1. #18741
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Wouldn't that defeat the purpose. The point is so the caster doesn't know when it's going to end so they can't land perfect stuns every time.
    Without it, this change defeats the purpose of the scepter - being a tool for free skillshots. It needs major overhaul if all of the sudden free skillshots became a problem.
    If you want it to be simply a CC tool, then it should give far more than just 1,5-3,5 seconds, it should be about 4-6 seconds with big cooldown and mana cost.
    If you want it to be defensive tool, then it should have really small duration with purge effect (1-2 seconds is more than enough, it shouldn't be 3+ seconds because you will be able to blink after defending with the scepter)

    I think if the scepter will be nerfed and/or removed as a setup item, Lina and friends will get some sort of soft CC to make it easier to land their shit. I mean, Lesh got his fuck you slow for free stuns, why not everyone? Or skillshot particles will be less visible, like Kunkas' torrent. The only reason Lina exists as a reliable Hero right now is because of the scepter.

    But there could be a compromise - the scepter could daze (AS and MS slow) its target after cyclone ends. It will allow enemy to use his force staff, maginablink, whatever, so landing a skillshot becomes easier when you get the scepter, not 100% accurate
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  2. #18742
    Give euls charges like diffusal
    "I'm not stuck in the trench, I'm maintaining my rating."

  3. #18743
    Perhaps the problem is just the cost. Its too cheap for how much you get from it. The movement speed is nothing to snigger at either.

    Perhaps if it required a mystic staff instead of staff of wizardry.

    That way it gives more intell and wouldnt just be the go too item every time.

    And it retains its function of helping out squishy supports when the other teams carries start sticking on you like glue.

    *edit this option doesnt really address the key issue of lining up "skill shot" spells though. Heres a wacky thought, what if cyclone acted like a cyclone and the area they land is random. could be a certain distance and you get tossed around landing in any area in however big you programme the circle.

    I agree with your sentiment pizzashark this isnt really a issue at pro level play but more your rag tag pub match.
    Last edited by RobertoCarlos; 2015-06-26 at 05:30 AM.

  4. #18744
    Scarab Lord Crackleslap's Avatar
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    I like Lysah's idea with the variable timers. Seems most simple whilst euls still having it's use for the most part.

  5. #18745
    I think the best thing they could do with Euls is make the cyclone self cast only, turn it into a cheap defensive item for supports. The only issue with nerfing Euls in any kind of way is that its just going to push people to buy Rod of Atos as a replacement. Atos isn't totally idiot proof like Euls but it does make landing skillshots far easier. Chances are we'll end up right back where we started, where Atos is the go-to item for Heroes with hard to land skill shots as an almost fail safe setup for them.

  6. #18746
    I don't have a problem with Atos, you have a chance to glimmer cape or force staff or blink or teleport or any number of things. It also doesn't give Lina 480 movespeed for 2800g.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Without it, this change defeats the purpose of the scepter - being a tool for free skillshots. It needs major overhaul if all of the sudden free skillshots became a problem.
    If you want it to be simply a CC tool, then it should give far more than just 1,5-3,5 seconds, it should be about 4-6 seconds with big cooldown and mana cost.
    If you want it to be defensive tool, then it should have really small duration with purge effect (1-2 seconds is more than enough, it shouldn't be 3+ seconds because you will be able to blink after defending with the scepter)

    I think if the scepter will be nerfed and/or removed as a setup item, Lina and friends will get some sort of soft CC to make it easier to land their shit. I mean, Lesh got his fuck you slow for free stuns, why not everyone? Or skillshot particles will be less visible, like Kunkas' torrent. The only reason Lina exists as a reliable Hero right now is because of the scepter.

    But there could be a compromise - the scepter could daze (AS and MS slow) its target after cyclone ends. It will allow enemy to use his force staff, maginablink, whatever, so landing a skillshot becomes easier when you get the scepter, not 100% accurate
    Does Lina really need help landing her stun? Dragon Slave and Laguna Blade alone can almost kill any heroe from full health at level 7 with the addition of a couple of auto attacks (that she will fire pretty rapidly with her free hyperstones). None of the heroes that use Eul's as a cop out actually need it to be good heroes. Jakiro is perhaps the one exception, but ice path is very strong even if you can't guarantee it lands on people. The removal of Eul's just makes him more defensive and less of a set up. Add to heroes like Disruptor Lina Lesh and it becomes fairly close to game breaking. Not only is the cast time part of the balancing factor for these spells, but the range is. You can get hit by a Eul's from well outside the range of the setup moves of these heroes, Eul's effectively increases the cast range on their combo which is a huge part of the problem.

  7. #18747
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Does Lina really need help landing her stun? Dragon Slave and Laguna Blade alone can almost kill any heroe from full health at level 7 with the addition of a couple of auto attacks (that she will fire pretty rapidly with her free hyperstones). None of the heroes that use Eul's as a cop out actually need it to be good heroes. Jakiro is perhaps the one exception, but ice path is very strong even if you can't guarantee it lands on people. The removal of Eul's just makes him more defensive and less of a set up. Add to heroes like Disruptor Lina Lesh and it becomes fairly close to game breaking. Not only is the cast time part of the balancing factor for these spells, but the range is. You can get hit by a Eul's from well outside the range of the setup moves of these heroes, Eul's effectively increases the cast range on their combo which is a huge part of the problem.
    All right, but then randomizing CC duration won't do that much (outside of wrecking Lina to the ground with her unreliable stun she won't be picked again), and Lina (i believe) will get some sort of compensation for having the scepter removed from her item pool, because without the scepter it's fucking hard to land her stun. For some reason, Lesh got himself a slow to solve this issue but Lina didn't get one. Building the scepter is always better than building the rod of Atos for purpose of making skillshot CC more reliable, for lulz sake, building helm of dominator and snatching the-troll-with-a-net-spell will work better than the rod of Atos.

    I agree that range on it is very stupid, even if you use it defensively you don't need that much of a range, and if you want to CC someone in behind - well, you have to move forwards and opponent should have at least chance of outplaying this item. I wouldn't mind if the scepters range would get cut.

    And to answer your first question - yes, she needs her stun to be more reliable, just like Lesh did before he got his slow. Her casting a stun can be seen from very far, she either have to get Kunkka treatment (enemy doesn't see where her land is incoming and she doesn't turn around), or Lesh treatment (some sort of slow), or her stun to be rebalanced completely and any of this should happen in same patch where Eul's scepter is nerfed.
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  8. #18748
    Lina gets the help she needs from other heroes. Lina/Sven has been one of the strongest lanes in the game for years. And again, Dragon Slave got like a 30% damage boost and she has a pure damage dagon 6 with aghs, she does massive damage without her stun AND she also still has huge move and attack speed thanks to her passive. Saying she needs her stun is like saying QOP needs a stun to be viable. Just having massive damage is enough. I wouldn't be opposed to a LSA buff if Slave gets nerfed back down to 280 damage.

    Really, though, they could just remove the movespeed buff on Eul's and it would probably be okay. My biggest complaint with the item is that after Lina blows someone up with 360 noscope skills, she jets away at near max movespeed from euls and her passive and you can't punish her for it.

  9. #18749
    Idno i feel like euls is more situational than core on lina atm with glimmer cape/silver edge added, its really not hard to land stuns without it, though without euls she would be shit against heroes like storm with blinks n stuff.

  10. #18750
    Axe question: should I aim for higher hp pool or for higher armor lategame?
    Basically, Shiva or Tarrasque?

  11. #18751
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    Axe question: should I aim for higher hp pool or for higher armor lategame?
    Basically, Shiva or Tarrasque?
    depends on what you are playing against

    farmed physical damage carry = armor
    mostly magical damage = raw hp

  12. #18752
    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    depends on what you are playing against

    farmed physical damage carry = armor
    mostly magical damage = raw hp
    against cancer lancer F.e.

  13. #18753
    I'd get shiva's against cancer lancer the debuff as well as the active all help but Axe just isn't great against pl.

    He's one of those heroes who does ok mid game then PL just annihilates late game.

    In the meta now you have to really run him in the offlane against good opposition which in turn is going to slow your dagger heavily which then means pl will probably have farm and your impact will be lower.

  14. #18754
    Quote Originally Posted by Release View Post
    I'd get shiva's against cancer lancer the debuff as well as the active all help but Axe just isn't great against pl.

    He's one of those heroes who does ok mid game then PL just annihilates late game.

    In the meta now you have to really run him in the offlane against good opposition which in turn is going to slow your dagger heavily which then means pl will probably have farm and your impact will be lower.
    well I tend to jungle tranq-> fast dagger, then depending on situation -> vanguard/bkb , with Wand somewhere inbetween

  15. #18755
    KILL ME PLEASE BUT STEAM SUPPORT FIRST.

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  16. #18756
    as axe, I usually would go for, tranq vanguard blink (or blinkbefore vanguard) into force staff/eul blademail aghs or refresher (double call win games).

    i dont think u want shivas vs cancer lancer, he'll do more dmg to u because u'll have more mana..
    "We live in a world where a style of play that uses posession and passing to try and make spaces is made fun of.
    While a style of play where a team sits back for 90 minutes and breaks away in 1v1 situations is respected."
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  17. #18757
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    Item nerfs that need to happen:

    - Glimmer Cape invisibility is removed from moving in addition to attacking, casting spells, or using items, with a 1.0 sec reveal time (think SK Sandstorm.) Magic resist is still +55% and takes effect immediately, but is reduced to +20% while invisible.

    Better than just making it more expensive - it could cost 2500 gold and it would still be OP as hell. Glimmer Cape gives a brief surge of MR suitable for predicting very fast bursts (Laguna Blade, etc) or reacting to delayed effects (Reaper's Scythe, etc) that quickly drops to a mild boost once the invis takes hold. The invis can then be used a lot like a short duration Meld (useful for channeled spells), or you can continue moving for a 1.0 sec grace period exactly like SK's Sandstorm. Alternative might be to make it function like a reverse Ghost Scepter, that makes you nearly immune to spells but makes you take more damage from physical damage for the duration of the effect.

    Right now, there's no opportunity cost to buying or using Glimmer Cape, and using it is pretty brainless. Use of items in DotA should never be able to be described as "brainless."

    - Eul's cost increased to 3000 gold. Cast range reduced to 425. Movement speed reduced to +25.

    Range nerfs combined with cost increase and stat nerfs should balance the item out and make it less of an automatic, brainless decision for heroes that can abuse it. 425 cast range is pretty short, meaning it will be very important to have some kind of initiation tool to get into range if you want to faceroll heroes with Eul's combos. Blink dagger would be the most common choice, but that's a 5300 gold investment that consumes two item slots and provides relatively few stats for the cost. In other words, buying and using Eul's would have an actual fucking opportunity cost.

    - Blink Dagger cooldown increased to 16 sec. Blink dagger cooldown does not continue while Blink Dagger is broken. Tinker's Rearm will reset core Blink Dagger cooldown but will not affect a Blink Dagger's broken cooldown. Blink Dagger will always blink up to 1200 distance, even if targeted outside the item's maximum range.

    Making blink dagger more clearly an initiation-only item for fighting purposes and nerfs it a bit as a general map mobility tool without increasing gold cost or making it have a mana cost again. In order to be able to blink out of a fight, you have to avoid taking any damage for the full duration of the blinker's remaining cooldown, not just dip into the trees and blink away to safety. Blinker is still hideously overpowered but has become overshadowed by glimmer cape and cheatstick; if those items got properly nerfed, it'd just be a return to the blink dagger meta again if blinker wasn't simultaneously nerfed. This nerf directly targets heroes that buy blinker for mid-fight mobility while still leaving it just as potent for blink-reliant initiators, especially Sand King and Earthshaker (probably the only two heroes in the game that are reliant on having a Blink Dagger to be able to use their ults past ~20 mins.)


    Some item-related hero changes I think need to happen:

    - Lycan minions can be slowed during Shapeshift. They still get the 650 move speed, but can now be slowed like normal units.

    This makes Necrobook less of a no-loss use for Lycan, since it's now possible to slow and kill the necrominions to cash in on their huge XP and bounties if you're chasing the Lycan away. Every single other Necrobook user has to think about when and where to summon the necrominions to avoid feeding them (getting the pair is a whopping 400 gold and XP... it's like feeding a hero kill), there is zero reason Lycan shouldn't also have to do this. Necrobook is not overpowered, but Lycan's interaction with it is, because the massive bounties for the minions is the item's primary balancing factor and currently Lycan can basically ignore it at will.

    - Anti-Mage's Mana Break is no longer a unique attack modifier. Mana Void radius reduced to 375.

    AM stands to become a lot more interesting hero if he receives the Ursa treatment. Mana Void may end up needing to be nerfed once this happens, simply because they've been constantly buffing Mana Void so that AM can actually have gameplay relevance before he's spent 25 mins afk farming and an AM that suddenly has item build options might become overpowered when combined with a very obviously (and necessarily) overpowered Mana Void. Desolator might become too strong on him, however, since Mana Break is physical damage. Probably no worse than Desolator on a Weaver, though.

    - Slark's Shadow Dance passive now has a timing window of 1.50 sec (up from 0.50 sec) before the passive effects take hold after leaving enemy vision or taking damage. Activating Shadow Dance causes the passive effects to begin instantly.

    Direct nerf to Slark's use of Shadowblade, which is probably the single most gamebreaking hero-item interaction in the game right now. Slark is supposed to be a slippery hero, but Shadowblade makes it far too easy to escape after you blunder into a bad situation, especially on top of Shadow Dance active. This change nerfs Shadowblade as a defensive item but still leaves it effective as a roaming and attack item, and also makes escaping less effortless for him while also encouraging more tactical use of active Shadow Dance. There will now be a severe (most likely fatal) penalty for brainless Shadow Dance use. Probably nerfs Slark's jungling efficiency, but he shouldn't be a strong jungler anyway, not when he's so good at killing heroes with zero farm.
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  18. #18758
    I don't think deso am would be very good, skadi am though...

  19. #18759
    Id rather not turn dota into hots, i like my op heroes and op items in specific situations

  20. #18760
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Item nerfs that need to happen:

    Anti-Mage's Mana Break is no longer a unique attack modifier. Mana Void radius reduced to 375.

    AM stands to become a lot more interesting hero if he receives the Ursa treatment. Mana Void may end up needing to be nerfed once this happens, simply because they've been constantly buffing Mana Void so that AM can actually have gameplay relevance before he's spent 25 mins afk farming and an AM that suddenly has item build options might become overpowered when combined with a very obviously (and necessarily) overpowered Mana Void. Desolator might become too strong on him, however, since Mana Break is physical damage. Probably no worse than Desolator on a Weaver, though.
    Nah thats the sad state AM is in really, even with the strong mana void his starting stats and his scaling is just not strong enough to man fight multiple other heroes and many carry can outright destroy him 1v1 so easily. I think he does needs the orbs to stack and he wouldnt even be close to OP.

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