[Megathread] DotA 2

[Lysah]

I don't think it's that hard. For people who solo queue maybe, they only get a picture of their skill bracket. Play with friends and it becomes more clear. I have friends who consistently go 0-10 in games they play with me, then they go solo queue and go 15-0 and laugh at just how bad everyone in their bracket is.

If you take the page doctrine into account, even as high as page 50-100, which is still almost the top 10% of the players, people are pretty horrible. Then you take a second to realize there are 700 pages of people at an even LOWER skill bracket than them.

I mean, if there are 800 pages of games, and we assume average means 50%, if you're above page 400 you're above average.

[cudomix]

Tbh you're above average in dota if you just look sometimes on minimap, don't shout SOLO MID PLS as soon as the game starts, have read atleast one guide for one random hero, and have more apm than average goldfish.

[Deleted]

Good question, I suppose. If someone were to ask me what I thought the average player's skill was, I'd say a 1/10.

Then what if you're below average? You go negative?

[Lysah]

Then what if you're below average? You go negative?

The difference between average players and the skill floor is minimal at best, which is kind of my point. The average player is next to as bad as you can be at video games, at least by our standards. The same problem exists in WoW, we complain about so many systems that seem pointless (like the current JP gear in MoP!) because we forget that of the 10 million players, 9.5 million of them play thirty minutes a week.

[PizzaSHARK]

The difference between average players and the skill floor is minimal at best, which is kind of my point. The average player is next to as bad as you can be at video games, at least by our standards. The same problem exists in WoW, we complain about so many systems that seem pointless (like the current JP gear in MoP!) because we forget that of the 10 million players, 9.5 million of them play thirty minutes a week.

Interesting question, though - should we even be factoring in those "casual" (god I hate that term) players when we're trying to figure out where the average player's skill level should be? I mean, sure, they play the game, but they're the kind of player that fires it up once in a blue moon and doesn't spend any time or energy bothering to learn anything about it, so should they even be considered relevant?

[Lysah]

Do we factor in retards when we talk about average IQ? Do we factor in dropouts and failures when we talk about average grades? Just because they're at the bottom doesn't mean they don't count. Yes, you do almost have to actively try to be bad to be that low, but hey, that's what the majority of people in the world are like.

[hellgrazer]

If they give Morphling anything other than minor number nerfs, he'll probably go back to never being picked again in competitive games faster than you can say trend shift. I'd be sad, it wasn't long ago when I cheered for Morphling every game he was picked in in Joindota Masters after a long dry period.

It's probably just me but I don't think almost any heroes really need nerfs, just looking forward to seeing some (Clockwerk) buffed and how the map changes play out.

What should be done IMO is to not let him morph during disables.

[PizzaSHARK]

What should be done IMO is to not let him morph during disables.

That'd cripple him and probably instantly make him bottom-tier.

Only suggestion I have is to increase the mana cost for morphing or lower the stats-per-second. I just feel the current iteration is a little too forgiving of sloppy play compared to others carries' kits.

[hellgrazer]

That'd cripple him and probably instantly make him bottom-tier.

Only suggestion I have is to increase the mana cost for morphing or lower the stats-per-second. I just feel the current iteration is a little too forgiving of sloppy play compared to others carries' kits.

Well with proper warding and good map awareness ( we are talking about the pro players ) you should be able to see and gank coming and activate morph before any disables. Right now its just retarded because you can just derp in the lane and when they stun lock you , you go like "HAHA yea sure!" and activate strength morph, maning you can get away with sloppy play. Sure lowering the stat gain from moph would be a solution too , but I'm not sure it will fix the problem unless they lower it by quite a bit , which would also probably make him a low tier hero.

[Lysah]

Remove the stat gain from picking the ability morph in the first place and Morph is instantly rebalanced. The issue is not how ungodly good he is once farmed - it's that you can't really do much to stop him from getting there. PA is just as ungodly good but shutting her down is, let's be honest, pretty easy, despite her 1800 range spam CSing ability. The biggest issue with morph is that he can morph agility at level 1 and sit on 80 damage. You take Drow's awesome last hitting ability and give it to a hero who can turn that damage into 1500 health and blink away when he's ganked.

Before they added stats to morph skill, morph had a very below average lane phase and was not that hard to beat. People like me went wave/stats for farming and we didn't enter the game until ~30, just like all the other hyper carries.

[Hermanni]

And yet, the added stats to Morph were at least partially because a lot of people were begging for Morphling buffs. And the question is - was he fine then and made overpowered because of clueless people, or is he fine now and about to be made too weak because of clueless people? I'm inclined to think of the latter, I'm fairly sure that with some time players on all levels would get better at dealing with him. You could look at Anti-Mage at high level games - players started putting pressure on him and he went from being first ban/pick to a rare pick and now he's in every other game again.

I'm not entirely sure if I agree if the stats in Morph are a huge deal though, and while I might be mistaken I seem to recall that even prior to that there were 2 popular builds in China for Morphling - One with a very early BKB and one with a very early Ethereal Blade.

[hellgrazer]

Remove the stat gain from picking the ability morph in the first place and Morph is instantly rebalanced. The issue is not how ungodly good he is once farmed - it's that you can't really do much to stop him from getting there. PA is just as ungodly good but shutting her down is, let's be honest, pretty easy, despite her 1800 range spam CSing ability. The biggest issue with morph is that he can morph agility at level 1 and sit on 80 damage. You take Drow's awesome last hitting ability and give it to a hero who can turn that damage into 1500 health and blink away when he's ganked.

Before they added stats to morph skill, morph had a very below average lane phase and was not that hard to beat. People like me went wave/stats for farming and we didn't enter the game until ~30, just like all the other hyper carries.

I honestly think that the 3 agility he currently gains when picking morph will make such a big difference.Like you said , the problem is that you can't stop him from farming , but thats because he can just push a lane to his hearts content because if any1 ganks him he can just Waveform or replicate away. The only reliable way to kill him is to cahin stun , but thats countered by the fact that he can morph heal faster than most people do damage ( remember you won't gank as 5 in the early game). This just allows sloppy play because anything you do to try and stop him , he some way to escape it. Thats why snot allowing morph to be activated while stuned will be the best way to balance him. That way he doesn't loose any of his core gameplay while still having a good way to stop him from farming.

[Lysah]

That would really ruin him as a hero, though. He would die the second someone stunned him at all points in the game, even late game he isn't really that hard to kill. Heroes such as BS have a fairly easy time chasing him down and killing him, actually.

@Manni
I considered Morph a top pick back before they added stats to morph ability. Back then it was always rush eth blade. Can't say I approve of China trying BKB on him.

[hellgrazer]

Not really , that way you will have to think how much strength and how much agility you want , instead of just walking with 600 hp all the time because u can morph at any point. IMO it would add a whole new element of strategy to the hero.

[PizzaSHARK]

Not really , that way you will have to think how much strength and how much agility you want , instead of just walking with 600 hp all the time because u can morph at any point. IMO it would add a whole new element of strategy to the hero.

They'd maybe need to boost his movement speed if that's the case. He's 285, which is second slowest next to Crystal Maiden's awful 280.

For comparison, Anti-Mage runs at 320 and his blink only has a 5 second cooldown.

[hellgrazer]

They'd maybe need to boost his movement speed if that's the case. He's 285, which is second slowest next to Crystal Maiden's awful 280.

For comparison, Anti-Mage runs at 320 and his blink only has a 5 second cooldown.

That or maybe buff his attack range a bit. I'm all for buffing him if he turns out underpowered after that change. But the way it is not is just not the way to go. He is just as strong as any other carry but hes almost impossible to kill unless you 5 man gank him , and even then he can escape.

[PizzaSHARK]

That or maybe buff his attack range a bit. I'm all for buffing him if he turns out underpowered after that change. But the way it is not is just not the way to go. He is just as strong as any other carry but hes almost impossible to kill unless you 5 man gank him , and even then he can escape.

The only thing that bothers me about current Morphling is that he's pretty forgiving of sloppy play because of the combination of a blink and stat morphing. I've seen pros accidentally (or since they're pro, probably intentionally, knowing Morphling's abilities) overextending or being stupid-aggressive and get away with it because they're playing Morphling.

It just seems like increasing his mana costs for morphing (and possibly other things, if needed) would be an acceptable means of allowing people to punish Morphling for making mistakes without rendering him "useless," and it'd potentially raise the skill ceiling for him a bit by making mana management a defining feature of a polished player.

[hellgrazer]

There are many ways to bring him down just a bit to the level of the other heroes. I mean , hes not OP and its not like it's auto win if you pick him , but like you said the way he currently is , he just promotes sloppy play.

On a side note, what I'd like to see in 6.75:

Clockwork Goblin:
-Players are now unable to Force Staff out of Power Cogs.

Every other hero with similar disables has it (Enigma, Void , Disruptor)... Time for some Clockwork love

[PizzaSHARK]

There are many ways to bring him down just a bit to the level of the other heroes. I mean , hes not OP and its not like it's auto win if you pick him , but like you said the way he currently is , he just promotes sloppy play.

On a side note, what I'd like to see in 6.75:

Clockwork Goblin:
-Players are now unable to Force Staff out of Power Cogs.

Every other hero with similar disables has it (Enigma, Void , Disruptor)... Time for some Clockwork love

I'd be fine with them increasing the zap damage from the cogs and just having it zap anyone that staffs out of them. I'd rather there be a mechanic in place that encourages tactical decision-making skills rather than "no, you can't do that because we said no."

I just have an issue with the cogs in general, though... like with Profit's trees, it can be really difficult for a melee carry to do any damage to a trapped victim if they can't blink inside or don't get locked inside. Clockwerk can bust a cog to let them in, but that takes a couple of seconds on a trap that only lasts a handful of seconds to begin with.

Besides, I'd say Clockwerk's real issue is that he simply doesn't scale. Once the game goes past 30 minutes he starts becoming increasingly less relevant because none of his skills will deal any sort of meaningful damage, and if you just want a stun bot or whatever, there are probably better choices. Dude needs like a Tiny-style Aghanim's Scepter or something.

[Hermanni]

-Players are now unable to Force Staff out of Power Cogs.

Doesn't really matter. Late-game when you can expect Force Staffs (and earlier, really) you can revert to the other good use of Cogs: Pushing enemies and splitting teams. Even without Force Staffs in play, this is usually something most players seem to overlook doing even it's sometimes better than just Hooking in and putting the Cogs up. For example, you can Hookshot a target, use the time he is stunned to run behind him, plant Cogs there and push the enemy towards your teammates and push the enemy team away. Unless enemy is facing the right direction while stunned and enemy is ready, Force Staff won't help and even then you might be able to pull off great Cogs. Or you can Hookshot into enemies who are passing a choke point and divide them.

Look at Cogs this way: You're looking at a push that saps mana and damage that goes through BKB (except for the damage.) If your enemy has 5-6 second BKB, you can disable them for almost the full duration with Hookshot and good Cog placement, forcing them to spend time going around them or risking taking multiple pushes. Cogs are great regardless of Force Staff, you just have to try to plan ahead and use them efficiently instead of going Hookshot > Cogs > Did we win?

What Clock actually seems to need is some buff to Battery Assault. All his other abilities are fine, but later in the game BA can be very underwhelming if you don't have the luxury of just locking down a single hero. I'd say the cooldown should be lower so that on Rank 4 you can have a good uptime, and maybe they should up the radius by 50 or 75 units and introduce a secondary zap when there's multiple units in the area. Besides that, I'd say +2 base armor, +1/+0.3 to strenght and +2/+0.2 to int and he should be just fine.