1. #19841
    Deleted
    This is indeed the mid patch. Mid has the most impact and requires the most skill right now to carry when you're at your true MMR (when you can't just roll people over by being just better).

    On another note, I hate games where you build a super strong lead but you can't finish the game and the enemy team just runs around as 5. Those games just make me want to kill myself.

  2. #19842
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    On another note, I hate games where you build a super strong lead but you can't finish the game and the enemy team just runs around as 5. Those games just make me want to kill myself.
    so 6.83 pmuch?


    idk I actually like this patch, all the mids can be deal with.. yea even lesh/bs arent half as cancerous as 6.83 was. it was troll/sniper everygame and you couldn't end it cuz 1 teamfight lost and they would've the same networth as you, it was worse than playing vs techies atm.

    being support this patch isn't that bad, dazzle winterwyvern bounty hunter es r really good. and you can do more to help than before having good supports is the key to win atm, buying glimmer cape and solar crest for ur cores. yeah we've storm now, but before it was sniper, tinker that made supports players kill themselves.

    I can't believe anyone would prefer 6.83 over this patch, this patch is okay and there were meta heroes all the patches people prefer to pick them but you can always go with w.e and still win.

    I am too high to write correctly atm

    then again, we're like 4-5? months into this patch and we need another patch soon.
    Last edited by EqualWin; 2015-09-12 at 12:39 AM.
    "We live in a world where a style of play that uses posession and passing to try and make spaces is made fun of.
    While a style of play where a team sits back for 90 minutes and breaks away in 1v1 situations is respected."
    - Ronald Koeman.

  3. #19843
    Deleted
    In pubs, any mid is easily dealt with. Facing Sniper was 100% more annoying than facing Leshrac or Lina on lane. The two things that are cancer about this patch are Huskar and Techies. The rest I can deal with fine.

  4. #19844
    Stop picking heroes that Husk counters :P
    Hero is paper against anyone with pure damage or hard right clicks. Slardar for example. I admit, the problem with those heroes is that they aren't mid heroes, so you're setting yourself up for a guaranteed loss anyway when your mid blows.



    I still don't see how you can say the current mid fotms aren't as bad as troll/sniper. Troll is a melee hero who can only right click, that's all he does, and he needed a LOT of farm to be able to take on a team. Sniper was the same way, extremely fragile, sure he had huge DPS but he still ran around with 1400 health late game, any hero that could jump on him (lol le storm spirit) could feed off him pretty easily. The issue with 6.83 was that it was the comeback gold patch, which meant Sniper could hold high ground forever, THAT was the issue with the hero. High ground defense no longer exists in 6.84, Leshrac runs into your team and your core towers and kills all of you in seconds and there's nothing you can do about it because you didn't pick Leshrac.

    And I don't even think Leshrac is at the top of this meta, he's just the best example of "heroes that are better in every single imaginable way than their alternatives." Overpowered mid/nukers/gankers > overpowered carrys. Right clicks aren't cancer, being global'd is cancer. Sniper and Troll were also both shit at farming, Leshrac/storm/TA/QOP are gods. You usually had ~30 minutes to have fun before the 6.83 meta crushed the game, I am eating plenty of losses by 10-15 minutes in 6.84 because their mid has already snowballed to 1v5 status. We NEVER got raxed at 18 minutes in .83, it happens every other game in .84. Also, since high ground is as hard as ever to convincingly win, and the comeback gold still exists, most teams will secure the win in the first 20 minutes and then spend the next 35 ganking and farming until they know they can't possibly lose, which means you have to suffer through every loss twice as long as you used to.

    The only thing I can think of that was worse about .83 is that it was the lane control patch. Lane control has pretty much evaporated now. Most common mid picks simply nuke down the wave and go jungle in the downtime or secure runes, which means even if you get counterpicked and outlaned you can farm under your tower 90% of the time, where Sniper would sit on his side of the river and deny every creep instead, ruining your game. It's also never been easier to offlane, most safe lanes run solo now with roaming supports and jungles so you can even farm, at worst you can get experience because zoning has all but disappeared since trilanes are dead. Early game is honestly completely meaningless in pubs, as long as you don't outright get shit on you can come back with good fights and farming patterns. This makes 6.84 much "easier" and more "enjoyable" for most laners, as sitting at your tower watching the enemy trilane pull and deny every creep was, indeed, quite boring.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2015-09-12 at 01:09 AM.

  5. #19845
    troll shit at farming? lmao, he could flash farm well ez roshans and stack ancients, also did u already forget the perma bash? he having a blink/sb and ulting and you couldn't do shit. plus skady+syy debuffs.


    depends on which items sniper went, phase mom syy skady bkb. he'd be pretty tanky also gl 1v1 him with skady+syy debuff you couldn't even move. add a maelstrom for flash farm, or well you didnt even need to farm just defend highground get few kills and u'll have the same farm the enemy am.

    and I disagree right clickers are just as cancer, why? beause they only have to right click.
    "We live in a world where a style of play that uses posession and passing to try and make spaces is made fun of.
    While a style of play where a team sits back for 90 minutes and breaks away in 1v1 situations is respected."
    - Ronald Koeman.

  6. #19846
    Deleted
    Huskar is always last picked in ranked.

    Troll was annoying because the moment you were in his melee range you would never win the fight. Troll just needed to get close to someone and that person was dead. And Sniper was just cancer in the mid lane. Laning against that hero was like laning against an OD when he wasn't nerfed. You couldn't win no matter what. Lina, Leshrac, QoP, TA are all beatable mid.

  7. #19847
    also lets not forget jug, jakiro.. ogre venge in 6.83 iirc
    "We live in a world where a style of play that uses posession and passing to try and make spaces is made fun of.
    While a style of play where a team sits back for 90 minutes and breaks away in 1v1 situations is respected."
    - Ronald Koeman.

  8. #19848
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Huskar is always last picked in ranked.

    Troll was annoying because the moment you were in his melee range you would never win the fight. Troll just needed to get close to someone and that person was dead. And Sniper was just cancer in the mid lane. Laning against that hero was like laning against an OD when he wasn't nerfed. You couldn't win no matter what. Lina, Leshrac, QoP, TA are all beatable mid.
    Yeah, but Troll still had to get into melee range. Leshrac can nuke your entire team from across the screen, Storm and QOP get into melee range instantly. Bloodseeker has a 12 second "fuck you" spell that he can cast from across the screen. That's the issue with these heroes and this meta, there's no avoiding them or outplaying them. They are GOING to do the stuff that they do, all you can hope to do is survive it and do even more bullshit to them. All of these cancer heroes can also disengage from bad fights, Troll eating a viper or SD ult had to sit there and fight or die for the most part, though him having 500 movespeed with phase and SY was semi retarded, it's still not the 800 movespeed cyka gets and it's still not ball lightning. Notice I don't cry about Leshrac or Lina much, that's because you can actually stomp those heroes into the ground. I never cried about troll or sniper, other than the fact that it was boring to see them every game, but I accept that sheep will always flock to the heroes the pros think are good. The difference is, this patch, the pros are absolutely right, the heroes that are on top are absolutely WAY stronger than the rest.

    I've seen a decent amount of husk lately, but not near the level of storm/lesh/BS. Those heroes are 100% or damn close, husk is like 30% or so for me probably.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2015-09-12 at 01:22 AM.

  9. #19849
    I didn't know people complained about supports. What was so bad about venge/jakiro? I understand ogre being annoying but were you really getting worked up about swaps?

  10. #19850
    Deleted
    You haven't faced the true Huskar pickers yet. Those who know when to pick him when you got nothing to deal with it and then can actually play the hero.

    Bloodseeker is actually so easy to deal with. He dies way too fast with a badly used Q on himself. The only thing cancer about him is laning aginst him when everyone on your team stays at 30% HP.

    Leshrac and QoP and Storm can be shut down on lane because of their inherent squishiness. Leshrac still needs a Bloodstone before he gets tanky and you can easily shut him down before that and most mid players (anyone below 6k) don't know how to come back. Storm and QoP same thing. If you catch a QoP that is underfarmed she just dies. Same with Storm and Leshrac and Lina. A Troll? Nope. If he somehow manages to get to you you're dead, even if you got 5k gold on him. I remember playing QoP and I had an Orchid i think against a Troll with like Phase Boots and I thought "hey, let's just Blink, Orchid, Scream, Ult him and hit him to death". Nope. Troll survives with like 100 HP, slows you, runs at you and kills you cause you miss all your attacks and get stunned.

  11. #19851
    Quote Originally Posted by Trape View Post
    I didn't know people complained about supports. What was so bad about venge/jakiro? I understand ogre being annoying but were you really getting worked up about swaps?
    ogre was cancer, venge well, she has everything and annoying swap she wasn't that bad but i am saying she was really good.

    jakiro offlane was annoying af, support not that much unless he farms.

    - - - Updated - - -

    bs is cancer but if you pick heroes like tiny lina qop etc (with burst) also LC wk r pgood vs him.
    "We live in a world where a style of play that uses posession and passing to try and make spaces is made fun of.
    While a style of play where a team sits back for 90 minutes and breaks away in 1v1 situations is respected."
    - Ronald Koeman.

  12. #19852
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    So it's Reborn now...
    How do you like it actually?
    Reborn is doo doo butter.

    Well, the graphics are nice now, but like, I don't like the interface of Reborn honestly that much...and the bugs nonstop like people said. I also haven't had a game yet where someone hasn't abandoned.

  13. #19853
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Leshrac and QoP and Storm can be shut down on lane because of their inherent squishiness. Leshrac still needs a Bloodstone before he gets tanky and you can easily shut him down before that and most mid players (anyone below 6k) don't know how to come back. Storm and QoP same thing. If you catch a QoP that is underfarmed she just dies. Same with Storm and Leshrac and Lina. A Troll? Nope. If he somehow manages to get to you you're dead, even if you got 5k gold on him. I remember playing QoP and I had an Orchid i think against a Troll with like Phase Boots and I thought "hey, let's just Blink, Orchid, Scream, Ult him and hit him to death". Nope. Troll survives with like 100 HP, slows you, runs at you and kills you cause you miss all your attacks and get stunned.
    I've literally never seen a Leshrac get shut down. Same with Storm, it's too easy to simply go hide in the jungle, those heroes can clear every camp out and nuke every creep wave you try to push, if you don't have a hero like clock that can jump on them you're never going to kill them unless they overextend.

    I mean, you can make the same argument about literally any hero. "If they have no items or levels they die easy." Okay, yeah, we can agree on that. How do you propose you stop the best farming heroes in the game that are also extremely mobile from doing so? Ganking jungle isn't really an option when your team loses one or more lanes and they can win the team fight just as easily as you can. You must get much, much better allies than I do, in my shitcan pub league people can barely last hit. People get uninterrupted jungles and still somehow can't farm faster than 150 gpm.

    Look at this
    http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1786695945
    I finally picked a real hero and look at that, we won. Storm got predictably WRECKED mid and our seeker somehow lost jungle against himself, but there's a reason BH is the highest winrate hero in the game. Just sad that this is what it takes to win a game of dota now.

    The secret to Troll was to simply stop trying to 1v1 him. Yes, he's the absolute king of duels, we all know that and knew that the entire patch. You deserve to die if you intentionally blink near him. You can simply...not blink near him when it's a 1v1 situation and you have no backup or stun. The same isn't true if the roles are reversed, you can't simply not blink on top of Storm or QoP or euls lesh or lina, they initiate on you and since two of them can teleport across the map and the other two have 500 movespeed, it's pretty hard to avoid.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2015-09-12 at 03:02 AM.

  14. #19854
    Deleted
    I shut down Leshracs and Storms every day. By shut down I mean them having like Brown boots at level 8-9. They just die if they fight. 15-16 min Bloodstone is good for Storm. If shut down he maybe gets it at 21-25 minutes. That's plenty of time to deal with him. By 16 min you can have Blink Desolator on TA. What can a Leshrac with Bottle, Arcane Boots (needs it for sustain/Point Booster do against that? He literally dies in 2 hits.

    People don't jungle. When are you going to understand that.
    Last edited by mmoc9f3c8526e6; 2015-09-12 at 03:15 AM.

  15. #19855
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    I shut down Leshracs and Storms every day. By shut down I mean them having like Brown boots at level 8-9. They just die if they fight.

    People don't jungle. When are you going to understand that.
    Watch this game, Storm got "shut down," he didn't have his first item (Orchid) until like...30 minutes? But it didn't matter. Admittedly, track gold is a huge part of that, but the fact remains that he ended up more farmed than anyone on the enemy team (except their whiteknight lesh picker) 10 minutes later. And, honestly, the only reason it took him so long to get Orchid was because our jungle was being farmed out by seeker the whole time, so he literally had nowhere to farm.

    EU really must be a different world, because this is literally how every game goes for me:
    Two mids clash, one wins, one loses. Winner pushes t1s with his team and tries to gank. Loser farms jungle and catches up. Now both are gods and everyone else cries and begs for mercy in team fights. Whichever hard carry has farmed more at this point usually wins the game for his team after the mids have finished slaughtering ~3 heroes each by themselves each before finally being overwhelmed by the sheer numbers. "Shutting down" hasn't existed in several patches, people can always find farm. In fact, since creep gold was nerfed, it is MORE MEANINGLESS THAN EVER to win your lane. Team fights matter so much more, and objectives. It's also why BH is so absurd, every gold mechanic change is another buff to track.

    Having been the highest and lower MMR on my team throughout this experience the past few days and played with a range frm 4200 to 5600 MMR in NA servers, I can safely say that the difference between 4500 and 5500 is virtually nonexistant. 80% of the players at this MMR know how to find farm, and as long as they aren't making outright mistakes, i.e. tilting, will get items and you cannot possibly coordinate a public team well enough to stop it. It would take repeated smoke ganks and extremely aggressive warding and counter warding to make that magic happen, and if you can spam smoke all you want, nobody will come, they'd rather farm. Some heroes are much slower at farming, and will fall massively behind and never catch up if they have a bad early game. None of those heroes get picked.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2015-09-12 at 03:17 AM.

  16. #19856
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Having been the highest and lower MMR on my team throughout this experience the past few days and played with a range frm 4200 to 5600 MMR in NA servers, I can safely say that the difference between 4500 and 5500 is virtually nonexistant. 80% of the players at this MMR know how to find farm, and as long as they aren't making outright mistakes, i.e. tilting, will get items and you cannot possibly coordinate a public team well enough to stop it. It would take repeated smoke ganks and extremely aggressive warding and counter warding to make that magic happen, and if you can spam smoke all you want, nobody will come, they'd rather farm. Some heroes are much slower at farming, and will fall massively behind and never catch up if they have a bad early game. None of those heroes get picked.
    The difference between 5600 and 4200 is massive. I don't know what you're smoking. I've played through the 4k bracket and people just die in this bracket. The most notable thing about 4k players is that they get caught out way too often for no purpose. They don't have a purpose while playing. As they get higher to 5.5k+ they start to do stuff for a reason yet not always too good. 4k players also don't react to events happneing around the map accordingly. It's a massive difference. And I got a lot of games under my belt to confirm my data. My friend also plays a lot of ranked and he agrees with me for sure. 4k players are a bunch of do nothings. 5k players are decent. Above 6k you start to notice less difference but it's still there. 7k players are usually stronger mechanically and make better decisions overall.

    Your replay shows me another trash Storm like I said in previous posts. He came back through fighting. That works sometimes. He didn't jungle. You still haven't shown me a Storm that was shut down on lane that jungled to top net worth or even close.

    http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1783974715

    That is a 5k do nothing player. He was 5.2k PL. He literally lost the game single handedly. Also shows you the weakness of Storm. I could do nothing with my itemization because I relied on PL actually doing something. Why is he just 5.2k? Because he doesn't pressure the lanes when we were stomping them and forcing them to 5 man. Only Medusa farmed alone and all that PL needed to do was throw lances at Dusa early game and pressure that lane. Either their entire team moves there and we pressure all others lanes or Dusa has to back and PL pushes that lane. Instead we have a do nothing PL that farms jungle and they run around as a team farming near their towers waiting for Dusa to get fat.
    Last edited by mmoc9f3c8526e6; 2015-09-12 at 03:29 AM.

  17. #19857
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post

    Look at this
    http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1786695945
    I finally picked a real hero and look at that, we won. Storm got predictably WRECKED mid and our seeker somehow lost jungle against himself, but there's a reason BH is the highest winrate hero in the game. Just sad that this is what it takes to win a game of dota now.
    pretty sure any hero with bh can comeback after few kills, hes that stupid
    "We live in a world where a style of play that uses posession and passing to try and make spaces is made fun of.
    While a style of play where a team sits back for 90 minutes and breaks away in 1v1 situations is respected."
    - Ronald Koeman.

  18. #19858
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    The difference between 5600 and 4200 is massive. I don't know what you're smoking. I've played through the 4k bracket and people just die in this bracket. The most notable thing about 4k players is that they get caught out way too often for no purpose. They don't have a purpose while playing. As they get higher to 5.5k+ they start to do stuff for a reason yet not always too good. 4k players also don't react to events happneing around the map accordingly. It's a massive difference. And I got a lot of games under my belt to confirm my data. My friend also plays a lot of ranked and he agrees with me for sure. 4k players are a bunch of do nothings. 5k players are decent. Above 6k you start to notice less difference but it's still there. 7k players are usually stronger mechanically and make better decisions overall.
    You are a EU player, yes? Your experiences are irrelevant. 6k does not really exist in NA, you are already top 200 if your MMR starts with 6. EU ratings are a solid 1000-1500 above NA. Comparing 4k to 5k in your bracket is like comparing 3k to 4k in mine, and yes, I would agree there is a huge difference, 3k players definitely do just walk around and die a lot.

    Also, the point of my rambling is so say, in so many words, that this patch is not fun at all. It has all of the problems previous patches have had with the meta game, and then so many more. I can see how this patch might be fun for someone that always plays mid. Mids get to be the hero more now than ever before, and are almost always vastly ahead than the other 8 heroes in the game, which means they're always stronger by default and having fun stomping idiots with brown boots. However, I am not a mid player, I do not enjoy mid, and since this is a mid player patch, this patch is easily the worst patch I've played in a long time.

    Quote Originally Posted by EqualWin View Post
    pretty sure any hero with bh can comeback after few kills, hes that stupid
    I agree, that's why I picked him. The only hero in the game that can more or less guarantee my allies get gold. It's just an example of how losing your lane means nothing in this meta. I don't even know how much track gold Storm got, honestly, he died first in most fights early and mid game, most of the time I ganked with him it just ended up getting me 800g and him dead. The point here is that, if we had sent a hero like Slardar mid (random example), he would have been poor and fed the entire game after losing that badly. Storm ended up being extremely relevant and doing a lot of work regardless of his awful start. The popular mids right now simply cannot be stopped completely, only delayed. It's a huge reason they get picked for mid, and it's a huge reason they pretty much all need nerfs in some way or another.

    As far as playing ranked goes, if I don't just rage quit this patch entirely I'll probably just start first picking BH every single game.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2015-09-12 at 04:12 AM.

  19. #19859
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    You are a EU player, yes? Your experiences are irrelevant. 6k does not really exist in NA, you are already top 200 if your MMR starts with 6. EU ratings are a solid 1000-1500 above NA. Comparing 4k to 5k in your bracket is like comparing 3k to 4k in mine, and yes, I would agree there is a huge difference, 3k players definitely do just walk around and die a lot.
    Not really. There are enough players in 3k and 4k in NA too. The reason EU have many high MMR players is that there are more players around that MMR to play with/against. NA MMR just starts to differ from EU MMR at 6k+ MMR. A 5k NA player is not the equivalent of a 6k MMR player in EU. I can already tell from Arteezy's stream.

  20. #19860
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    A 5k NA player is not the equivalent of a 6k MMR player in EU. I can already tell from Arteezy's stream.
    Not saying that's necessarily true, that doesn't mean the ratings are equal, either, though. EU is probably inflated because of more games played and more players. That will lead to some degree of skill inflation as well, probably not a clean thousand yet, but it does mean that I don't think you really know what it's like to be on a team of 4500s in NA until you play NA.

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