1. #18761
    I don't think AM needs buffs

  2. #18762
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M1r4g3 View Post
    Id rather not turn dota into hots, i like my op heroes and op items in specific situations
    The issue is that these item-hero combinations, or items themselves, are so overpowered that they negate huge chunks of gameplay. Landing a Light Strike Array or Split Earth consistently should require a lot of timing and prediction, or assistance from teammates. With Eul's, that element of gameplay - prediction, coordination, etc - goes right out the window because you can just push your cyclone button and get a guaranteed stun. With current blink dagger, you can overextend and put yourself into bad situations, but all you need to do is dip into the trees and you can blink down a cliff and you're home free - the requirement for positioning and intelligent engagements is mostly nullified once you have that item. With glimmer cape, you can overextend like crazy and suffer no punishment, because even if they dust you, you still get Huskar levels of magic resistance.

    Lycan doesn't have to think about when to use Necrobook like other heroes do because he can just run away with his ultra haste rune and there's no risk of feeding them.

    Slark doesn't have to worry about engaging intelligently because all he needs to do is press his shadowblade button and half a second later he has 522 ms and a free Heart regen going, and he doesn't have to worry about dust because he has a built-in mechanic to deal with it.

    And so on and so forth. Items should be powerful, but they should not be so powerful they allow you to ignore gameplay mechanics.
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    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
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  3. #18763
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Item nerfs that need to happen:
    - Glimmer Cape
    - Eul's
    - Blink Dagger
    I'd say Glimmer Cape is fine as it is now. Its got a heavy mana cost to offset its power and the stats don't provide a whole lot of benefit to the people who'd usually look to buy it, Int based supports are mostly quite fragile so the extra 20 spell resistance is mostly goes to waste - They're going to get blown up no matter what most of the time. The Attack Speed provides almost nothing of value to these kinds of Hero really. There are a couple of exceptions where Str Heroes can make decent use of it, like Spirit Breaker, but they really suffer with the Mana cost.
    The bonus spell resist is where it really shines, 55% is a lot. But by the time supports have a Glimmer carries are usually most of the way to a BKB. It can also be outclassed here by a Pipe if there's a lot of AoE spells to deal with, but that one is more situational.

    And when all is said and done, it also suffers from the same problem as Invisibility on Heroes, its very easy to counter with Dust and Wards. You may not be able to instagib someone even with Dusts, but they're still vulnrable to just being attacked to death. If you're buying it instead of a Shadow Blade or a BKB to prevent channeled ults being interrupted, dust/wards still reveals them and lets you stun.

    I'm sure I mentioned this before, but any serious nerfs to Eul's is just going to have people rushing to buy Atos as a replacement. I'm fine with that, but we then have the situation where Eul's is a totally "useless" item that no one ever buys, and I'm not okay with that. There has to be a niche for both of them in game, otherwise you might as well just remove one of them entirely. It means that any change to Eul's is going to have to push it into a different niche than just making skillshots easy to land and, unfortunately, that is probably going to require more than just a stat/cost adjustment.

    As for Blink Dagger...The problem is that its required to make up for deficiencies in a Heroes kit. Its fine saying that its only absolutely required for Sandking and Earthshaker to ult, but what about other Initiators? The only ones that can reliably get a team fight going without it are Tusk, Clockwerk, Centaur, Naga and Void. Possiably Treant and Titan, but those depend more on the other team being caught off guard than them having a reliable "go!" skill. You could also include Invoker here too, but thats very dependent on him building to initiate and most don't. It cannot be removed or nerfed to near uselessness without indirectly nerfing a lot of the Heroes that depend on it to function. I agree, it should be an initiation only item, but your proposed changed wouldn't solve much. It may stop people like Sven or WK being able to use it as a crutch mobility tool, but its also not going to prevent Brewmaster, Puck or Invoker from being able to abuse it to escape either.

    What would probably work better would be to remove the Blink Dagger as an item all together. Instead have a limited availability consumable item, for a suitable cost of course, that has the same effect as a Blink Dagger does currently. It will mean people are able to Blink around much sooner, but the fact that doing so is going to have a very real gold cost both for yourself and a potentially damaging effect on the rest of your team might be enough to deter people from spamming it as they please. It'll also mean that the more you use a Blink, the more its going to cost you, kind of like a Blinking Tax. It'll also going to mean that the total cost for a team having access to Blink is going to be, on the whole, higher but without having to pay for it all in one lump sum. So even when games are going totally horrendously for you, certain Heroes aren't going to be left none-functional.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I don't think AM needs buffs
    His big problem is that he needs a team built around him. One that will allow him the time and space to get the farm he needs and even then its a bit of a gamble when there are other Heroes who could fit in to that sort of a team better, like Medusa. AM's prefered style of play got pushed out of the meta, and has been pushed further and further out with recent changes to comeback mechanics, creep bounties and so on. Maybe he could use one or two small changes to help bring him back in, but we probably won't be seeing much of him for the forseeable future.

  4. #18764
    I got called a bad Tiny last night and I cried only for 20 minutes.

    But seriously, how would you guys even build Tiny as a "carry"? I mean, personally I have a really hard time picturing him working as a full blown carry, more of a semi-carry, but hey, when the rest of your team instalocks their heroes basically and then demands someone else plays a specific hero.

  5. #18765
    Agha, Yasha, AC, you can get in MoM, Moonshard, Dagger, build the Yasha into Manta or SnY

  6. #18766
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    The issue is that these item-hero combinations, or items themselves, are so overpowered that they negate huge chunks of gameplay. Landing a Light Strike Array or Split Earth consistently should require a lot of timing and prediction, or assistance from teammates. With Eul's, that element of gameplay - prediction, coordination, etc - goes right out the window because you can just push your cyclone button and get a guaranteed stun. With current blink dagger, you can overextend and put yourself into bad situations, but all you need to do is dip into the trees and you can blink down a cliff and you're home free - the requirement for positioning and intelligent engagements is mostly nullified once you have that item. With glimmer cape, you can overextend like crazy and suffer no punishment, because even if they dust you, you still get Huskar levels of magic resistance.

    Lycan doesn't have to think about when to use Necrobook like other heroes do because he can just run away with his ultra haste rune and there's no risk of feeding them.

    Slark doesn't have to worry about engaging intelligently because all he needs to do is press his shadowblade button and half a second later he has 522 ms and a free Heart regen going, and he doesn't have to worry about dust because he has a built-in mechanic to deal with it.

    And so on and so forth. Items should be powerful, but they should not be so powerful they allow you to ignore gameplay mechanics.

    You're ignoring the fact that those items have a cost attributed to them. They don't come free. They cost gold and an item slot. That's gold that players who don't have issues with over extending or skill shots can use to get better items.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #18767
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    I got called a bad Tiny last night and I cried only for 20 minutes.

    But seriously, how would you guys even build Tiny as a "carry"? I mean, personally I have a really hard time picturing him working as a full blown carry, more of a semi-carry, but hey, when the rest of your team instalocks their heroes basically and then demands someone else plays a specific hero.
    ... how could you possibly struggle to see Tiny working as a carry? He gets like 300 free base damage and bonus building damage from his ult + Agh's. Treads-Agh's-AC-Crit and you can go toe-to-toe with just about anyone.

  8. #18768
    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    ... how could you possibly struggle to see Tiny working as a carry? He gets like 300 free base damage and bonus building damage from his ult + Agh's. Treads-Agh's-AC-Crit and you can go toe-to-toe with just about anyone.
    Because he has no abilities really to support that I guess? Like, I can see how he could be a threat, but like, he has nothing like PA or Riki to stay glued on someone or maybe escape even, or the ability to kill someone quickly unless you get a huge amount of farm, since you'd need the attack speed since his is rather slow, but that causes him the damage loss if you rush attack speed over like Aghs. I just can't see a team picking Tiny and saying "Thats our core carry", he'd do better at just giving kills to a team mate I think.

    Granted, maybe he is picked as a core carry, but I don't think I've ever seen that, usually he's an initiator if anything.

  9. #18769
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Because he has no abilities really to support that I guess? Like, I can see how he could be a threat, but like, he has nothing like PA or Riki to stay glued on someone or maybe escape even, or the ability to kill someone quickly unless you get a huge amount of farm, since you'd need the attack speed since his is rather slow, but that causes him the damage loss if you rush attack speed over like Aghs. I just can't see a team picking Tiny and saying "Thats our core carry", he'd do better at just giving kills to a team mate I think.

    Granted, maybe he is picked as a core carry, but I don't think I've ever seen that, usually he's an initiator if anything.
    I mean idk man you must have never watched a game of pro DotA in your life or something. Tiny isn't even picked to manfight other people in the first place; he's picked with Io to fuck people up with Relocate-AvaToss in between farming enough items that he can turn rax into dust in the span of seconds.

    He's a core. Shouldn't be played as anything else in a serious game. End of story. His supposed inability to "stay glued on people" is irrelevant (and in reality not an issue since you almost always get Blink on a Tiny that has to do any sort of fighting) when you pick him with Io and Relocate on top of people and pick him to slay buildings rather than heroes in the first place.

  10. #18770
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post

    His big problem is that he needs a team built around him. One that will allow him the time and space to get the farm he needs and even then its a bit of a gamble when there are other Heroes who could fit in to that sort of a team better, like Medusa. AM's prefered style of play got pushed out of the meta, and has been pushed further and further out with recent changes to comeback mechanics, creep bounties and so on. Maybe he could use one or two small changes to help bring him back in, but we probably won't be seeing much of him for the forseeable future.
    AM is still very strong early, mostly immune to spells which are the driving force behind early game kills, and blink lets him ignore a lot of other early game power houses (omnislash, slark, slard). It just be time for the days of vanguard AM to return. I used to pick him in 6.83 and go offlane to shut down Jugg pickers all the time. Hard for heroes like Jugg to operate without any mana.

    @Tiny
    Is this the time where I make a reddit thread saying "I'm 18th best Tiny in the world according to dotabuff, here are my tips!"
    I don't think you should rush Aghs anymore on Tiny. The days of going fast Aghs and taking towers and farming jungle are over. Build quick attack speed and kill people early abusing the damage from Grow. You should probably have at least 2 core items before you consider an Aghs. The bonus it gives you is very overvalued for how much it costs and it's not uncommon for me to be in games where enemy Tiny has blink Aghs and a hyperstone and is completely irrelevant in team fights after his stun is gone.

  11. #18771
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    You're ignoring the fact that those items have a cost attributed to them. They don't come free. They cost gold and an item slot. That's gold that players who don't have issues with over extending or skill shots can use to get better items.
    You are right, throw here mana costs of items and they are quite balanced. Eul's scepter mana cost is 175, quite a number in early and mid game. In case of Lina, she has to have 655 - 1130 mana depending on here levels to pop someone up with her Eul's combo. So Nyx mana burning her will give her a lot of problems. As well as mid OD. Or Silencer throwing last world on her (in this case i doubt that she will ever use the scepter offensively, she will need it to dispel global silence)

    It also would be nice to see more stuff to deal with offensive cyclone, not just Pudges hook. But outside of lack of things to deal with cyclone - there is plenty of things to deal with Lina or with targeted ally.

    Things i wouldn't mind be nerfed on the scepter is item cost and active range. Also i wouldn't mind making laguna blade disjointable for peepz to juke it with shit like glimmers cape or native stealth. Or her MS boost gone.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    @Tiny
    Is this the time where I make a reddit thread saying "I'm 18th best Tiny in the world according to dotabuff, here are my tips!"
    I don't think you should rush Aghs anymore on Tiny. The days of going fast Aghs and taking towers and farming jungle are over. Build quick attack speed and kill people early abusing the damage from Grow. You should probably have at least 2 core items before you consider an Aghs. The bonus it gives you is very overvalued for how much it costs and it's not uncommon for me to be in games where enemy Tiny has blink Aghs and a hyperstone and is completely irrelevant in team fights after his stun is gone.
    Is it again worth it to go hyper/ribs buriza then?
    Last edited by Charge me Doctor; 2015-06-27 at 08:20 PM.
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  12. #18772
    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    I mean idk man you must have never watched a game of pro DotA in your life or something. Tiny isn't even picked to manfight other people in the first place; he's picked with Io to fuck people up with Relocate-AvaToss in between farming enough items that he can turn rax into dust in the span of seconds.

    He's a core. Shouldn't be played as anything else in a serious game. End of story. His supposed inability to "stay glued on people" is irrelevant (and in reality not an issue since you almost always get Blink on a Tiny that has to do any sort of fighting) when you pick him with Io and Relocate on top of people and pick him to slay buildings rather than heroes in the first place.
    Well, I've seen pro games, just not a single one with Tiny. But yeah with Io he could wreck I'd imagine, sadly I didn't have an Io. Although it sounds like my mistake probably was focusing Aghs from the suggestions so far, and by the time I had anything, Windranger would shackle me, ult me, and I'd die.

  13. #18773
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    You're ignoring the fact that those items have a cost attributed to them. They don't come free. They cost gold and an item slot. That's gold that players who don't have issues with over extending or skill shots can use to get better items.
    The gold cost is irrelevant, and so is the slot cost. These items are also "best in slot" items for the heroes that have those item-hero interactions. Lina will never sell her cheatstick. Slark will never sell his Shadowblade, instead upgrading it to Silver Edge eventually. These items are quite simply the best possible use of that gold, for that hero.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    You are right, throw here mana costs of items and they are quite balanced. Eul's scepter mana cost is 175, quite a number in early and mid game. In case of Lina, she has to have 655 - 1130 mana depending on here levels to pop someone up with her Eul's combo. So Nyx mana burning her will give her a lot of problems. As well as mid OD. Or Silencer throwing last world on her (in this case i doubt that she will ever use the scepter offensively, she will need it to dispel global silence)

    It also would be nice to see more stuff to deal with offensive cyclone, not just Pudges hook. But outside of lack of things to deal with cyclone - there is plenty of things to deal with Lina or with targeted ally.

    Things i wouldn't mind be nerfed on the scepter is item cost and active range. Also i wouldn't mind making laguna blade disjointable for peepz to juke it with shit like glimmers cape or native stealth. Or her MS boost gone.
    Mana cost is completely irrelevant to an INT hero. It doesn't matter how much it costs if it guarantees you a kill without effort. That's part of why Storm Spirit is so broken - it doesn't matter how much zip costs if the person he jumps on is dead before they can fight back.

    The mana cost increase only nerfed it for heroes that didn't really buy Eul's much to begin with - like if you wanted to try buying it on a Sven or a Tiny or a Panda or something as a utility item for your team. For those heroes, Eul's is no longer an option because it costs more than the 10 INT gives in mana.

    But for SF, Lina, and basically any other caster hero? They don't give two shits about the mana cost, so the mana cost nerf was entirely pointless.
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  14. #18774
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Well, I've seen pro games, just not a single one with Tiny. But yeah with Io he could wreck I'd imagine, sadly I didn't have an Io. Although it sounds like my mistake probably was focusing Aghs from the suggestions so far, and by the time I had anything, Windranger would shackle me, ult me, and I'd die.
    When the enemy team has many cc... bkb? I mean im not sure how anyone could not see tiny as a carry. You deal 300 damage without items jesus. You just get 2 core items with attack speed, then eventually aghs... you wont have to stick to target all game, because youll cleave half their team every swing. Plus Tiny has the choice to play Rat too, one of your attack speed item can just be manta style. Nobody kills building faster then aghs/manta tiny.

  15. #18775
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Mana cost is completely irrelevant to an INT hero. It doesn't matter how much it costs if it guarantees you a kill without effort. That's part of why Storm Spirit is so broken - it doesn't matter how much zip costs if the person he jumps on is dead before they can fight back.

    The mana cost increase only nerfed it for heroes that didn't really buy Eul's much to begin with - like if you wanted to try buying it on a Sven or a Tiny or a Panda or something as a utility item for your team. For those heroes, Eul's is no longer an option because it costs more than the 10 INT gives in mana.

    But for SF, Lina, and basically any other caster hero? They don't give two shits about the mana cost, so the mana cost nerf was entirely pointless.
    How so? Even if you are int hero, you still have limited mana pool and often very slow mana regen (compared to how much mana you leak out when do a combo). Int heroes do not get +1k mana for free so they can spam spells. If it costs 700 mana out of your 700 mana to pop someone up - you'd better to have these 700 mana. Simple mana burn, even mana break and this point, or defensive light strike array will fuck you up. To make it more simple - you have to walk from base, kill someone with your imba combo and go back to base to refill mana. But it never happens (and not because AM/Nyx/KotL/Silencer/Pugna are not popular).

    Granted, you have a cheat for this - the bottle, cheap refillable source of 210 mana. It costs just 700 gold and solves all your mana issues in early/mid game. Throw arcane boots on top of that - mana is not a problem anymore for burst-heavy characters. Maybe we should look in this direction instead? How it easy and cheap became to solve your mana problems in early/mid game (and these problems, at least for me, was one of main features of the game).

    In case of SS - he is broken because mana cost of his "no range" ult is insignificant (thanks to bottle) and it gives you huge benefits (invulnerability and damage boost). It has nothing to do with him being OOM after killing someone. If it actually happens he most likely dies of enemy teammates, Lina is quite immune to this thanks to shitton of MS.

    SF is completely different story. Without items (windwalk/cyclone) SF literally can't do max damage with his ult. It's quite fair (except of the scepters range) to use it this way, same as for Lina. It's quite an investment both gold and mana cost to get what you get from this item. The only moment it gets irrelevant is when 175 mana cost becomes irrelevant. And it's too easy to do with very cheap items. That's part of a problem i see in this, not players using item as the item was designed to be used. Cheap mana regen items is one thing, cheap reusable mana potions is another. I think this problem was overlooked and it has to be addressed. But i don't think it will be addressed, at least not in a single patch.

    And it's quite funny that this whole discussion rolls around burst character reliably picking off enemies who run around solo. Isn't its, like, their whole purpose? Because i can't believe that Lina can go 1v2, cyclone someone, stand there for 2 seconds, throw combo killing one of enemies, while second enemy does... Does what exactly? Just stands there? Can't he, like, smack her? Or CC her?
    Last edited by Charge me Doctor; 2015-06-27 at 09:47 PM.
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  16. #18776
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Is it again worth it to go hyper/ribs buriza then?
    Not sure I have a direct build in mind for Tiny anymore. I've just realized that 4200g for virtually 0 damage increase doesn't seem worth it really anymore. If you buy it so that you can farm harder, fine, but you should buy it realizing it's essentially a slightly worse battlefury. I would probably go manta/SY + AC first. I find Tiny doesn't usually have enough slots for Daedalus late game, sadly, which is why I don't consider him a proper carry, either. What he IS very good at, though, is breaking buildings, and winning early game, and farming quickly enough to shut down most carries before THEY get items like daedalus.

  17. #18777
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Not sure I have a direct build in mind for Tiny anymore. I've just realized that 4200g for virtually 0 damage increase doesn't seem worth it really anymore. If you buy it so that you can farm harder, fine, but you should buy it realizing it's essentially a slightly worse battlefury. I would probably go manta/SY + AC first. I find Tiny doesn't usually have enough slots for Daedalus late game, sadly, which is why I don't consider him a proper carry, either. What he IS very good at, though, is breaking buildings, and winning early game, and farming quickly enough to shut down most carries before THEY get items like daedalus.
    Well i really "enjoy" seeing enemy Tiny who rushed Aghs TPing to tower via wisp and murdering it to the ground with MoM active. Not a foolproof strategy, but it's very annoying to go "yay, free Roshan, oh wait our rax are gone". Frankly, same can be told about CK+wisp.
    It was also fun to see Tiny one shotting supports with crits, or melting through Naixs' lifesteal and stomping him into the ground. Simple Hypertone gives Tiny a huge powerspike, put a crit item on top of that extra 100 damage he gets from ult - perfect melee carry. The problem is delivering said carry to proper targets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  18. #18778
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    Lina's MS is definitely a huge issue. If she throws out her 3 spells she gets +120 IAS and +15% ms for several seconds with just one point in Fiery Soul. It allows her to instantly remove anyone from the fight (which is fine, it's a major part of her character design) and then very often just walk away from any reprisal, especially once she gets Eul's (which is not fine.)

    It's not really surprising that passive is so stupidly OP when it's one of the most sought-after skills in Ability Draft. Getting Fiery Soul and any kind of spell with a remotely low cooldown is pretty much an automatic win in AD.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
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  19. #18779
    Quote Originally Posted by Ouch View Post
    When the enemy team has many cc... bkb? I mean im not sure how anyone could not see tiny as a carry. You deal 300 damage without items jesus. You just get 2 core items with attack speed, then eventually aghs... you wont have to stick to target all game, because youll cleave half their team every swing. Plus Tiny has the choice to play Rat too, one of your attack speed item can just be manta style. Nobody kills building faster then aghs/manta tiny.
    Off the top of my head, shackleshot is the only cc I can remember that they had, or at least the only person who would use theirs.

    And like I said already, from everyone's posts it seems like my mistake was going damage over attack speed.

  20. #18780
    as tiny I think you just go blink treads aghs mom w.e u want, blink is just way too good.. help u with farm and u get ez kills since u can kill 1 shot one with ur combo.

    aghs ac travel bfly/satanic manta/bkb Daedalus is one of the best item on tiny late game.
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