[Megathread] DotA 2

[Underskilled]

Also, question, when you guys play Rubick as support in bot or something, do you find it tolerable? I find it painful if I dont have a force staff as soon as is humanly possible. It seems as though hes so wasted as a support, but not as much of a wrecking ball as other mid heros. However he does trash the tri lane.

I prefer him middle and im boss on him but I dont like how limited I am when I get forced to support.

As someone who's been playing support Rubick almost exclusively for the past few days...limited? Rubick's laning presence is, in my opinion, one of the strongest disablers out there. The lift isn't only a stun, it can put someone out of position, combined with almost any other disable, or even just more nuking, guaranteeing a kill. He isn't very reliant on items either. His high base intelligence and int gain give a pretty strong mana pool, after wand/arcane/force any mana problems usually go away. As for the general supporting, the lack of need for items opens up plenty of gold for wards/dust/etc.

Obviously his role in team fights will depend on what you've stolen previously, but it's fairly tough to go wrong here. Overall, he's a strong mid, but just as strong support, easily netting early game kills in top/bot lanes.

[PizzaSHARK]

70 mana is more than average for a blink ability and without extra int from items at level 2 CB+RR is your entire manapool. I cringe at the words "free kill", but if free turns out to be not so free you're nothing but a merry horse on a lane inviting your enemies to farm freely until you can find yourself some more mana. Few more numbers because I like them, without mana from items or from leveling stats you don't have mana for RR+CB+Phantasm until level 9 (somewhat irrelevant) and RR+CB+rank2Phantasm until level 14 (more relevant.) For a hero that can't flash farm you have to spend a notable amount of gold (for items that don't give you damage) if you want to be relevant in the game more often than every 5 minutes. I wouldn't call that cheap.

It's cheap when you factor in things like magic stick and teammates with arcane boots. Take that for what you will. His full combo is expensive, yeah, but I feel a lot of his usefulness simply comes from the fact he can crap out a potentially Black Hole-length storm bolt every 10 seconds, and he has a sort of poor man's Telekinesis grab every 6 seconds. The illusions are fantastic when they work right, but I'd almost go to the extent of saying CK isn't a real carry, he's more of a sort of utility-carry or support-carry. You're completely right when you say his damage is pretty laughable without his ulti, and that his ulti doesn't last very long relative to its cooldown.

---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 01:09 AM ----------

As someone who's been playing support Rubick almost exclusively for the past few days...limited? Rubick's laning presence is, in my opinion, one of the strongest disablers out there. The lift isn't only a stun, it can put someone out of position, combined with almost any other disable, or even just more nuking, guaranteeing a kill. He isn't very reliant on items either. His high base intelligence and int gain give a pretty strong mana pool, after wand/arcane/force any mana problems usually go away. As for the general supporting, the lack of need for items opens up plenty of gold for wards/dust/etc.

Obviously his role in team fights will depend on what you've stolen previously, but it's fairly tough to go wrong here. Overall, he's a strong mid, but just as strong support, easily netting early game kills in top/bot lanes.

He just feels too vulnerable for a duo lane hard support anymore; he's squishier than Crystal Maiden without her slow-stun combo and now isn't much faster than her. I've seen him used very successfully as a trilane hard support in recent pro games, though.

[Underskilled]

He just feels too vulnerable for a duo lane hard support anymore; he's squishier than Crystal Maiden without her slow-stun combo and now isn't much faster than her. I've seen him used very successfully as a trilane hard support in recent pro games, though.

I certainly won't argue that Rubick is very squishy, squishier than CM, though? Assuming the numbers I'm reading are correct, Rubick has higher base strength until level 17, and only falls behind her by 0.20-0.30 armour throughout leveling. At level 25, he's behind her by 19 health, which of course can still be detrimental, but if we're just considering the time spent laning, most likely irrelevant.

Comparing abilities, while CM has her very strong slow, and hold (Though I believe Frostbite can still be orb walked), Rubick's lift can be set up for interesting escaped situations, or ganks. As it's laning, a gank from either side will usually end up with both side's creeps in the fight, a well executed lift can get (Melee, at least) creep blocked, and sent seconds behind in a gank or escape, possibly securing a kill. I would even go as far to say that lift itself is on par with Frostbite in disabling power, as they share a 1.5 second duration at level 1, and lift is only 0.75 seconds behind at level 4, which could most likely be made up with its 375 distance throw, also keeping in mind (As far as I know) lift prevents any action at all while the target's affected by it. As for nuking power, there is no argument, CM pulls ahead easily with a 250 damage Crystal Nova, 210 damage Frostbite, and her ult varying, but most likely dealing quite a bit of damage. However, Rubick's strength lies more defensively. Especially later in the game, the 20% magic damage reduction from Null Field can make a massive difference against most heroes, and in the early game, the damage done reduction from Fade Bolt can score some powerful trades, or even ganks against those not familiar with it. And of course, the greatest part of Rubick: His ult. The sheer versatility of it can easily strengthen his role while laning, or branch it out, allowing both ganks and escapes to made much more unpredictably.

I won't argue about builds, as they can probably differ far too much from game to game. I'd LOVE to argue about his role in trilane, but it's been all pub games for me, and people don't seem to like to do that

In general, I feel like his skill-set can keep him at least viable in a duo lane as hard support. Obviously this is just my opinion though, and, heh, considering how many games of Dota 2 I've actually played, I wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong.

[PizzaSHARK]

Yeah, CM and Rubick are roughly equal in HP, but CM tends to have a lot more wiggle room because of her skillset being so heavily based around slowing stuff, probably why she's so slow herself. It feels like Rubick is very, very easy to punish for being out of position, maybe even more than CM.

As far as trilane, he seems to be brought pretty much entirely for Telekinesis. Getting picked up and thrown towards the enemy usually ends up being a kill in most games I've seen.

[PizzaSHARK]

I keep trying to give this game a chance. I keep ending up bored to tears. I'm glad there's finally competition for LoL though. Competition is good for both games.

Much better than LoL once you get into it, though getting into it is a lot harder.

Also, solo queuing sucks really bad. If you get teammates that speak your language, there's a good chance they either suck (not necessarily bad if they're friendly, you can still have fun with people that are awful at the game but fun to play with) or they're assholes.

[PizzaSHARK]

I can definitely see why people prefer this to LoL. I have a couple friends that play DOTA 2, and I've played some matches with them. I dunno, DOTA 2 just seems less spammy and a bit slower than LoL. I think I'm ADD. I just fall asleep playing DOTA 2 lol, especially during the laning phase. Though it is cool you can deny creeps.

Yup, Dota 2 is a lot more tactical. You can't cast as often, but when you do cast it has a much larger impact, so a lot of the learning process is knowing when to land those spells to get the job done. I'd think the biggest difference from LoL is that harassing people in lane is done largely by manipulating the creep waves and autoattacking, rather than using spells.

You might try Ogre Magi. He can still use his spells to harass in a sense. Max Ignite first and use it constantly on the guy that has the least amount of HP recovery items (tangos, salves, ring of regeneration, etc.) He also has excellent stats and good stat growth, so he's a little more forgiving of mistakes than some other heroes. Also, he's funny as hell.

[Hermanni]

It's cheap when you factor in things like magic stick and teammates with arcane boots.

You still need several sources of mana if you want to use CB+RR twice in a short period of time. Teammates Arcanes are 135, the combo costs 210 and your supports might not get Arcanes early enough. You're either somewhat useless or you build into items that let you play actively but aren't necessarily best for carrying - Arcanes, Soul Ring, Drums. And if you choose to depend on your teammates for being able to cast your core ability more often than every 5 minutes it doesn't come across as a very cheap one.

Consider that you will almost always want to use CB instead of RR if you don't have mana for both, and to have mana for both early game means you will need almost full mana. RR is an ability that costs more mana than similar skills on a hero that is designed to struggle with mana without items - calling it cheap seems more than far-fetched to me.

but I feel a lot of his usefulness simply comes from the fact he can crap out a potentially Black Hole-length storm bolt every 10 seconds

That's some rather useless analogies, but you know you could just pick Lion for a reliable 4-second disable? Or if you want a tanky hero, even in the STR pool there are a lot more heroes with reliable disables and more utility if you want a support with a stun. CK is as carry (or semi) as they come even if he can peak in early-mid game rather than very late, but like I said the optimal way of playing him involves building him for his ultimate and CB+RR is needed to efficiently use them. He's powerful in an average pub where people see his ultimate and scatter like a herd of sheep for him to pick off at his leisure, but he is still lacking in many aspects and can be easily dealt with.

[PizzaSHARK]

You still need several sources of mana if you want to use CB+RR twice in a short period of time. Teammates Arcanes are 135, the combo costs 210 and your supports might not get Arcanes early enough. You're either somewhat useless or you build into items that let you play actively but aren't necessarily best for carrying - Arcanes, Soul Ring, Drums. And if you choose to depend on your teammates for being able to cast your core ability more often than every 5 minutes it doesn't come across as a very cheap one.

Consider that you will almost always want to use CB instead of RR if you don't have mana for both, and to have mana for both early game means you will need almost full mana. RR is an ability that costs more mana than similar skills on a hero that is designed to struggle with mana without items - calling it cheap seems more than far-fetched to me.

I consider it cheap because it combines a blink with a sort of poor man's Telekinesis grab, which allows CK to somewhat unpredictably reposition the targeted enemy from a fairly respectable distance of 700. If I understand the wiki right, it places CK anywhere from 30%-80% of that distance (210-560) and places the enemy unit facing him 25 units away. Assuming I understand that right, it's saying it can drag the enemy unit anywhere from 210-560 range away from its initial position, or an average of 385 range. For reference, Rubick's Telekinesis has a maximum cast range of 625, can throw units up to 375 distance, has a longer cooldown, and higher mana cost.

Different abilities are different, but I think 70 mana is rather cheap for something that can function very similarly to Rubick's Telekinesis throw subability while also functioning as a traditional blink strike.

That's some rather useless analogies, but you know you could just pick Lion for a reliable 4-second disable? Or if you want a tanky hero, even in the STR pool there are a lot more heroes with reliable disables and more utility if you want a support with a stun. CK is as carry (or semi) as they come even if he can peak in early-mid game rather than very late, but like I said the optimal way of playing him involves building him for his ultimate and CB+RR is needed to efficiently use them. He's powerful in an average pub where people see his ultimate and scatter like a herd of sheep for him to pick off at his leisure, but he is still lacking in many aspects and can be easily dealt with.

I can agree with this to an extent. CK's ulti is really dependent on you using it BEFORE they knock a hole in your HP pool since the illusions effectively have 1/2 of CK's current HP (so probably around 600ish in the midgame), but even cast at 75% HP the illusions will have enough health to take a moderate amount of damage while still dealing full damage, and their large collision models make them really effective for bodyblocking while they last.

I agree that there are better picks for a supporty carry role with a stormbolt (i.e. Sven), but I just feel that Reality Rift is too strong when you consider everything else about it.

[Leonard McCoy]

How come they got rid of double edge suicide? It was so good in dota. They also changed his ultimate to. I liked flat strength bonus.

[Enkidulgaa]

How come they got rid of double edge suicide? It was so good in dota. They also changed his ultimate to. I liked flat strength bonus.

His ult is now built into his STR gain
Strength growth increased from 2.6 to 3.8.
Great Fortitude replaced with Stampede

And as far as I know you can still suicide with Double Edge

[Hermanni]

And as far as I know you can still suicide with Double Edge

Nope. http://www.playdota.com/heroes/centaur-warchief

> Centaur Warchief cannot kill himself with this skill.

[Deleted]

I keep trying to give this game a chance. I keep ending up bored to tears. I'm glad there's finally competition for LoL though. Competition is good for both games.

DOTA 2 just seems less spammy and a bit slower than LoL.

Need to play more Refresher + Scepter Invoker.

[Kuntantee]

Need to play more Refresher + Scepter Invoker.

Interesting build, need to try that lol...

[Finear]

Need to play more Refresher + Scepter Invoker.

ice^3 said at TI2 that this was his build to train sunstrikes on pubs ;p

[Rivenda]

Perhaps this is a noob question, but I play WR most of the time as the support for our team, but when I try to Shackleshot two heros that almost are hugging eachother sometimes I don't dont get the double Shackleshot and we'll have to wait to enrage till I get it off CD, and sometimes I get double Shackleshots on two heroes when I didn't expect it because I thought it was to long range.

So is this a bug or am I doing something wrong? Can tell me how it exactly works?

[Longview]

Perhaps this is a noob question, but I play WR most of the time as the support for our team, but when I try to Shackleshot two heros that almost are hugging eachother sometimes I don't dont get the double Shackleshot and we'll have to wait to enrage till I get it off CD, and sometimes I get double Shackleshots on two heroes when I didn't expect it because I thought it was to long range.

So is this a bug or am I doing something wrong? Can tell me how it exactly works?

Shackle Shot calculates with where you're standing at the time it hits. Not where you fired from.

[Finear]

[Deleted]

I finally reached stage where I prefer Dota 2 like 3 times as much over LoL, after I was dumbed down by LoL(I played DotA 1 before, but stopped playing when Kunkka was released).

Question: How is Warlock? Is he a good hero? I heard he got nerfed when he was ported into Dota 2.

[Enkidulgaa]

I finally reached stage where I prefer Dota 2 like 3 times as much over LoL, after I was dumbed down by LoL(I played DotA 1 before, but stopped playing when Kunkka was released).

Question: How is Warlock? Is he a good hero? I heard he got nerfed when he was ported into Dota 2.

Very simple to play to almost full potential, but bad at higher skill levels

[Deleted]

Very simple to play to almost full potential, but bad at higher skill levels

This is by far the most untrue thing I've read on this forum ^^ His link and Ultimate is by far one of best spells in the game. The Link can put out so much damage, it's insane.

I finally reached stage where I prefer Dota 2 like 3 times as much over LoL, after I was dumbed down by LoL(I played DotA 1 before, but stopped playing when Kunkka was released).

Question: How is Warlock? Is he a good hero? I heard he got nerfed when he was ported into Dota 2.

I knew it.. LoL players get dumbed down by playing it.