1. #18881
    as axe, I usually would go for, tranq vanguard blink (or blinkbefore vanguard) into force staff/eul blademail aghs or refresher (double call win games).

    i dont think u want shivas vs cancer lancer, he'll do more dmg to u because u'll have more mana..
    "We live in a world where a style of play that uses posession and passing to try and make spaces is made fun of.
    While a style of play where a team sits back for 90 minutes and breaks away in 1v1 situations is respected."
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  2. #18882
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Item nerfs that need to happen:

    - Glimmer Cape invisibility is removed from moving in addition to attacking, casting spells, or using items, with a 1.0 sec reveal time (think SK Sandstorm.) Magic resist is still +55% and takes effect immediately, but is reduced to +20% while invisible.

    Better than just making it more expensive - it could cost 2500 gold and it would still be OP as hell. Glimmer Cape gives a brief surge of MR suitable for predicting very fast bursts (Laguna Blade, etc) or reacting to delayed effects (Reaper's Scythe, etc) that quickly drops to a mild boost once the invis takes hold. The invis can then be used a lot like a short duration Meld (useful for channeled spells), or you can continue moving for a 1.0 sec grace period exactly like SK's Sandstorm. Alternative might be to make it function like a reverse Ghost Scepter, that makes you nearly immune to spells but makes you take more damage from physical damage for the duration of the effect.

    Right now, there's no opportunity cost to buying or using Glimmer Cape, and using it is pretty brainless. Use of items in DotA should never be able to be described as "brainless."

    - Eul's cost increased to 3000 gold. Cast range reduced to 425. Movement speed reduced to +25.

    Range nerfs combined with cost increase and stat nerfs should balance the item out and make it less of an automatic, brainless decision for heroes that can abuse it. 425 cast range is pretty short, meaning it will be very important to have some kind of initiation tool to get into range if you want to faceroll heroes with Eul's combos. Blink dagger would be the most common choice, but that's a 5300 gold investment that consumes two item slots and provides relatively few stats for the cost. In other words, buying and using Eul's would have an actual fucking opportunity cost.

    - Blink Dagger cooldown increased to 16 sec. Blink dagger cooldown does not continue while Blink Dagger is broken. Tinker's Rearm will reset core Blink Dagger cooldown but will not affect a Blink Dagger's broken cooldown. Blink Dagger will always blink up to 1200 distance, even if targeted outside the item's maximum range.

    Making blink dagger more clearly an initiation-only item for fighting purposes and nerfs it a bit as a general map mobility tool without increasing gold cost or making it have a mana cost again. In order to be able to blink out of a fight, you have to avoid taking any damage for the full duration of the blinker's remaining cooldown, not just dip into the trees and blink away to safety. Blinker is still hideously overpowered but has become overshadowed by glimmer cape and cheatstick; if those items got properly nerfed, it'd just be a return to the blink dagger meta again if blinker wasn't simultaneously nerfed. This nerf directly targets heroes that buy blinker for mid-fight mobility while still leaving it just as potent for blink-reliant initiators, especially Sand King and Earthshaker (probably the only two heroes in the game that are reliant on having a Blink Dagger to be able to use their ults past ~20 mins.)


    Some item-related hero changes I think need to happen:

    - Lycan minions can be slowed during Shapeshift. They still get the 650 move speed, but can now be slowed like normal units.

    This makes Necrobook less of a no-loss use for Lycan, since it's now possible to slow and kill the necrominions to cash in on their huge XP and bounties if you're chasing the Lycan away. Every single other Necrobook user has to think about when and where to summon the necrominions to avoid feeding them (getting the pair is a whopping 400 gold and XP... it's like feeding a hero kill), there is zero reason Lycan shouldn't also have to do this. Necrobook is not overpowered, but Lycan's interaction with it is, because the massive bounties for the minions is the item's primary balancing factor and currently Lycan can basically ignore it at will.

    - Anti-Mage's Mana Break is no longer a unique attack modifier. Mana Void radius reduced to 375.

    AM stands to become a lot more interesting hero if he receives the Ursa treatment. Mana Void may end up needing to be nerfed once this happens, simply because they've been constantly buffing Mana Void so that AM can actually have gameplay relevance before he's spent 25 mins afk farming and an AM that suddenly has item build options might become overpowered when combined with a very obviously (and necessarily) overpowered Mana Void. Desolator might become too strong on him, however, since Mana Break is physical damage. Probably no worse than Desolator on a Weaver, though.

    - Slark's Shadow Dance passive now has a timing window of 1.50 sec (up from 0.50 sec) before the passive effects take hold after leaving enemy vision or taking damage. Activating Shadow Dance causes the passive effects to begin instantly.

    Direct nerf to Slark's use of Shadowblade, which is probably the single most gamebreaking hero-item interaction in the game right now. Slark is supposed to be a slippery hero, but Shadowblade makes it far too easy to escape after you blunder into a bad situation, especially on top of Shadow Dance active. This change nerfs Shadowblade as a defensive item but still leaves it effective as a roaming and attack item, and also makes escaping less effortless for him while also encouraging more tactical use of active Shadow Dance. There will now be a severe (most likely fatal) penalty for brainless Shadow Dance use. Probably nerfs Slark's jungling efficiency, but he shouldn't be a strong jungler anyway, not when he's so good at killing heroes with zero farm.
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    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  3. #18883
    I don't think deso am would be very good, skadi am though...

  4. #18884
    Id rather not turn dota into hots, i like my op heroes and op items in specific situations

  5. #18885
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Item nerfs that need to happen:

    Anti-Mage's Mana Break is no longer a unique attack modifier. Mana Void radius reduced to 375.

    AM stands to become a lot more interesting hero if he receives the Ursa treatment. Mana Void may end up needing to be nerfed once this happens, simply because they've been constantly buffing Mana Void so that AM can actually have gameplay relevance before he's spent 25 mins afk farming and an AM that suddenly has item build options might become overpowered when combined with a very obviously (and necessarily) overpowered Mana Void. Desolator might become too strong on him, however, since Mana Break is physical damage. Probably no worse than Desolator on a Weaver, though.
    Nah thats the sad state AM is in really, even with the strong mana void his starting stats and his scaling is just not strong enough to man fight multiple other heroes and many carry can outright destroy him 1v1 so easily. I think he does needs the orbs to stack and he wouldnt even be close to OP.

  6. #18886
    I don't think AM needs buffs

  7. #18887
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M1r4g3 View Post
    Id rather not turn dota into hots, i like my op heroes and op items in specific situations
    The issue is that these item-hero combinations, or items themselves, are so overpowered that they negate huge chunks of gameplay. Landing a Light Strike Array or Split Earth consistently should require a lot of timing and prediction, or assistance from teammates. With Eul's, that element of gameplay - prediction, coordination, etc - goes right out the window because you can just push your cyclone button and get a guaranteed stun. With current blink dagger, you can overextend and put yourself into bad situations, but all you need to do is dip into the trees and you can blink down a cliff and you're home free - the requirement for positioning and intelligent engagements is mostly nullified once you have that item. With glimmer cape, you can overextend like crazy and suffer no punishment, because even if they dust you, you still get Huskar levels of magic resistance.

    Lycan doesn't have to think about when to use Necrobook like other heroes do because he can just run away with his ultra haste rune and there's no risk of feeding them.

    Slark doesn't have to worry about engaging intelligently because all he needs to do is press his shadowblade button and half a second later he has 522 ms and a free Heart regen going, and he doesn't have to worry about dust because he has a built-in mechanic to deal with it.

    And so on and so forth. Items should be powerful, but they should not be so powerful they allow you to ignore gameplay mechanics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  8. #18888
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Item nerfs that need to happen:
    - Glimmer Cape
    - Eul's
    - Blink Dagger
    I'd say Glimmer Cape is fine as it is now. Its got a heavy mana cost to offset its power and the stats don't provide a whole lot of benefit to the people who'd usually look to buy it, Int based supports are mostly quite fragile so the extra 20 spell resistance is mostly goes to waste - They're going to get blown up no matter what most of the time. The Attack Speed provides almost nothing of value to these kinds of Hero really. There are a couple of exceptions where Str Heroes can make decent use of it, like Spirit Breaker, but they really suffer with the Mana cost.
    The bonus spell resist is where it really shines, 55% is a lot. But by the time supports have a Glimmer carries are usually most of the way to a BKB. It can also be outclassed here by a Pipe if there's a lot of AoE spells to deal with, but that one is more situational.

    And when all is said and done, it also suffers from the same problem as Invisibility on Heroes, its very easy to counter with Dust and Wards. You may not be able to instagib someone even with Dusts, but they're still vulnrable to just being attacked to death. If you're buying it instead of a Shadow Blade or a BKB to prevent channeled ults being interrupted, dust/wards still reveals them and lets you stun.

    I'm sure I mentioned this before, but any serious nerfs to Eul's is just going to have people rushing to buy Atos as a replacement. I'm fine with that, but we then have the situation where Eul's is a totally "useless" item that no one ever buys, and I'm not okay with that. There has to be a niche for both of them in game, otherwise you might as well just remove one of them entirely. It means that any change to Eul's is going to have to push it into a different niche than just making skillshots easy to land and, unfortunately, that is probably going to require more than just a stat/cost adjustment.

    As for Blink Dagger...The problem is that its required to make up for deficiencies in a Heroes kit. Its fine saying that its only absolutely required for Sandking and Earthshaker to ult, but what about other Initiators? The only ones that can reliably get a team fight going without it are Tusk, Clockwerk, Centaur, Naga and Void. Possiably Treant and Titan, but those depend more on the other team being caught off guard than them having a reliable "go!" skill. You could also include Invoker here too, but thats very dependent on him building to initiate and most don't. It cannot be removed or nerfed to near uselessness without indirectly nerfing a lot of the Heroes that depend on it to function. I agree, it should be an initiation only item, but your proposed changed wouldn't solve much. It may stop people like Sven or WK being able to use it as a crutch mobility tool, but its also not going to prevent Brewmaster, Puck or Invoker from being able to abuse it to escape either.

    What would probably work better would be to remove the Blink Dagger as an item all together. Instead have a limited availability consumable item, for a suitable cost of course, that has the same effect as a Blink Dagger does currently. It will mean people are able to Blink around much sooner, but the fact that doing so is going to have a very real gold cost both for yourself and a potentially damaging effect on the rest of your team might be enough to deter people from spamming it as they please. It'll also mean that the more you use a Blink, the more its going to cost you, kind of like a Blinking Tax. It'll also going to mean that the total cost for a team having access to Blink is going to be, on the whole, higher but without having to pay for it all in one lump sum. So even when games are going totally horrendously for you, certain Heroes aren't going to be left none-functional.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I don't think AM needs buffs
    His big problem is that he needs a team built around him. One that will allow him the time and space to get the farm he needs and even then its a bit of a gamble when there are other Heroes who could fit in to that sort of a team better, like Medusa. AM's prefered style of play got pushed out of the meta, and has been pushed further and further out with recent changes to comeback mechanics, creep bounties and so on. Maybe he could use one or two small changes to help bring him back in, but we probably won't be seeing much of him for the forseeable future.

  9. #18889
    I got called a bad Tiny last night and I cried only for 20 minutes.

    But seriously, how would you guys even build Tiny as a "carry"? I mean, personally I have a really hard time picturing him working as a full blown carry, more of a semi-carry, but hey, when the rest of your team instalocks their heroes basically and then demands someone else plays a specific hero.

  10. #18890
    Agha, Yasha, AC, you can get in MoM, Moonshard, Dagger, build the Yasha into Manta or SnY

  11. #18891
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    The issue is that these item-hero combinations, or items themselves, are so overpowered that they negate huge chunks of gameplay. Landing a Light Strike Array or Split Earth consistently should require a lot of timing and prediction, or assistance from teammates. With Eul's, that element of gameplay - prediction, coordination, etc - goes right out the window because you can just push your cyclone button and get a guaranteed stun. With current blink dagger, you can overextend and put yourself into bad situations, but all you need to do is dip into the trees and you can blink down a cliff and you're home free - the requirement for positioning and intelligent engagements is mostly nullified once you have that item. With glimmer cape, you can overextend like crazy and suffer no punishment, because even if they dust you, you still get Huskar levels of magic resistance.

    Lycan doesn't have to think about when to use Necrobook like other heroes do because he can just run away with his ultra haste rune and there's no risk of feeding them.

    Slark doesn't have to worry about engaging intelligently because all he needs to do is press his shadowblade button and half a second later he has 522 ms and a free Heart regen going, and he doesn't have to worry about dust because he has a built-in mechanic to deal with it.

    And so on and so forth. Items should be powerful, but they should not be so powerful they allow you to ignore gameplay mechanics.

    You're ignoring the fact that those items have a cost attributed to them. They don't come free. They cost gold and an item slot. That's gold that players who don't have issues with over extending or skill shots can use to get better items.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #18892
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    I got called a bad Tiny last night and I cried only for 20 minutes.

    But seriously, how would you guys even build Tiny as a "carry"? I mean, personally I have a really hard time picturing him working as a full blown carry, more of a semi-carry, but hey, when the rest of your team instalocks their heroes basically and then demands someone else plays a specific hero.
    ... how could you possibly struggle to see Tiny working as a carry? He gets like 300 free base damage and bonus building damage from his ult + Agh's. Treads-Agh's-AC-Crit and you can go toe-to-toe with just about anyone.

  13. #18893
    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    ... how could you possibly struggle to see Tiny working as a carry? He gets like 300 free base damage and bonus building damage from his ult + Agh's. Treads-Agh's-AC-Crit and you can go toe-to-toe with just about anyone.
    Because he has no abilities really to support that I guess? Like, I can see how he could be a threat, but like, he has nothing like PA or Riki to stay glued on someone or maybe escape even, or the ability to kill someone quickly unless you get a huge amount of farm, since you'd need the attack speed since his is rather slow, but that causes him the damage loss if you rush attack speed over like Aghs. I just can't see a team picking Tiny and saying "Thats our core carry", he'd do better at just giving kills to a team mate I think.

    Granted, maybe he is picked as a core carry, but I don't think I've ever seen that, usually he's an initiator if anything.

  14. #18894
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Because he has no abilities really to support that I guess? Like, I can see how he could be a threat, but like, he has nothing like PA or Riki to stay glued on someone or maybe escape even, or the ability to kill someone quickly unless you get a huge amount of farm, since you'd need the attack speed since his is rather slow, but that causes him the damage loss if you rush attack speed over like Aghs. I just can't see a team picking Tiny and saying "Thats our core carry", he'd do better at just giving kills to a team mate I think.

    Granted, maybe he is picked as a core carry, but I don't think I've ever seen that, usually he's an initiator if anything.
    I mean idk man you must have never watched a game of pro DotA in your life or something. Tiny isn't even picked to manfight other people in the first place; he's picked with Io to fuck people up with Relocate-AvaToss in between farming enough items that he can turn rax into dust in the span of seconds.

    He's a core. Shouldn't be played as anything else in a serious game. End of story. His supposed inability to "stay glued on people" is irrelevant (and in reality not an issue since you almost always get Blink on a Tiny that has to do any sort of fighting) when you pick him with Io and Relocate on top of people and pick him to slay buildings rather than heroes in the first place.

  15. #18895
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post

    His big problem is that he needs a team built around him. One that will allow him the time and space to get the farm he needs and even then its a bit of a gamble when there are other Heroes who could fit in to that sort of a team better, like Medusa. AM's prefered style of play got pushed out of the meta, and has been pushed further and further out with recent changes to comeback mechanics, creep bounties and so on. Maybe he could use one or two small changes to help bring him back in, but we probably won't be seeing much of him for the forseeable future.
    AM is still very strong early, mostly immune to spells which are the driving force behind early game kills, and blink lets him ignore a lot of other early game power houses (omnislash, slark, slard). It just be time for the days of vanguard AM to return. I used to pick him in 6.83 and go offlane to shut down Jugg pickers all the time. Hard for heroes like Jugg to operate without any mana.

    @Tiny
    Is this the time where I make a reddit thread saying "I'm 18th best Tiny in the world according to dotabuff, here are my tips!"
    I don't think you should rush Aghs anymore on Tiny. The days of going fast Aghs and taking towers and farming jungle are over. Build quick attack speed and kill people early abusing the damage from Grow. You should probably have at least 2 core items before you consider an Aghs. The bonus it gives you is very overvalued for how much it costs and it's not uncommon for me to be in games where enemy Tiny has blink Aghs and a hyperstone and is completely irrelevant in team fights after his stun is gone.

  16. #18896
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    You're ignoring the fact that those items have a cost attributed to them. They don't come free. They cost gold and an item slot. That's gold that players who don't have issues with over extending or skill shots can use to get better items.
    You are right, throw here mana costs of items and they are quite balanced. Eul's scepter mana cost is 175, quite a number in early and mid game. In case of Lina, she has to have 655 - 1130 mana depending on here levels to pop someone up with her Eul's combo. So Nyx mana burning her will give her a lot of problems. As well as mid OD. Or Silencer throwing last world on her (in this case i doubt that she will ever use the scepter offensively, she will need it to dispel global silence)

    It also would be nice to see more stuff to deal with offensive cyclone, not just Pudges hook. But outside of lack of things to deal with cyclone - there is plenty of things to deal with Lina or with targeted ally.

    Things i wouldn't mind be nerfed on the scepter is item cost and active range. Also i wouldn't mind making laguna blade disjointable for peepz to juke it with shit like glimmers cape or native stealth. Or her MS boost gone.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    @Tiny
    Is this the time where I make a reddit thread saying "I'm 18th best Tiny in the world according to dotabuff, here are my tips!"
    I don't think you should rush Aghs anymore on Tiny. The days of going fast Aghs and taking towers and farming jungle are over. Build quick attack speed and kill people early abusing the damage from Grow. You should probably have at least 2 core items before you consider an Aghs. The bonus it gives you is very overvalued for how much it costs and it's not uncommon for me to be in games where enemy Tiny has blink Aghs and a hyperstone and is completely irrelevant in team fights after his stun is gone.
    Is it again worth it to go hyper/ribs buriza then?
    Last edited by Charge me Doctor; 2015-06-27 at 08:20 PM.
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    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  17. #18897
    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    I mean idk man you must have never watched a game of pro DotA in your life or something. Tiny isn't even picked to manfight other people in the first place; he's picked with Io to fuck people up with Relocate-AvaToss in between farming enough items that he can turn rax into dust in the span of seconds.

    He's a core. Shouldn't be played as anything else in a serious game. End of story. His supposed inability to "stay glued on people" is irrelevant (and in reality not an issue since you almost always get Blink on a Tiny that has to do any sort of fighting) when you pick him with Io and Relocate on top of people and pick him to slay buildings rather than heroes in the first place.
    Well, I've seen pro games, just not a single one with Tiny. But yeah with Io he could wreck I'd imagine, sadly I didn't have an Io. Although it sounds like my mistake probably was focusing Aghs from the suggestions so far, and by the time I had anything, Windranger would shackle me, ult me, and I'd die.

  18. #18898
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    You're ignoring the fact that those items have a cost attributed to them. They don't come free. They cost gold and an item slot. That's gold that players who don't have issues with over extending or skill shots can use to get better items.
    The gold cost is irrelevant, and so is the slot cost. These items are also "best in slot" items for the heroes that have those item-hero interactions. Lina will never sell her cheatstick. Slark will never sell his Shadowblade, instead upgrading it to Silver Edge eventually. These items are quite simply the best possible use of that gold, for that hero.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    You are right, throw here mana costs of items and they are quite balanced. Eul's scepter mana cost is 175, quite a number in early and mid game. In case of Lina, she has to have 655 - 1130 mana depending on here levels to pop someone up with her Eul's combo. So Nyx mana burning her will give her a lot of problems. As well as mid OD. Or Silencer throwing last world on her (in this case i doubt that she will ever use the scepter offensively, she will need it to dispel global silence)

    It also would be nice to see more stuff to deal with offensive cyclone, not just Pudges hook. But outside of lack of things to deal with cyclone - there is plenty of things to deal with Lina or with targeted ally.

    Things i wouldn't mind be nerfed on the scepter is item cost and active range. Also i wouldn't mind making laguna blade disjointable for peepz to juke it with shit like glimmers cape or native stealth. Or her MS boost gone.
    Mana cost is completely irrelevant to an INT hero. It doesn't matter how much it costs if it guarantees you a kill without effort. That's part of why Storm Spirit is so broken - it doesn't matter how much zip costs if the person he jumps on is dead before they can fight back.

    The mana cost increase only nerfed it for heroes that didn't really buy Eul's much to begin with - like if you wanted to try buying it on a Sven or a Tiny or a Panda or something as a utility item for your team. For those heroes, Eul's is no longer an option because it costs more than the 10 INT gives in mana.

    But for SF, Lina, and basically any other caster hero? They don't give two shits about the mana cost, so the mana cost nerf was entirely pointless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  19. #18899
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Well, I've seen pro games, just not a single one with Tiny. But yeah with Io he could wreck I'd imagine, sadly I didn't have an Io. Although it sounds like my mistake probably was focusing Aghs from the suggestions so far, and by the time I had anything, Windranger would shackle me, ult me, and I'd die.
    When the enemy team has many cc... bkb? I mean im not sure how anyone could not see tiny as a carry. You deal 300 damage without items jesus. You just get 2 core items with attack speed, then eventually aghs... you wont have to stick to target all game, because youll cleave half their team every swing. Plus Tiny has the choice to play Rat too, one of your attack speed item can just be manta style. Nobody kills building faster then aghs/manta tiny.

  20. #18900
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Mana cost is completely irrelevant to an INT hero. It doesn't matter how much it costs if it guarantees you a kill without effort. That's part of why Storm Spirit is so broken - it doesn't matter how much zip costs if the person he jumps on is dead before they can fight back.

    The mana cost increase only nerfed it for heroes that didn't really buy Eul's much to begin with - like if you wanted to try buying it on a Sven or a Tiny or a Panda or something as a utility item for your team. For those heroes, Eul's is no longer an option because it costs more than the 10 INT gives in mana.

    But for SF, Lina, and basically any other caster hero? They don't give two shits about the mana cost, so the mana cost nerf was entirely pointless.
    How so? Even if you are int hero, you still have limited mana pool and often very slow mana regen (compared to how much mana you leak out when do a combo). Int heroes do not get +1k mana for free so they can spam spells. If it costs 700 mana out of your 700 mana to pop someone up - you'd better to have these 700 mana. Simple mana burn, even mana break and this point, or defensive light strike array will fuck you up. To make it more simple - you have to walk from base, kill someone with your imba combo and go back to base to refill mana. But it never happens (and not because AM/Nyx/KotL/Silencer/Pugna are not popular).

    Granted, you have a cheat for this - the bottle, cheap refillable source of 210 mana. It costs just 700 gold and solves all your mana issues in early/mid game. Throw arcane boots on top of that - mana is not a problem anymore for burst-heavy characters. Maybe we should look in this direction instead? How it easy and cheap became to solve your mana problems in early/mid game (and these problems, at least for me, was one of main features of the game).

    In case of SS - he is broken because mana cost of his "no range" ult is insignificant (thanks to bottle) and it gives you huge benefits (invulnerability and damage boost). It has nothing to do with him being OOM after killing someone. If it actually happens he most likely dies of enemy teammates, Lina is quite immune to this thanks to shitton of MS.

    SF is completely different story. Without items (windwalk/cyclone) SF literally can't do max damage with his ult. It's quite fair (except of the scepters range) to use it this way, same as for Lina. It's quite an investment both gold and mana cost to get what you get from this item. The only moment it gets irrelevant is when 175 mana cost becomes irrelevant. And it's too easy to do with very cheap items. That's part of a problem i see in this, not players using item as the item was designed to be used. Cheap mana regen items is one thing, cheap reusable mana potions is another. I think this problem was overlooked and it has to be addressed. But i don't think it will be addressed, at least not in a single patch.

    And it's quite funny that this whole discussion rolls around burst character reliably picking off enemies who run around solo. Isn't its, like, their whole purpose? Because i can't believe that Lina can go 1v2, cyclone someone, stand there for 2 seconds, throw combo killing one of enemies, while second enemy does... Does what exactly? Just stands there? Can't he, like, smack her? Or CC her?
    Last edited by Charge me Doctor; 2015-06-27 at 09:47 PM.
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