[Megathread] DotA 2

[Jester Joe]

Without vision? Supports let their wards fall down too often. Then when you say to them that we got no vision they say that they can't ward 'cause they have no vision. I know, it confuses me too.

Well how are you suppose to ward when you end up getting ganked along the way?
Honestly I'm getting to the point in pubs where if there's no support I'm not gonna pick one, people expect way too much from a solo support.

[Deleted]

Well how are you suppose to ward when you end up getting ganked along the way?
Honestly I'm getting to the point in pubs where if there's no support I'm not gonna pick one, people expect way too much from a solo support.

Exactly that mentality stops low-mid MMR supports from ever performing well. I hear it every game from bad supports. "I can't go ward", "I'm solo support so I can't keep wards up", "I'm solo support so I can't have sentries for the gank". It's just an excuse for lackluster play.

I understand that's it's hard to ward when the other team has total map control and you are getting dominated but in non-stomp game it's not that hard. You need to ward with an objective. Suicide warding is fine if it's a crucial spot you need to cover but if it's a suicide ward then maybe don't ask your team to come with you. The only times I feel you need teammates to cover you is when you want aggressive wards.

The way people ward shows how much knowledge they have about the game. And guess what? I can always tell if a guy is a bad support by just watching how he wards, it never surprises me.

You playing against a TB or Naga? Maybe ward your own woods and its entrance points because he is going to take over it once he is strong enough. People don't do that though and they continue to ward rune spots and Roshan pits and stuff. Playing with a Tinker? Get a mid ward up so he can spam Rockets once he has BoTs and defend your mid tower without having to risk his life by getting jumped on. Playing against Radiant SF? Try getting a ward that sees when he goes for the neutrals. Got a good lead? Offensive wards so your team can take over their jungle and farm it. If you don't ward they can't do that and your lead may just slip away very quickly.

It's all about understanding the game, the heroes you are facing and playing with and the flow of the game and what you want to do. The understanding of these things shows in your warding.

Your question about getting ganked along the way? Why can they see you? Because they got wards up. You reduce the chance of getting ganked drastically if you have wards up yourself so you can see where their gankers are. You also reduce the chance to die if you know where their wards are and avoid running through them. That's also one of the things that separates good from bad supports. Good supports notice when enemy ward in vision, bad supports don't.

[Charge me Doctor]

Suicide warding is never fine, because you will have your ward destroyed in next half of a minute. And it sucks to be melee solo support because you literally can't deward on HG

[Jester Joe]

Exactly that mentality stops low-mid MMR supports from ever performing well. I hear it every game from bad supports. "I can't go ward", "I'm solo support so I can't keep wards up", "I'm solo support so I can't have sentries for the gank". It's just an excuse for lackluster play.

How often do you honestly play support though(Not meaning this as a jab, I just believe you were saying you prefer mid)? Because this is the exact reason I'm being turned off from it. I don't play MMR, but in pubs people somehow expect me to get wards(Both kinds), mek, and boots all on generated gold. It's the mentality of everyone needs to rush carries as soon as possible that causes this, because no one wants to play support. It's just awful. The amount of team mates that I encounter that will blame you for only have brown boots and what not, or the ones that don't even understand what the hell supports do, vastly outnumbers the amount of players that understand if the other team decides to stun you, you'll drop in seconds due to spending a majority of gold on wards. And forget suicide warding, no matter where you ward, most people will end up blaming you for feeding. I've even gotten numerous teams where I will ward the river for example, and they could obviously see bottom heading to mid, or mid heading to bot, and they'll still end up getting ganked, even if missing was called, then say like 7 minutes later "wth, need wards".

If I'm playing with friends, or with people who actually use the wards, yes, I will ward the hell out of that map. But when it comes down to it, usually a mek is more useful on a team that just ignores wards anyway, or doesn't help place them.

Also they don't even need wards up, it could just be an invis Riki roaming around, but I'm assuming I should also have dust to randomly pop if I'm feeling lucky to reveal someone right? Honestly I'm not a great player, but it's just the right way to work the game in my opinion by running with one support.

[Deleted]

How often do you honestly play support though(Not meaning this as a jab, I just believe you were saying you prefer mid)? Because this is the exact reason I'm being turned off from it. I don't play MMR, but in pubs people somehow expect me to get wards(Both kinds), mek, and boots all on generated gold.

Not often at all. But when I do, people never blame me for only having boots or for feeding. Now, ask yourself is it your or me that is playing support wrong if that's the case? I won my last two games as support like two days ago. We were in quite a pickle but managed to win both games. I'm not even a good support and I still don't get flamed when I play it.

No one will say "wth, need wards" if there are wards up. If they stay that they are just retards and you know it and just ping on the ward and do a "?".

@Charge me doctor

What I meant by suicide warding is going into a risky place where you might very well end up killed but if you manage to get the ward up then you get a huge advantage. It's not about warding in vision. Sometimes you see pro support run alone into enemy woods and put a ward down. Obviously if he is caught he doesn't put it down.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Tis why I don't play Support.

[Deleted]

Tis why I don't play Support.

'Cause people flame you for not supporting when you pick support? Okay.

[Deleted]

'Cause people flame your for not supporting when you pick support? Okay.

Because people don't realise its hard enough to solo support vs 2 supports when warding and instead of coming with you to gank or at least as backup when warding they mindlessly farm while you lose map vision and eventually don't have enough money to compete with 2 people counterwarding and warding and trying to not get killed while doing so often leads to wards in poor places or risk getting killed myself, and then getting moaned at for feeding even thought I've died 2 times more than our carry.

Clearly my fault.

[Maruka]

I like to support, and i think the only time it really sucks to be solo support (which is annoying as hell sometimes) is if they have a good double support that counter wards. Then you inevitably will have a map with no wards at some point.

Ive won a lot of support matches of late, even one where our sf mid started 0-8 lol

[veiledy0]

Exactly that mentality stops low-mid MMR supports from ever performing well. I hear it every game from bad supports. "I can't go ward", "I'm solo support so I can't keep wards up", "I'm solo support so I can't have sentries for the gank". It's just an excuse for lackluster play.

It's rather egoism than lackluster play. Supporting is considered a "shit job", and no one likes doing shit jobs alone. The only support I ever pick if I'm forced to do it is Bane, so that in case my carry and mid are shit, I can sleep my team mates out of position and help the enemies get more kills to end the game faster.

[Deleted]

Because people don't realise its hard enough to solo support vs 2 supports when warding and instead of coming with you to gank or at least as backup when warding they mindlessly farm while you lose map vision and eventually don't have enough money to compete with 2 people counterwarding and warding and trying to not get killed while doing so often leads to wards in poor places or risk getting killed myself, and then getting moaned at for feeding even thought I've died 2 times more than our carry.

Clearly my fault.

There are two sides to every story and the things you say I hear supports in my games say all the time and I can tell that they make way more mistakes than that but they don't see it. But ask yourself why don't I get flamed even though I don't play support often and I consider it my worst role? Why don't I consider it difficult? Am I just lucky?

[Drunkenvalley]

There are two sides to every story and the things you say I hear supports in my games say all the time and I can tell that they make way more mistakes than that but they don't see it. But ask yourself why don't I get flamed even though I don't play support often and I consider it my worst role? Why don't I consider it difficult? Am I just lucky?

Without a replay at hand, we can't exactly tell whether you're doing supporting right or not.

[Deleted]

There are two sides to every story and the things you say I hear supports in my games say all the time and I can tell that they make way more mistakes than that but they don't see it. But ask yourself why don't I get flamed even though I don't play support often and I consider it my worst role? Why don't I consider it difficult? Am I just lucky?

Who said it was difficult ? Nobody, its lack of help from the team.

Difference being you are at 5k + rating, most people are not.

- - - Updated - - -

Without a replay at hand, we can't exactly tell whether you're doing supporting right or not.

You can't support correctly as a solo support without appropriate back up from your team, look at any pro game and it will show you this.

[Deleted]

Who said it was difficult ? Nobody, its lack of help from the team.

Difference being you are at 5k + rating, most people are not.

Sorry, didn't you mean it is difficult when you said "Because people don't realise its hard enough to solo support vs 2 supports....".

Difference? The difference is I can tell if a guy is a low MMR support by just seeing how many excuses he makes for not having wards up. Is this a coincidence?

Do note that what I've said in this thread is just the basic support play. I could go on about the thousands of mistakes supports make in general but that'd just be superfluous 'cause they can't even get the basics right.

@Drukenvalley

I don't play support "right". I just play it good enough to not get flamed by the ones I'm supposed to support.

[Jester Joe]

I don't play support "right". I just play it good enough to not get flamed by the ones I'm supposed to support.

I'd say no, you're playing it at a bracket where people in general understand how to play support. Have you gone through the trench lately? You could literally do everything right, and people will flame you for not doing something wrong. For example, like pointed out earlier in another thread, battle fury isn't good for PA, yet there are people in pubs that will flame you if you don't get one. Or getting Agh's on OD. I've had so many team mates go double boots, use the beam as phoenix until they have low health just to kill creeps, but the enemy will just tower dive to kill them, get life steal on Wrath King, or even get two skull bashers on Sniper, and then ask if they stack.
I'd like to think I'm a decent support, since my two highest win percentages are on Witch Doctor and Crystal Maiden, I will ward, I think you misunderstood what I meant in the first place, I don't refuse to ward for no reason, it's when people start flaming for you not having arcane boots yet or something silly, when you simply can't afford it because the game has only been going for 15 minutes and someone has to keep the wards up.
And like Puffler said, supporting not hard. What is hard is getting your team mates to actually have a higher IQ than a potato.

[Deleted]

I'd say no, you're playing it at a bracket where people in general understand how to play support. Have you gone through the trench lately? You could literally do everything right, and people will flame you for not doing something wrong. For example, like pointed out earlier in another thread, battle fury isn't good for PA, yet there are people in pubs that will flame you if you don't get one. Or getting Agh's on OD. I've had so many team mates go double boots, use the beam as phoenix until they have low health just to kill creeps, but the enemy will just tower dive to kill them, get life steal on Wrath King, or even get two skull bashers on Sniper, and then ask if they stack.
I'd like to think I'm a decent support, since my two highest win percentages are on Witch Doctor and Crystal Maiden, I will ward, I think you misunderstood what I meant in the first place, I don't refuse to ward for no reason, it's when people start flaming for you not having arcane boots yet or something silly, when you simply can't afford it because the game has only been going for 15 minutes and someone has to keep the wards up.
And like Puffler said, supporting not hard. What is hard is getting your team mates to actually have a higher IQ than a potato.

Is my bracket the bracket where people understand how to play support? I've been ranting in the last two pages about how people don't know how to play support and you come to this conclusion?

I understand that in the trench people will flame you for anything but that applies to all roles, as you showed with your PA and OD example. How is that relevant to what I've been saying about supports? Furthermore, f you are in the trench do you really think I wouldn't see quite a lot of mistakes you make as support? And do you think those mistakes are because you are solo supporting?

[Deleted]

Sorry, didn't you mean it is difficult when you said "Because people don't realise its hard enough to solo support vs 2 supports....".

Difference? The difference is I can tell if a guy is a low MMR support by just seeing how many excuses he makes for not having wards up. Is this a coincidence?

Do note that what I've said in this thread is just the basic support play. I could go on about the thousands of mistakes supports make in general but that'd just be superfluous 'cause they can't even get the basics right.

@Drukenvalley

I don't play support "right". I just play it good enough to not get flamed by the ones I'm supposed to support.

Assume supports are equal skills

The 2 supports will win.

Ergo supports 1v2 is difficult, as it is difficult to carry when your team feeds 40 deaths, doesn't make the physical act difficult, just the situation you are put in is difficult.


You seem to be unable to grasp the idea that if you buy wards and they get countered and you lose vision, you go to counter the wards solo (as nobody will help) and then get killed.

Do you A : Go back and probably get killed again

B : Ward a different and less effective location allowing them to retain better map control and you can't ward properly.

Or C : Don't buy wards.


I go for B personally instead of perma feeding, but then i get raged at when i put wards in different locations instead of feeding and having said wards counter within 20 seconds.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

'Cause people flame you for not supporting when you pick support? Okay.

O_o...where did that come from.

[Jester Joe]

Is my bracket the bracket where people understand how to play support? I've been ranting in the last two pages about how people don't know how to play support and you come to this conclusion?

I understand that in the trench people will flame you for anything but that applies to all roles, as you showed with your PA and OD example. How is that relevant to what I've been saying about supports? Furthermore, f you are in the trench do you really think I wouldn't see quite a lot of mistakes you make as support? And do you think those mistakes are because you are solo supporting?

So, you're saying you don't play support often first, which I do, and then go on to say since I'm in the trench making mistakes because I'm solo supporting?
To me that's kind of odd to say it that way, you're admitting you have a lack of experiencing playing supports, yet try to call out someone else on a lack of experience?

It's relevant because the the first thing I said was I'm annoyed of playing pubs and getting flamed for not solo supporting the whole map constantly. Yet you're comparing that to no one actually knowing how to play support. I know how to support, but what I was saying was even if I knew, even if I was a pro at the game on a smurf account, people in pubs will STILL think they know better, and I'm just tired of dealing with that. I mean come on, is it a mistake that I bought wards, placed them, and somehow people will expect more magically when there's a restock time? Or that I only have brown boots and people are telling me I should have arcane? Please, tell me where the hell the mistake is in that, because even you seem to be saying there is none, yet people STILL FLAME FOR IT, ergo, it's not FUN TO PLAY SUPPORT.
Solo support is just a thing that shouldn't exist in my opinion, at least in pubs where no one's gonna understand why you might have to run into the woods as CM to get a bit of extra gold for wards and boots.

[Deleted]

Assume supports are equal skills

The 2 supports will win.

Ergo supports 1v2 is difficult, as it is difficult to carry when your team feeds 40 deaths, doesn't make the physical act difficult, just the situation you are put in is difficult.


You seem to be unable to grasp the idea that if you buy wards and they get countered and you lose vision, you go to counter the wards solo (as nobody will help) and then get killed.

Do you A : Go back and probably get killed again

B : Ward a different and less effective location allowing them to retain better map control and you can't ward properly.

Or C : Don't buy wards.


I go for B personally instead of perma feeding, but then i get raged at when i put wards in different locations instead of feeding and having said wards counter within 20 seconds.

2 supports will win what? Two supports are useless if they don't know how to play. It's extremely rare to see a good dual support combo. The last one I saw must have been like 3 or 4 months ago against that Sonneiko guy and his friend.

How often do you see supports getting cover when they are dewarding in a game where they are behind in pro games? Not often at all.

Option B is probably best of the ones you listed but you can also wait until your team has killed someone or you win a fight or when your teammates are close. You don't need to instantly go deward.

But hey, Swiftending just posted a post about supports after my rant: http://www.playdota.com/forums/showp...postcount=2576