1. #19801
    i actually think in the majority of pub games maxing poison is better

  2. #19802
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by LiiLoSNK View Post
    "95% of times other skills are better" pretty much implies that there's 1 way the hero should be played most of the time. Which is dumb. Really dumb.

    I'm not using one specific situation. I just listed an incredibly common situation. Roaming, ganking, and harassing are all doable on a dazzle. This is not "one situation". You say "You never want to max poison touch first?" like you have no grasp of how the hero works. You can't think of one situation where having a stun on an already overpowered teamfighter would be a good thing? Weird how I commonly see this type of play from dazzles. They swing by mid @ 4-5 with only 2/3 PT, toss a long ranged poison touch, then his mid is free to dive until a tp is forced or he kills the enemy mid with grave to prevent anyone from dying. It's a massive slow/dot that can make the difference between a kill and a survival.

    Please tell me how I've contradicted myself. I'm pretty sure it's just you not understanding how to read.
    there are countless situation while ganking while your heal may be more effective (combined with any form of lockdown), stun/immobilize the other hero walk to them while autoattacking witht your ally and use your wave. So you saying: skill heal when farming/pushing, skill touch when ganking doesn't imply you always do that in those situations? I can make up a ton of situations where you are ganking where wave is more effective than touch.

    So you can imply things of my posts but not vice versa? kinda hypocrite

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Don't need to heal when enemy is dead, simple truth of DotA.

    I'll be fair, though, I know why the pros skip poison touch. Mostly, it's because at their level the laning phase means nothing. It always amuses me to listen to the casters going "X is beating Y so hard mid! 42 CS to 28! So much outfarm!" Yeah, that's like a couple hundred gold, it's nothing. The first 10 minutes of the game are largely meaningless in the professional setting. Even if you could push out the enemy lane completely as Dazzle, they would just roam, team fights would happen, a couple of kills and they'd regain everything you pressured them out of. It's just the nature of 6.84.

    With that said though, the same is not true in pubs. Being a passive support and just sitting back and healing your carry as he tries to fight an otherwise 1v1 or 1v2 lane is a great way to get steamrolled. Professional teams have the composure and teamwork to come back from slow starts and make team fights successful, pubs definitely do not. A Dazzle without his only nuke is just begging to get shit on by a superior hero like Phoenix. Most offlaners would have no issue 1v1ing a Dazzle trying to harass with no poison touch, and if you pull your carry to make it a 1v2 they just denied you farm without even going near the creeps. There's a reason the pros spend 99% of their time AFK in the trees as dazzle.
    that few hundred gold is nothing? it might be the difference between having treads or normal boots, mek or no mek. magic stick or not. can go on and on. From here on i stop replying to you because you think those 'minor' things dont impact the game at all, while it may have a huge impact if a gank/teamfight fails or succeeds. The difference between wave dmg and poison touch is also that u cant tango out of lethal dmg cause wave is instantly and touch is not.

    Dont need to heal when enemy is dead? what about the other 4 enemies who might respond to the gank? You think wave is only used to heal your carry? jesus.....i explained before that i use the wave to stay at higher health and thus i can harras more because im not in risk of dying or something. 99% of the time in the trees by pros? pay attention please, what most of them do is this: at the start they try to box a hero out (in case of a solo hero on safe lane). When the wave is too far pushed or when it is not possible to harras anymore they go to jungle and pull, preferably pull 2nd camp as well.

    Goodbye sir. #tunnelvision
    Last edited by mmoc1c47fd51d5; 2015-08-10 at 02:55 PM.

  3. #19803
    It's saying there are situations where both are viable and situations where 1 skill is often more valuable than the other. I was implying that you were making up rubbish figures like 95% to backup your own opinions, literally seconds after you just told someone else that they don't know how to use stats.
    "I'm not stuck in the trench, I'm maintaining my rating."

  4. #19804
    Quote Originally Posted by M1r4g3 View Post
    i actually think in the majority of pub games maxing poison is better
    Personally i think it is better not to pick Dazzle in Pubs at all, unless you mute at least 2 people on your team who seem to have unrealistic expectations about the range of Shallow Grave.

    Main reason why i stopped playing Dazzle, some people stand somewhere totally out of position, get nuked by a Lina combo within 1-2secs and then comes the obligatory "GRAVE?!" comment in chat.

    General problem if you pick a supp with defensive skills, same shit on Abaddon, 3 people get nuked / stunned, 2 people will call you retarded for not healing / shielding them.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2015-08-10 at 03:02 PM.

  5. #19805
    Quote Originally Posted by stickzz View Post
    Goodbye sir. #tunnelvision
    I look forward to your long list of replays of expert, professional level supporting. I am ready to learn how to play Dazzle, please teach me, stickzz-sama!

  6. #19806
    Quote Originally Posted by M1r4g3 View Post
    i actually think in the majority of pub games maxing poison is better
    Because you have a better chance of getting something out of it most of the time, like harass/kills/space, rather than putting all of your eggs in the carry babysit basket. If I'm 5 spotting dazzle, I'd rather have wave/grave for deathballs when a lesh and undying is on my team. If I'm trying to shut down an offlane, especially a melee offlane like clock/timber, I'm gonna poison touch the hell out of them. Any lane you swing into can benefit from it quite a bit.
    "I'm not stuck in the trench, I'm maintaining my rating."

  7. #19807
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by LiiLoSNK View Post
    It's saying there are situations where both are viable and situations where 1 skill is often more valuable than the other. I was implying that you were making up rubbish figures like 95% to backup your own opinions, literally seconds after you just told someone else that they don't know how to use stats.
    You started this discussion by saying that i said there is only one build. I never said that, thats what u make out of it.

    and you say: when you are ganking you take touch = when ganking you 100% take touch
    when farming/pushing you take heal = when farming/pushing you 100% take heal
    Just cause you leave out the % doesn't mean you arent doing the same thing. You are implying on my posts and I do on yours. The world spins 'round and 'round.
    Difference is im not a hypocrite about it. Stop flaming me for the same thing you are doing.

    Shall we stop it now?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I look forward to your long list of replays of expert, professional level supporting. I am ready to learn how to play Dazzle, please teach me, stickzz-sama!
    never said im some kind of expert, what I do know is that i take more into consideration than damage/killing.
    Don't know how you can even say that few hundred gold doesn't matter....

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Personally i think it is better not to pick Dazzle in Pubs at all, unless you mute at least 2 people on your team who seem to have unrealistic expectations about the range of Shallow Grave.

    Main reason why i stopped playing Dazzle, some people stand somewhere totally out of position, get nuked by a Lina combo within 1-2secs and then comes the obligatory "GRAVE?!" comment in chat.

    General problem if you pick a supp with defensive skills, same shit on Abaddon, 3 people get nuked / stunned, 2 people will call you retarded for not healing / shielding them.
    agreed, they seem to think that you have haste 24/7, unlimited mana and global spell range. Most often they just do that to justify them screwing up/being out of position. I much prefer WD over Dazzle.

  8. #19808
    Quote Originally Posted by LiiLoSNK View Post
    Because you have a better chance of getting something out of it most of the time, like harass/kills/space, rather than putting all of your eggs in the carry babysit basket. If I'm 5 spotting dazzle, I'd rather have wave/grave for deathballs when a lesh and undying is on my team. If I'm trying to shut down an offlane, especially a melee offlane like clock/timber, I'm gonna poison touch the hell out of them. Any lane you swing into can benefit from it quite a bit.
    We all know how reliable pub carries are and how most of them know how to cancel the backswing(not sure if thats whats it called?) and not just click once and follow auto attack so you can weave the enemy !

  9. #19809
    I said it was situational then proceeded to list said situations. I didn't make up any percentages and I was never bold enough to say something like "Never max this spell first ever", like you did with PT.

    This conversation is dumb and feels way too dota101. Skill builds, like items, are situational. If you're gonna make a 95% statement, say it about something that's actually a common standard. Not about something that high ranking dazzles have been proving you wrong by doing for years.
    Last edited by LiiLoSNK; 2015-08-10 at 03:20 PM.
    "I'm not stuck in the trench, I'm maintaining my rating."

  10. #19810
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by LiiLoSNK View Post
    I said it was situational then proceeded to list said situations. I didn't make up any percentages and I was never bold enough to say something like "Never max this spell first ever", like you did with PT.

    This conversation is dumb and feels way too dota101. Skill builds, like items, are situational. If you're gonna make a 95% statement, say it about something that's actually a common standard. Not about something that high ranking dazzles have been proving you wrong by doing for years.
    You did make up percentages you just didn't write it in %. ill just copy paste since you completely seem to ignore eveything that isn't in your alley.
    and you say: when you are ganking you take touch = when ganking you 100% take touch
    when farming/pushing you take heal = when farming/pushing you 100% take heal

    glad we agree on disagreeing

  11. #19811
    Seems like you're interpreting the words wrong on purpose again. I mention situations where each spell will more commonly have an advantage. You saying that maxing pt will never have an advantage is why people are thinking you're views are off.

    Not worth arguing if you're just gonna keep purposely missing what I'm saying. If you say that dazzle is not a situational hero, then I'll just take your word for it and keep stomping pros while playing the hero wrong.
    "I'm not stuck in the trench, I'm maintaining my rating."

  12. #19812
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by LiiLoSNK View Post
    Seems like you're interpreting the words wrong on purpose again. I mention situations where each spell will more commonly have an advantage. You saying that maxing pt will never have an advantage is why people are thinking you're views are off.

    Not worth arguing if you're just gonna keep purposely missing what I'm saying. If you say that dazzle is not a situational hero, then I'll just take your word for it and keep stomping pros while playing the hero wrong.
    thats what you said, thats what it means. its not me interpreting it wrong, its you writing it wrong.
    btw you forgot '#thuglife' at the end

  13. #19813
    5% of me chose the thug life

    95% of the thug life chose me.
    "I'm not stuck in the trench, I'm maintaining my rating."

  14. #19814
    Why are we even paying attention to stickz? He literally hasn't provided any argument from what I've seen beyond "his other skills are better", while Lysah counterargues by pointing out that Poison Touch is really fucking strong. I mean, at that point this topic should be over, but no, other skills are better is his repeat argument.

    That's a dumb conversation that should die in a fire.

    Also I'm sad I missed most of the mainstage of Ti5. I was busy farming in Diablo 3 and forgot we were so far into Ti5, fuck.

  15. #19815
    Deleted
    if i havent provided any argument then read again. I was talking about his other skills, mana drainage it costs when you use both, ganking, farming all kinds of situations. We know you are a friend of Lysah but try to make it less obvious.

  16. #19816
    seriously guys, hero with bad win rate at ti = shit hero confirmed. If pros maxed poison touch dazzle wouldn't have 30% win rate for sure.

    qop dazzle witch doctor sf naga razor undying wisp lesh need a buff or pros need to learn to play dem


    real talk, can't wait for the shuffles. heard teams have like a month or so before the "season" of majors start
    Last edited by EqualWin; 2015-08-10 at 06:34 PM.
    "We live in a world where a style of play that uses posession and passing to try and make spaces is made fun of.
    While a style of play where a team sits back for 90 minutes and breaks away in 1v1 situations is respected."
    - Ronald Koeman.

  17. #19817
    Quote Originally Posted by EqualWin View Post
    qop dazzle witch doctor sf naga razor undying wisp lesh
    I know you think you're being cute, but most of those heroes could use buffs, yes, if you remove the ones that actually have 50% winrate or better from the list.

  18. #19818
    i dont think any of those heroes need a buff

    - - - Updated - - -

    icefrog probably will nerf the op ones, lesh bounty storm pl gyro etc.. and buff the one that were ignored, that's what he usually does.


    also its 3 weeks til teams are locked for the majors.

    will secret disband/reshuffle ?
    Last edited by EqualWin; 2015-08-10 at 07:02 PM.
    "We live in a world where a style of play that uses posession and passing to try and make spaces is made fun of.
    While a style of play where a team sits back for 90 minutes and breaks away in 1v1 situations is respected."
    - Ronald Koeman.

  19. #19819
    Has anyone actually played Support Morph again, before 6.84 this seemed to become popular but then vanished.

    Would love to see some moves with Support and Agha, totally situational a draft dependant but i imagine a fully STR morphed Morphling who turns into a 2nd Huskar must be fun.

  20. #19820
    Quote Originally Posted by EqualWin View Post
    will secret disband/reshuffle ?
    https://twitter.com/s4dota

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