry unless it's an easy 3v1 pickoff. You duel the backline supports because it shuts them down and locks them in place for 5 seconds, you're likely to solo-win the Duel, and even if you don't, it doesn't fucking matter if you feed the Lion 20 damage here and there.

  14. #14774
    Deleted
    and what support is going to take the frontline when the 5v5 approaches?

  15. #14775
    Quote Originally Posted by Frud View Post
    and what support is going to take the frontline when the 5v5 approaches?
    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    Why would you ever Duel a core hero? That's like rule no 1 of LC play - never duel a carry unless it's an easy 3v1 pickoff. You duel the backline supports because it shuts them down and locks them in place for 5 seconds, you're likely to solo-win the Duel, and even if you don't, it doesn't fucking matter if you feed the Lion 20 damage here and there.
    They already said backline, not front.

  16. #14776
    Quote Originally Posted by Frud View Post
    and what support is going to take the frontline when the 5v5 approaches?
    The one who's spells are not 2k range, i.e. every single one. Supports die in every 5v5, making sure their carry survives. You don't use duel to initiate, that's just stupid. It's like HERE I AM STUN ME PLS. Wait for a support to drop low, duel, 2 shot, get damage.
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  17. #14777
    Deleted
    that is my point, but "with blink and treads you are an effective initiator for the rest of the game" was said on the last page which is as wrong as it gets

  18. #14778
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Frud View Post
    that is my point, but "with blink and treads you are an effective initiator for the rest of the game" was said on the last page which is as wrong as it gets
    It is entirely correct, just not in a 5v5. It makes you extremely effective at initiating pickoffs, while also allowing you to screw up opponents in teamfights by dueling important supports. Sure, LC isn't a great 5v5 initiator unless their entire teamfight is based around getting off one big ulti, but that doesn't make her a bad initiator, it just means she isn't a teamfight initiator.

    I mean, Tidehunter is a fantastic teamfight initiator and a fucking awful pickoff initiator since you don't want to solo-Ravage people, but you don't see anyone calling him a bad initiation hero.

  19. #14779
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    Quote Originally Posted by veiledy0 View Post
    The one who's spells are not 2k range, i.e. every single one. Supports die in every 5v5, making sure their carry survives. You don't use duel to initiate, that's just stupid. It's like HERE I AM STUN ME PLS. Wait for a support to drop low, duel, 2 shot, get damage.
    Aka "yolo i'm CM with a boot and bracer i'm going to enter middle of the fight and ult!" supports? Sorry, but if one of these persist, the game is already won. What kind of backline support without 2k range skills we are talking about? Abaddon? Io? Treant? I'm pretty sure that Rhasta, WD, Dazzle, Ogre and others can afford sitting in backline throwing their non-2k range skills at enemies without being afraid of LC blinking into middle of your team and ulting you.

    When LC was popular (aka "released") i used to blow up all their duels by playing Lina. You just wait 'ntil she ults someone, blink, stun, ult, she is dead. By the time she gets BKB i managed to get around 4 "won" duels per game. Sadly, some people actually got how to play her now and don't throw their body into a pile of enemies

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post

    I mean, Tidehunter is a fantastic teamfight initiator and a fucking awful pickoff initiator since you don't want to solo-Ravage people, but you don't see anyone calling him a bad initiation hero.
    Blink rank 1 gush is enough to catch someone off position
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  20. #14780
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Blink rank 1 gush is enough to catch someone off position
    Except if its about half the hero you would want to gank that can just escape lol? Blink gush literally just warns them, if i saw a tide hunter do that to a tinker before me as most heroes with silences or stuns, id be mad as hell, its called a ruined gank.

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