1. #18681
    Axe question: should I aim for higher hp pool or for higher armor lategame?
    Basically, Shiva or Tarrasque?

  2. #18682
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    Axe question: should I aim for higher hp pool or for higher armor lategame?
    Basically, Shiva or Tarrasque?
    depends on what you are playing against

    farmed physical damage carry = armor
    mostly magical damage = raw hp

  3. #18683
    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    depends on what you are playing against

    farmed physical damage carry = armor
    mostly magical damage = raw hp
    against cancer lancer F.e.

  4. #18684
    I'd get shiva's against cancer lancer the debuff as well as the active all help but Axe just isn't great against pl.

    He's one of those heroes who does ok mid game then PL just annihilates late game.

    In the meta now you have to really run him in the offlane against good opposition which in turn is going to slow your dagger heavily which then means pl will probably have farm and your impact will be lower.

  5. #18685
    Quote Originally Posted by Release View Post
    I'd get shiva's against cancer lancer the debuff as well as the active all help but Axe just isn't great against pl.

    He's one of those heroes who does ok mid game then PL just annihilates late game.

    In the meta now you have to really run him in the offlane against good opposition which in turn is going to slow your dagger heavily which then means pl will probably have farm and your impact will be lower.
    well I tend to jungle tranq-> fast dagger, then depending on situation -> vanguard/bkb , with Wand somewhere inbetween

  6. #18686
    KILL ME PLEASE BUT STEAM SUPPORT FIRST.

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  7. #18687
    as axe, I usually would go for, tranq vanguard blink (or blinkbefore vanguard) into force staff/eul blademail aghs or refresher (double call win games).

    i dont think u want shivas vs cancer lancer, he'll do more dmg to u because u'll have more mana..
    "We live in a world where a style of play that uses posession and passing to try and make spaces is made fun of.
    While a style of play where a team sits back for 90 minutes and breaks away in 1v1 situations is respected."
    - Ronald Koeman.

  8. #18688
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Item nerfs that need to happen:

    - Glimmer Cape invisibility is removed from moving in addition to attacking, casting spells, or using items, with a 1.0 sec reveal time (think SK Sandstorm.) Magic resist is still +55% and takes effect immediately, but is reduced to +20% while invisible.

    Better than just making it more expensive - it could cost 2500 gold and it would still be OP as hell. Glimmer Cape gives a brief surge of MR suitable for predicting very fast bursts (Laguna Blade, etc) or reacting to delayed effects (Reaper's Scythe, etc) that quickly drops to a mild boost once the invis takes hold. The invis can then be used a lot like a short duration Meld (useful for channeled spells), or you can continue moving for a 1.0 sec grace period exactly like SK's Sandstorm. Alternative might be to make it function like a reverse Ghost Scepter, that makes you nearly immune to spells but makes you take more damage from physical damage for the duration of the effect.

    Right now, there's no opportunity cost to buying or using Glimmer Cape, and using it is pretty brainless. Use of items in DotA should never be able to be described as "brainless."

    - Eul's cost increased to 3000 gold. Cast range reduced to 425. Movement speed reduced to +25.

    Range nerfs combined with cost increase and stat nerfs should balance the item out and make it less of an automatic, brainless decision for heroes that can abuse it. 425 cast range is pretty short, meaning it will be very important to have some kind of initiation tool to get into range if you want to faceroll heroes with Eul's combos. Blink dagger would be the most common choice, but that's a 5300 gold investment that consumes two item slots and provides relatively few stats for the cost. In other words, buying and using Eul's would have an actual fucking opportunity cost.

    - Blink Dagger cooldown increased to 16 sec. Blink dagger cooldown does not continue while Blink Dagger is broken. Tinker's Rearm will reset core Blink Dagger cooldown but will not affect a Blink Dagger's broken cooldown. Blink Dagger will always blink up to 1200 distance, even if targeted outside the item's maximum range.

    Making blink dagger more clearly an initiation-only item for fighting purposes and nerfs it a bit as a general map mobility tool without increasing gold cost or making it have a mana cost again. In order to be able to blink out of a fight, you have to avoid taking any damage for the full duration of the blinker's remaining cooldown, not just dip into the trees and blink away to safety. Blinker is still hideously overpowered but has become overshadowed by glimmer cape and cheatstick; if those items got properly nerfed, it'd just be a return to the blink dagger meta again if blinker wasn't simultaneously nerfed. This nerf directly targets heroes that buy blinker for mid-fight mobility while still leaving it just as potent for blink-reliant initiators, especially Sand King and Earthshaker (probably the only two heroes in the game that are reliant on having a Blink Dagger to be able to use their ults past ~20 mins.)


    Some item-related hero changes I think need to happen:

    - Lycan minions can be slowed during Shapeshift. They still get the 650 move speed, but can now be slowed like normal units.

    This makes Necrobook less of a no-loss use for Lycan, since it's now possible to slow and kill the necrominions to cash in on their huge XP and bounties if you're chasing the Lycan away. Every single other Necrobook user has to think about when and where to summon the necrominions to avoid feeding them (getting the pair is a whopping 400 gold and XP... it's like feeding a hero kill), there is zero reason Lycan shouldn't also have to do this. Necrobook is not overpowered, but Lycan's interaction with it is, because the massive bounties for the minions is the item's primary balancing factor and currently Lycan can basically ignore it at will.

    - Anti-Mage's Mana Break is no longer a unique attack modifier. Mana Void radius reduced to 375.

    AM stands to become a lot more interesting hero if he receives the Ursa treatment. Mana Void may end up needing to be nerfed once this happens, simply because they've been constantly buffing Mana Void so that AM can actually have gameplay relevance before he's spent 25 mins afk farming and an AM that suddenly has item build options might become overpowered when combined with a very obviously (and necessarily) overpowered Mana Void. Desolator might become too strong on him, however, since Mana Break is physical damage. Probably no worse than Desolator on a Weaver, though.

    - Slark's Shadow Dance passive now has a timing window of 1.50 sec (up from 0.50 sec) before the passive effects take hold after leaving enemy vision or taking damage. Activating Shadow Dance causes the passive effects to begin instantly.

    Direct nerf to Slark's use of Shadowblade, which is probably the single most gamebreaking hero-item interaction in the game right now. Slark is supposed to be a slippery hero, but Shadowblade makes it far too easy to escape after you blunder into a bad situation, especially on top of Shadow Dance active. This change nerfs Shadowblade as a defensive item but still leaves it effective as a roaming and attack item, and also makes escaping less effortless for him while also encouraging more tactical use of active Shadow Dance. There will now be a severe (most likely fatal) penalty for brainless Shadow Dance use. Probably nerfs Slark's jungling efficiency, but he shouldn't be a strong jungler anyway, not when he's so good at killing heroes with zero farm.
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    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
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  9. #18689
    I don't think deso am would be very good, skadi am though...

  10. #18690
    Id rather not turn dota into hots, i like my op heroes and op items in specific situations

  11. #18691
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Item nerfs that need to happen:

    Anti-Mage's Mana Break is no longer a unique attack modifier. Mana Void radius reduced to 375.

    AM stands to become a lot more interesting hero if he receives the Ursa treatment. Mana Void may end up needing to be nerfed once this happens, simply because they've been constantly buffing Mana Void so that AM can actually have gameplay relevance before he's spent 25 mins afk farming and an AM that suddenly has item build options might become overpowered when combined with a very obviously (and necessarily) overpowered Mana Void. Desolator might become too strong on him, however, since Mana Break is physical damage. Probably no worse than Desolator on a Weaver, though.
    Nah thats the sad state AM is in really, even with the strong mana void his starting stats and his scaling is just not strong enough to man fight multiple other heroes and many carry can outright destroy him 1v1 so easily. I think he does needs the orbs to stack and he wouldnt even be close to OP.

  12. #18692
    I don't think AM needs buffs

  13. #18693
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M1r4g3 View Post
    Id rather not turn dota into hots, i like my op heroes and op items in specific situations
    The issue is that these item-hero combinations, or items themselves, are so overpowered that they negate huge chunks of gameplay. Landing a Light Strike Array or Split Earth consistently should require a lot of timing and prediction, or assistance from teammates. With Eul's, that element of gameplay - prediction, coordination, etc - goes right out the window because you can just push your cyclone button and get a guaranteed stun. With current blink dagger, you can overextend and put yourself into bad situations, but all you need to do is dip into the trees and you can blink down a cliff and you're home free - the requirement for positioning and intelligent engagements is mostly nullified once you have that item. With glimmer cape, you can overextend like crazy and suffer no punishment, because even if they dust you, you still get Huskar levels of magic resistance.

    Lycan doesn't have to think about when to use Necrobook like other heroes do because he can just run away with his ultra haste rune and there's no risk of feeding them.

    Slark doesn't have to worry about engaging intelligently because all he needs to do is press his shadowblade button and half a second later he has 522 ms and a free Heart regen going, and he doesn't have to worry about dust because he has a built-in mechanic to deal with it.

    And so on and so forth. Items should be powerful, but they should not be so powerful they allow you to ignore gameplay mechanics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  14. #18694
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Item nerfs that need to happen:
    - Glimmer Cape
    - Eul's
    - Blink Dagger
    I'd say Glimmer Cape is fine as it is now. Its got a heavy mana cost to offset its power and the stats don't provide a whole lot of benefit to the people who'd usually look to buy it, Int based supports are mostly quite fragile so the extra 20 spell resistance is mostly goes to waste - They're going to get blown up no matter what most of the time. The Attack Speed provides almost nothing of value to these kinds of Hero really. There are a couple of exceptions where Str Heroes can make decent use of it, like Spirit Breaker, but they really suffer with the Mana cost.
    The bonus spell resist is where it really shines, 55% is a lot. But by the time supports have a Glimmer carries are usually most of the way to a BKB. It can also be outclassed here by a Pipe if there's a lot of AoE spells to deal with, but that one is more situational.

    And when all is said and done, it also suffers from the same problem as Invisibility on Heroes, its very easy to counter with Dust and Wards. You may not be able to instagib someone even with Dusts, but they're still vulnrable to just being attacked to death. If you're buying it instead of a Shadow Blade or a BKB to prevent channeled ults being interrupted, dust/wards still reveals them and lets you stun.

    I'm sure I mentioned this before, but any serious nerfs to Eul's is just going to have people rushing to buy Atos as a replacement. I'm fine with that, but we then have the situation where Eul's is a totally "useless" item that no one ever buys, and I'm not okay with that. There has to be a niche for both of them in game, otherwise you might as well just remove one of them entirely. It means that any change to Eul's is going to have to push it into a different niche than just making skillshots easy to land and, unfortunately, that is probably going to require more than just a stat/cost adjustment.

    As for Blink Dagger...The problem is that its required to make up for deficiencies in a Heroes kit. Its fine saying that its only absolutely required for Sandking and Earthshaker to ult, but what about other Initiators? The only ones that can reliably get a team fight going without it are Tusk, Clockwerk, Centaur, Naga and Void. Possiably Treant and Titan, but those depend more on the other team being caught off guard than them having a reliable "go!" skill. You could also include Invoker here too, but thats very dependent on him building to initiate and most don't. It cannot be removed or nerfed to near uselessness without indirectly nerfing a lot of the Heroes that depend on it to function. I agree, it should be an initiation only item, but your proposed changed wouldn't solve much. It may stop people like Sven or WK being able to use it as a crutch mobility tool, but its also not going to prevent Brewmaster, Puck or Invoker from being able to abuse it to escape either.

    What would probably work better would be to remove the Blink Dagger as an item all together. Instead have a limited availability consumable item, for a suitable cost of course, that has the same effect as a Blink Dagger does currently. It will mean people are able to Blink around much sooner, but the fact that doing so is going to have a very real gold cost both for yourself and a potentially damaging effect on the rest of your team might be enough to deter people from spamming it as they please. It'll also mean that the more you use a Blink, the more its going to cost you, kind of like a Blinking Tax. It'll also going to mean that the total cost for a team having access to Blink is going to be, on the whole, higher but without having to pay for it all in one lump sum. So even when games are going totally horrendously for you, certain Heroes aren't going to be left none-functional.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I don't think AM needs buffs
    His big problem is that he needs a team built around him. One that will allow him the time and space to get the farm he needs and even then its a bit of a gamble when there are other Heroes who could fit in to that sort of a team better, like Medusa. AM's prefered style of play got pushed out of the meta, and has been pushed further and further out with recent changes to comeback mechanics, creep bounties and so on. Maybe he could use one or two small changes to help bring him back in, but we probably won't be seeing much of him for the forseeable future.

  15. #18695
    I got called a bad Tiny last night and I cried only for 20 minutes.

    But seriously, how would you guys even build Tiny as a "carry"? I mean, personally I have a really hard time picturing him working as a full blown carry, more of a semi-carry, but hey, when the rest of your team instalocks their heroes basically and then demands someone else plays a specific hero.

  16. #18696
    Agha, Yasha, AC, you can get in MoM, Moonshard, Dagger, build the Yasha into Manta or SnY

  17. #18697
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    The issue is that these item-hero combinations, or items themselves, are so overpowered that they negate huge chunks of gameplay. Landing a Light Strike Array or Split Earth consistently should require a lot of timing and prediction, or assistance from teammates. With Eul's, that element of gameplay - prediction, coordination, etc - goes right out the window because you can just push your cyclone button and get a guaranteed stun. With current blink dagger, you can overextend and put yourself into bad situations, but all you need to do is dip into the trees and you can blink down a cliff and you're home free - the requirement for positioning and intelligent engagements is mostly nullified once you have that item. With glimmer cape, you can overextend like crazy and suffer no punishment, because even if they dust you, you still get Huskar levels of magic resistance.

    Lycan doesn't have to think about when to use Necrobook like other heroes do because he can just run away with his ultra haste rune and there's no risk of feeding them.

    Slark doesn't have to worry about engaging intelligently because all he needs to do is press his shadowblade button and half a second later he has 522 ms and a free Heart regen going, and he doesn't have to worry about dust because he has a built-in mechanic to deal with it.

    And so on and so forth. Items should be powerful, but they should not be so powerful they allow you to ignore gameplay mechanics.

    You're ignoring the fact that those items have a cost attributed to them. They don't come free. They cost gold and an item slot. That's gold that players who don't have issues with over extending or skill shots can use to get better items.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  18. #18698
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    I got called a bad Tiny last night and I cried only for 20 minutes.

    But seriously, how would you guys even build Tiny as a "carry"? I mean, personally I have a really hard time picturing him working as a full blown carry, more of a semi-carry, but hey, when the rest of your team instalocks their heroes basically and then demands someone else plays a specific hero.
    ... how could you possibly struggle to see Tiny working as a carry? He gets like 300 free base damage and bonus building damage from his ult + Agh's. Treads-Agh's-AC-Crit and you can go toe-to-toe with just about anyone.

  19. #18699
    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    ... how could you possibly struggle to see Tiny working as a carry? He gets like 300 free base damage and bonus building damage from his ult + Agh's. Treads-Agh's-AC-Crit and you can go toe-to-toe with just about anyone.
    Because he has no abilities really to support that I guess? Like, I can see how he could be a threat, but like, he has nothing like PA or Riki to stay glued on someone or maybe escape even, or the ability to kill someone quickly unless you get a huge amount of farm, since you'd need the attack speed since his is rather slow, but that causes him the damage loss if you rush attack speed over like Aghs. I just can't see a team picking Tiny and saying "Thats our core carry", he'd do better at just giving kills to a team mate I think.

    Granted, maybe he is picked as a core carry, but I don't think I've ever seen that, usually he's an initiator if anything.

  20. #18700
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Because he has no abilities really to support that I guess? Like, I can see how he could be a threat, but like, he has nothing like PA or Riki to stay glued on someone or maybe escape even, or the ability to kill someone quickly unless you get a huge amount of farm, since you'd need the attack speed since his is rather slow, but that causes him the damage loss if you rush attack speed over like Aghs. I just can't see a team picking Tiny and saying "Thats our core carry", he'd do better at just giving kills to a team mate I think.

    Granted, maybe he is picked as a core carry, but I don't think I've ever seen that, usually he's an initiator if anything.
    I mean idk man you must have never watched a game of pro DotA in your life or something. Tiny isn't even picked to manfight other people in the first place; he's picked with Io to fuck people up with Relocate-AvaToss in between farming enough items that he can turn rax into dust in the span of seconds.

    He's a core. Shouldn't be played as anything else in a serious game. End of story. His supposed inability to "stay glued on people" is irrelevant (and in reality not an issue since you almost always get Blink on a Tiny that has to do any sort of fighting) when you pick him with Io and Relocate on top of people and pick him to slay buildings rather than heroes in the first place.

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