[Megathread] DotA 2

[Hermanni]

If you're going to challenge the meta and come up with new ideas, the burden of proof lies on you and public game example just doesn't cut it for me personally because I've seen first hand how different it can be depending on who you face.

That's the core of the issue. The way the community sees it the only way you can challenge the general opinion is by going against the pros and the only way to do that is to be one of them.

The reality is for me that, after a lot of watching competitive games, obsessing over stats at dota-academy, and following drafting trends I came to the conclusion that many of the pro trends are born fairly arbitrarily. In fact I think Puppey could just go ahead now and decide to start picking obscure hero X and take 30 seconds to come up with a strat and then have Na´Vi win a few games with it and there you have a new meta or whatever kids call it these days.

Although I never believed that pro picking trends were any better indicator of hero balance or "viability" than pub win rates, so in my mind it isn't that pubs are wrong and pros are right (or vice versa), it's that they're usually either both right or (more likely) both wrong. If community of pubs can't be right because they're not coordinated enough and pros can't be right because the scene is too unstable then all there is left is speculating on forums, which seems fine to me.

[Deleted]

That's the core of the issue. The way the community sees it the only way you can challenge the general opinion is by going against the pros and the only way to do that is to be one of them.

The reality is for me that, after a lot of watching competitive games, obsessing over stats at dota-academy, and following drafting trends I came to the conclusion that many of the pro trends are born fairly arbitrarily. In fact I think Puppey could just go ahead now and decide to start picking obscure hero X and take 30 seconds to come up with a strat and then have Na´Vi win a few games with it and there you have a new meta or whatever kids call it these days.

Although I never believed that pro picking trends were any better indicator of hero balance or "viability" than pub win rates, so in my mind it isn't that pubs are wrong and pros are right (or vice versa), it's that they're usually either both right or (more likely) both wrong. If community of pubs can't be right because they're not coordinated enough and pros can't be right because the scene is too unstable then all there is left is speculating on forums, which seems fine to me.

Yes, it's exactly that. A public player could very well be right about something but I don't see how he can argue for it working in a professional game based on the sole fact that it works in public games. If you have some proper example or solid arguemnts I can see it or I can at least discuss it but I rarely see that. Puppey could very well introduce a new hero but no one will follow him unless it's proven to work. No one will copy Puppey if he uses some weird ass strat against a bad team and you know the reason why. And speculating is all we can do but I just don't agree with the way people argue for their opinions here. It's just blanket statements. Example from the thread I linked earlier:

I will gladly put it to the test... you kids are all delusional if you dont think this hero rapes the fuck out of an OD mid everything that OD does to win mid has 0 effect on meepo.. Right click dmg? Move the hurt meepo back and get ready too poof in for probably the kill after he over commits. Stolen int so you cant cast anything? just even it out between the meepos so that you can still poof and net with either one of them. What else does OD do inlane to win it? Oh right literally nothing... The hero is only good because he usually has an immense advantage in right click dmg and the other person has no mana to cast anything.. i mean you have 2 heroes...

Not even a matter of whose better aslong as you arnt complete fucking ass at meepo

When I read these quotes I recognize so much from what I've read here on MMO. Just statements and confidence. "No matter what you do you can't win the lane" How do you argue against this? It's much easier to just show it or try it. Like Arteezy did and everything that guy said in those quotes just effectively became false.

[Lysah]

Are you seriously telling me if PizzaSHARK linked a game where he stomped with Viper at his MMR that you would consider it a good example of the hero's strength and OPness and make you change your opinion about Viper? I think you'd say it's because his opponents were horrible or didn't know how to handle the Viper or something along those lines.

Yes, I would consider a good example. Know why? Because Pizza is every bit as awful as the person he stomped, mathematically. Maybe at his MMR he is exploiting a certain weakness of the skill bracket, but throwing out his example because "lol not pro players" is extremely arrogant and not at all conducive to actual theorycrafting. The whole point of theorycrafting is taking everything into consideration, not just what a handful of 30 people do.

I mean, you spend a lot of time writing but you still don't address the fundamental issue at hand here. If we don't play pros, which we never will because we aren't part of pro teams and going to tournaments, and testing against pros is the only way to gain validity for a certain strategy, what is the point of us even discussing strategy? Nothing I say will ever mean anything to you because I haven't crushed R T Z doing it and I'll never get the chance to, so what? Even if I managed to crush him 1v1 mid as Meepo against his OD you'd probably just say he wasn't taking trash pub game seriously, there will always be an excuse for these people because you put them up on a pedestal and worship them.

At the end of the day, the meta trends are actually incredibly predictable to me and I've called popular heroes months in advance of them being mainstream. It's not that hard to see what heroes are strong, or what items, or what lanes, there is nothing the pros do/know that we aren't capable of. They aren't especially innovative or intelligent, they're just good players. And as I've stated repeatedly, they don't experiment much with new, they simply hammer in old strats until they've perfected them, it's safer to play that way. You don't see dual mids because they won a tournament a month ago with a trilane, so why don't they just keep going with the trilane? It would be stupid of them to try something new and risk their paycheck on it.

I hate to bring it up, but, let's not forget that literally everyone on this forum argued with me that Shadowblade was an awful item, a pub trash item, so easily countered, pros never have a problem with it and would never buy such a useless item because it's a joke item for joke players. Just kidding, a couple of months after literally 0 people agreed with me in this very thread about this item it started being built on every single carry in every single pro game until Icefrog had to severely nerf it because everyone found out how absurdly broken of an item it was. Guess I just got lucky.


Edit:
No one will copy Puppey because he used some weird strat against some awful team? You're kidding, right? Midas CM? Does anyone seriously think that isn't an awful strat? I stomped literally dozens of midas supports the day after people saw that on twitch and they just kept doing it because a pro did it so it must work. Even now that the secret is out and people finally started accepting it only worked because that game was a stomp regardless people STILL keep trying it and I see it every couple of days. People are sheep and they will do ANYTHING their god Dendi does.

Hell, I get flamed almost every single game I play Jugg for going travels, and especially if I go radiance people say I'm throwing literally every time. And amazingly enough, I actually DID copy that idea from a professional player. The community literally just has no idea what it's talking about from day to day.

[Longview]

I hate to bring it up, but, let's not forget that literally everyone on this forum argued with me that Shadowblade was an awful item, a pub trash item, so easily countered, pros never have a problem with it and would never buy such a useless item because it's a joke item for joke players.

how come i dont get recognition

whatever

http://blog.dota2.com/2014/02/free-to-play-coming-soon/

[Deleted]

Yes, I would consider a good example. Know why? Because Pizza is every bit as awful as the person he stomped, mathematically. Maybe at his MMR he is exploiting a certain weakness of the skill bracket, but throwing out his example because "lol not pro players" is extremely arrogant and not at all conducive to actual theorycrafting. The whole point of theorycrafting is taking everything into consideration, not just what a handful of 30 people do.

I mean, you spend a lot of time writing but you still don't address the fundamental issue at hand here. If we don't play pros, which we never will because we aren't part of pro teams and going to tournaments, and testing against pros is the only way to gain validity for a certain strategy, what is the point of us even discussing strategy? Nothing I say will ever mean anything to you because I haven't crushed R T Z doing it and I'll never get the chance to, so what? Even if I managed to crush him 1v1 mid as Meepo against his OD you'd probably just say he wasn't taking trash pub game seriously, there will always be an excuse for these people because you put them up on a pedestal and worship them.

At the end of the day, the meta trends are actually incredibly predictable to me and I've called popular heroes months in advance of them being mainstream. It's not that hard to see what heroes are strong, or what items, or what lanes, there is nothing the pros do/know that we aren't capable of. They aren't especially innovative or intelligent, they're just good players. And as I've stated repeatedly, they don't experiment much with new, they simply hammer in old strats until they've perfected them, it's safer to play that way. You don't see dual mids because they won a tournament a month ago with a trilane, so why don't they just keep going with the trilane? It would be stupid of them to try something new and risk their paycheck on it.

I hate to bring it up, but, let's not forget that literally everyone on this forum argued with me that Shadowblade was an awful item, a pub trash item, so easily countered, pros never have a problem with it and would never buy such a useless item because it's a joke item for joke players. Just kidding, a couple of months after literally 0 people agreed with me in this very thread about this item it started being built on every single carry in every single pro game until Icefrog had to severely nerf it because everyone found out how absurdly broken of an item it was. Guess I just got lucky.


Edit:
No one will copy Puppey because he used some weird strat against some awful team? You're kidding, right? Midas CM? Does anyone seriously think that isn't an awful strat? I stomped literally dozens of midas supports the day after people saw that on twitch and they just kept doing it because a pro did it so it must work. Even now that the secret is out and people finally started accepting it only worked because that game was a stomp regardless people STILL keep trying it and I see it every couple of days. People are sheep and they will do ANYTHING their god Dendi does.

I meant after you had watched the replay. Not instantly dismiss it and just saying those he faced were awful. Yes, maybe Pizza exploited something at 3.7k MMR that makes Viper work. And that's fine. Saying he is OP at that MMR is fine. But saying he is OP at 7k MMR when he hasn't ever been there with the hero just seems odd to me. You can talk about your shiny strategies all you want and that's not even the core issue. I've said it before, make arguments for it and not just: "It works". And about the fundamental issue you ask me to adress. Your strategy can very well have validity in the games you play because you obviously win. But how can you make the argument for that it will work in pro games when you haven't tried it or how can you make the argument that pros are doing it wrong compared to you just because it worked in a public game? You're not playing the same game.

If you beat RTZ as Meepo against Arteezy OD then congratulations, you have solid proof that it works against a professional player and you can make argument for why it worked. Everything I've said has had an example with it. I'm not just going to make a statement that Arteezy wasn't playing seriously against you unless I have anything to show for it. Don't you think it's strange that the pros like Arteezy increased so much in MMR right after ranked came? Why is that? They just suddenly became better? It obviously points to something. Again, I try to back things up instead of just stating things.

Okay, so now you make the argument that because the pros used Shadow Blade it validated your strategy? What if you're both wrong and that other guy that just play public games was right about it being shit and you and the pros were just doing it wrong? Ironic, isn't it? I wasn't here when you argued for Shadow Blade but it received a lot of buffs iin a short duration I remember.

And the game changes a lot in a couple of months. I recall you saying Weaver was strong and telling everyone that you predicted it when you saw pros pick it in TI3. Where is he now? Who was right? I've been playing Tinker for ages and considered him strong in public games. Today Liquid picked it and won 'cause of the Tinker. Can I now say I predicted the pick and always understood that the hero was strong? You also said Medusa was one of the strongest carries in the game. Professionals picked it for like 1 week then realized they don't like it.

Midas CM? That was LGD.int after successfully doing it against LGD.cn which was considered a strong team back then. And that's my point. They proved it against a strong team. And when I said no one will copy I meant no pro team will copy. Manni was talking about the meta and public players don't dictate the meta, the pros do so I don't see why you mention public players copying Puppey.

[Lysah]

how come i dont get recognition

whatever

http://blog.dota2.com/2014/02/free-to-play-coming-soon/

Because I don't remember anyone agreeing with me because that would make me seem less special and unique.

@Ariadne
They didn't prove anything against a strong team, that's MY point. It working once doesn't make it a valid strategy. And sorry if I misunderstood your last post.

[Deleted]

Because I don't remember anyone agreeing with me because that would make me seem less special and unique.

@Ariadne
They didn't prove anything against a strong team, that's MY point. It working once doesn't make it a valid strategy. And sorry if I misunderstood your last post.

Of course it makes it a valid strategy if it worked. That's the whole definition of valid, I would say. It doesn't work in another game because the opponent did something different? Fine, then it wasn't a valid strategy in that game. But Midas CM worked in a lot of games but then 6.79 or 6.80 came and game changed. Maybe it wouldn't be a valid strategy against you because you know how to beat Midas CM, that's fine. You get back to my point. If it works for pros in pro games then it's a valid strategy for them and they can say it works for them because it does. If you dual off lane works for you, you can say it works for your games. It's when you state that it works for kind of games you aren't playing it becomes a bit weird for me. Up until that point Midas did work. Game changed, strategy became worse. Natural way of Dota 2.

[Lysah]

So then you're saying that you agree that we should split the discussion of strategy up into two sections, A) pros and B) everybody else, and that they aren't even remotely related? If we agree on that, then fine, but what's the point of discussion pro strategy, then, again? Just for fun?

[Deleted]

So then you're saying that you agree that we should split the discussion of strategy up into two sections, A) pros and B) everybody else, and that they aren't even remotely related? If we agree on that, then fine, but what's the point of discussion pro strategy, then, again? Just for fun?

No, I'm saying that we should try to stop saying things like the pros do it wrong or this hero is super strong in a pro game but pros just don't use it and maybe have some real arguments for why things work and maybe try it out?

As I said, I'm fine with people saying things like: "I believe QoP is an extremely strong laner against TA in pro games by double waving the TA, denying her level 2 and pressuring her under tower with your creep wave and Shadow Strike because she has no Meld. This will delay her Bottle which she desperately needs" then another guy maybe counters: "TA wins because of the fog that the trees near the tower provide. Most people don't realize they need to hide there until they get level 2 to get the Meld to ddoge Shadow Strikes. This will allow her to avoid harass and get her Bottle...". You get my point. Bring some arguments. Not just "QoP wins over TA 'cause I just hit her to death and I do it in my public games all the time and it would work in pro games too against any TA". What am I supposed to say to this? "but but, if the TA can play she will not die and just out CS you". Very productive discussion. I think not.

[veiledy0]

Who's that w33 guy who played for Sigma today? Is he a decent player, 'cause I've never heard of him before, and he played that Ember Spirit pretty well. I sense there'll be some changes to that hero, now that it's added to CM, as he has somewhat the map presence of a Furion, while packing 10x the punch.

[Lysah]

No, I'm saying that we should try to stop saying things like the pros do it wrong or this hero is super strong in a pro game but pros just don't use it and maybe have some real arguments for why things work and maybe try it out?

Don't think I ever said the pros do it wrong, I just said they can do it better.

[Deleted]

Who's that w33 guy who played for Sigma today? Is he a decent player, 'cause I've never heard of him before, and he played that Ember Spirit pretty well. I sense there'll be some changes to that hero, now that it's added to CM, as he has somewhat the map presence of a Furion, while packing 10x the punch.

It's the Earth Spirit player I talked about like 2 weeks ago on these forums. He gained recognition because he boosted his rating to the highest in the world for a while when he played ES. He was around 6.5k I think when everyone else was max 6k by having a 80% win rate with Earth. If you faced w33's Earth Spirit when the hero was popular you'd realize how insanely OP and frustrating it was to play against and you'd laugh at all the other public ES players you faced thinking how much worse they are. He's a consistent page 1 player that started to play with some pros such as FATA- in pubs and I guess now he gets to standin for teams. Maybe next Bulldog. Who knows. His Meepo is quite decent also.

[PizzaSHARK]

Of course it makes it a valid strategy if it worked. That's the whole definition of valid, I would say. It doesn't work in another game because the opponent did something different? Fine, then it wasn't a valid strategy in that game. But Midas CM worked in a lot of games but then 6.79 or 6.80 came and game changed. Maybe it wouldn't be a valid strategy against you because you know how to beat Midas CM, that's fine. You get back to my point. If it works for pros in pro games then it's a valid strategy for them and they can say it works for them because it does. If you dual off lane works for you, you can say it works for your games. It's when you state that it works for kind of games you aren't playing it becomes a bit weird for me. Up until that point Midas did work. Game changed, strategy became worse. Natural way of Dota 2.

Game changed arbitrarily. Midas recipe was increased by 200 gold. That's what, two big jungle creeps?

People stopped using it because Valve nerfed it, which clearly makes it bad.

Also, the pros stopped having a collective developmental disorder and realized that letting someone with a Midas drag the game out is really fucking stupid and you should punish that idiot Crystal Maiden for buying Midas instead of Mekansm or Ghost Scepter.

[veiledy0]

He was around 6.5k

Dayum, that's like 3 times my rating, haha.

[Charge me Doctor]

Also, dual breath is reliable. If you click on enemy hero they can't dodge it unless they're at like 500+ movespeed. But, if we're going to say extreme situations make spells unreliable then magic missile and storm bolt are unreliable because you can manta out of them. As far as ice path vs frostbite...ice path isn't reliable but it is still a hell of a lot better than frostbite will ever be. Literally the only thing CM has going for her is the ability to eat creeps, she loses in every single other way imagineable. Her ult being trash that is barely worth skilling for the aoe slow is the first thing that needs to change.

I agree about tether, that blink heroes now can't be countered by wisp.
If you click on enemy hero, dual breath won't be cast on max range, so you need to be even closer to enemy, as a big and slow dragon it's quite hard. Ice path is only better in a way of it being AoE, IMO, it has much better synergy with almost all heroes. I think that CM ult is awesome when you level it (at 10-11) and it can deal lots of damage if you have mana to do so.

[PizzaSHARK]

I agree about tether, that blink heroes now can't be countered by wisp.
If you click on enemy hero, dual breath won't be cast on max range, so you need to be even closer to enemy, as a big and slow dragon it's quite hard. Ice path is only better in a way of it being AoE, IMO, it has much better synergy with almost all heroes. I think that CM ult is awesome when you level it (at 10-11) and it can deal lots of damage if you have mana to do so.

The problem with CM ult is that it's hideously random. I've seen so many times where CM runs up to someone and ults and they get away with very little damage because all of the rocks hit on the opposite side of the hero being targeted. Sometimes the hero will even get away without taking any damage, especially if they're fast (Luna.)

There's no world in which CM ulti is even on the same level as Jakiro ult. Jakiro ult is a phenomenal zoning tool and can even be used to remove trees, and while its damage potential is lower than CM's, it has a long cast range, short cooldown, and above all... it's consistent.

Also, in regards to Ice Path being unreliable about a setup - so draft a hero that can do that for you. It's not like Shadow Demon or Rubick went anywhere or are somehow less ridiculously good, and a powerful slow like Venomous Gale works fine, too.

Or hell, safelane/trilane OD and use Astral Imprisonment for the setup.

[Charge me Doctor]

The problem with CM ult is that it's hideously random. I've seen so many times where CM runs up to someone and ults and they get away with very little damage because all of the rocks hit on the opposite side of the hero being targeted. Sometimes the hero will even get away without taking any damage, especially if they're fast (Luna.)

There's no world in which CM ulti is even on the same level as Jakiro ult. Jakiro ult is a phenomenal zoning tool and can even be used to remove trees, and while its damage potential is lower than CM's, it has a long cast range, short cooldown, and above all... it's consistent.

Also, in regards to Ice Path being unreliable about a setup - so draft a hero that can do that for you. It's not like Shadow Demon or Rubick went anywhere or are somehow less ridiculously good, and a powerful slow like Venomous Gale works fine, too.

Or hell, safelane/trilane OD and use Astral Imprisonment for the setup.

Well, here i agree, but if you use it in a crowd of 5 enemies, it will deal decent damage. And probably you will get stunned instead your carry.

As i already told somewhere, Jakiro is great in teamfight, his synergy is awesome, while CM has greater ganking potential and weaker, "randomier" teamfight presence

[Deleted]

CM is one of my favorite supports and I just can't agree with most of the issues you name. I play only pubs (mostly unranked) on who-knows-how high MMR, and we usually don't run trilanes, I never jungle for her and still, I think she's very powerful even as safe lane support.

Crystal Nova has ridiculous range as a AoE slow. Sure, CM is slow as a snail, but with the slow from Crystal Nova you can usually get close enough to Frostbite. And Frostbite is really not as terrible as you claim it to be. It's not stun, but the damage it does is respectable and the freeze can net very easy early game kills. With these skills against solo hero, CM can easily zone out the opponent from lane. Yes, there are solo heroes that might trade blows with you and with passive player on lane, you can die if you are not careful (think weaver, mirana), but that is pretty much all CM is about - positioning. If you get caught even a bit off position as CM, you usually die, but when you play her well, she can be really annoying. Not even talking about when you get some assist / kill / tower gold, manage not to die so much and get blink dagger.

About the aura, I really don't think you need to "build your team around it". Especially for low mana pool heroes such as weaver, centaur, tiny, slardar, the mana regen even on rank 1 aura is huge. It's one of those things that you don't really notice, but it let's you cast a lot more spells as any hero.

What you are right about is that the ulti is a bit meh and really random. The damage output is however pretty huge, so if you get lucky streak, it can turn the tide of battle. And again, it's very position dependant. What's probably the best way to use it is to hide in the trees, sacrifice some of the AoE for survivability the shadows offer.

I really don't think Jakiro is all that awesome on lane as you claim him to be. His ice path on lower ranks is ridiculously short for how long it takes to cast. I imagine his peak more around level 8-9, when he gets his base skills maxed. Don't get me wrong, he's one of the best counter initiators in the game, but I don't really see him as ideal lane support - his stun is short, cast animations terrible, small range. By the way, the "Ice Path is practically a Fissure" claim was hilarious. They are nothing alike.

I also wanted to support Ariadne by saying that I agree with most things he said on the last ~3 pages.

[PizzaSHARK]

Rox.KIS pick Leoric, proceed to go 2/1/1 skill build, never builds Armlet, builds fucking Diffusal Blade on him, generally plays him like shit. Na'Vi picked CM and used her with a roaming Sven exceptionally well, but I think that's as much because Rox.KIS had no picks/methods of doing anything about the dual roam as anything else. Oh, and Rox.KIS let Dendi get Pudge; you can imagine how well that worked for them.

These XMG games are making it painfully obvious that the pros are clueless outside of the heroes that are currently trending. You could say they're just horsing around and aren't taking it seriously, but you'd have to be a moron to intentionally throw games when the prize pool's already up to $31,000. That's $3,100 per person for the winning team. I know I'd be taking it very damn seriously if that much money was on the table.

[veiledy0]

builds fucking Diffusal Blade on him

Think he was just very very mad 'bout the necro archer burning his mana in the early game. Looking at 633's Invoker and yol's Tusk in game 2 does prove your point about some of them being quite bad on certain heroes tho.