[Megathread] DotA 2

[LiiLoSNK]

Dazzle is great for ganking and still provides top tier teamfight even with minimal points in wave/grave. Your 95% figure is retarded.

To suggest that 95% of games require you to skill into wave first implies that you play on some ethereal realm of trash where dazzle is seen only as a baby sitting push machine.

Is your team pushing/farming? Skill wave first. Is your team ganking/shutting down enemy farm? Skill poison touch first.

It would take a retard of the absolute highest degree to disagree with that statement. Well, either a massive retard or some 2k trashbag. Like I said, it will always be situational.

[Charge me Doctor]

You don't need to get rank 1 poison touch to harass enemy, heal is enough because yes, you leave the bruise with more health. But if you fight someone non-melee - poison touch gives you 2-3 free autos on enemy when he retreats. It's just a case of what you need in your situation

[LiiLoSNK]

Wtf is "situational", did you make that word up?

[Longview]

guys, can we please not call other people/players "retards" or saying that they are trash/low rating.

the last two or three pages is filled with that stuff, and i doubt anyone wants to read it.

[Deleted]

Dazzle is great for ganking and still provides top tier teamfight even with minimal points in wave/grave. Your 95% figure is retarded.

To suggest that 95% of games require you to skill into wave first implies that you play on some ethereal realm of trash where dazzle is seen only as a baby sitting push machine.

Is your team pushing/farming? Skill wave first. Is your team ganking/shutting down enemy farm? Skill poison touch first.

It would take a retard of the absolute highest degree to disagree with that statement. Well, either a massive retard or some 2k trashbag. Like I said, it will always be situational.

I think you are the 2k player, seeing your posts you seem obsessed with it.
if the team is farming you might take the 1st point in poison touch, its just retarded to state you should always take wave first if team is pushing/farming.
If you want to shut down enemy farm you can also take wave first to keep you and your allies at higher health so you can get more autoattacks in because you are not at the risk of dying.

Your 100% statements are even more dumb than my 95% ones.
You contradict yourself, first you say: always take this when x, always thake that when y. 2 sentences later you say it will ALWAYS be situational.
If you agressive trilane you prob want to skill wave over touch since it heals more heroes thus being more effective, if you are agressive duo you might wanna take 1 lvl in poison touch. It also depends if you are facing solo, duo or trilane.

[LiiLoSNK]

I obviously meant that you are going to want to focus skill points into maxing those skills mentioned first based on the situation, not "Get This as your very first skill @ level 1". You're purposely misunderstanding my posts so that you can try to reinforce your brilliant "There's only 1 way to build dazzle" position.

How is wave going to net you a kill better than touch when you have a bh/bara ganking the enemy offlane or their mid? It's almost like ganking spells are better for when you have a ganking team.

Hell I can even think of situations where you might wanna max grave first for the cooldown reduction. It's truly sad seeing players stuck with the cookie cutter mindset on how heroes are meant to be played. Thankfully I never have to play with/against you.

[Deleted]

I obviously meant that you are going to want to focus skill points into maxing those skills mentioned first based on the situation, not "Get This as your very first skill @ level 1". You're purposely misunderstanding my posts so that you can try to reinforce your brilliant "There's only 1 way to build dazzle" position.

How is wave going to net you a kill better than touch when you have a bh/bara ganking the enemy offlane or their mid? It's almost like ganking spells are better for when you have a ganking team.

not really but ok. Also i think you might have missed the word 'max' in the first post you reacted to me. I never said there is only one way to build dazzle, so no im not purposely misunderstanding you, I don't even know why I would..... cause i never even made that statement.

So now you use one specific situation to try and justify the generalization of it. Contradicting yourself AGAIN. WHen did i say that in that specific situation x or y skill is better? oh wait I didn't. ALl you say is one uncomprehensive string of woven together words used randomly to your benefit. I never said there is only one build for dazzle, I said you never want to MAX poison touch first(max means putting 4 skill points in it before putting 4 skill points in other spells). Read before you go on a spree of trying to insult people, calling people trash, contradicting yourself at every turn.

[LiiLoSNK]

"95% of times other skills are better" pretty much implies that there's 1 way the hero should be played most of the time. Which is dumb. Really dumb.

I'm not using one specific situation. I just listed an incredibly common situation. Roaming, ganking, and harassing are all doable on a dazzle. This is not "one situation". You say "You never want to max poison touch first?" like you have no grasp of how the hero works. You can't think of one situation where having a stun on an already overpowered teamfighter would be a good thing? Weird how I commonly see this type of play from dazzles. They swing by mid @ 4-5 with only 2/3 PT, toss a long ranged poison touch, then his mid is free to dive until a tp is forced or he kills the enemy mid with grave to prevent anyone from dying. It's a massive slow/dot that can make the difference between a kill and a survival.

Please tell me how I've contradicted myself. I'm pretty sure it's just you not understanding how to read.

[Lysah]

if you want to zone someone out, your heal will be more mana efficient so u can harras more/longer. The minimal damage poison touch does is not worth it most of the time. For ganking poison touch is better but you might think of picking another hero if you want to gank a lot. if you think that the heal is not inderectly used to harass you are wrong, it can even be used directly to harass. Sounds like you don't think about it to much

edit: If you are at higher health you can get more autoattacks in and since his basic attack dmg is pretty high thats more worth it in most casees.

Minimal damage >
288 total damage based on physical, can be boosted higher with medallion/ult (holy shit, his ult actually SYNERGIZES WITH HIS POISON TOUCH WAOW)

7.3 sec damage duration 7 sec cooldown which means literally 100% uptime on DoT, so permanent blink dagger disable
33/66% slows followed by a STUN, with pretty high uptime considering the low cooldown

Poison touch so fucking bad literally not worth skill points over the extra 20 (WAOW) health that points in wave give you. Let's not forget the mana cost of wave also goes up with each point, so you don't actually get a full 20 health benefit. The spell goes from 1 health per mana to 1.27 health per mana for 3 more skill points. PLEASE MAX THIS SKILL FIRST 2K MMR PUBS LOL


I think you can tell how excited this conversation makes me. Literally giddy.

If you don't plan on maxing ptouch, then yeah, don't get it. It's not a skill that is very worth a value point unless the enemy is spamming blink daggers and you don't have another way to stop them.

Oh, and don't even get me started on shallow grave. Putting points into this skill does literally nothing, it's the exact same spell it used to be.

[LiiLoSNK]

Worked against Eosin yesterday, but he's zephyr so it's not saying much #roamingdazzle #2kthings

1698429101

[Deleted]

Minimal damage >
288 total damage based on physical, can be boosted higher with medallion/ult (holy shit, his ult actually SYNERGIZES WITH HIS POISON TOUCH WAOW)

7.3 sec damage duration 7 sec cooldown which means literally 100% uptime on DoT, so permanent blink dagger disable
33/66% slows followed by a STUN, with pretty high uptime considering the low cooldown

Poison touch so fucking bad literally not worth skill points over the extra 20 (WAOW) health that points in wave give you. Let's not forget the mana cost of wave also goes up with each point, so you don't actually get a full 20 health benefit. The spell goes from 1 health per mana to 1.27 health per mana for 3 more skill points. PLEASE MAX THIS SKILL FIRST 2K MMR PUBS LOL


I think you can tell how excited this conversation makes me. Literally giddy.

If you don't plan on maxing ptouch, then yeah, don't get it. It's not a skill that is very worth a value point unless the enemy is spamming blink daggers and you don't have another way to stop them.

Oh, and don't even get me started on shallow grave. Putting points into this skill does literally nothing, it's the exact same spell it used to be.

and now take into consideration the mana it costs to use both poison touch and heal instead of using heal only. Yeah ill take my chances with only using heal. permanent blink dagger disable? zoning out doesnt really matter that much anymore by the time blink daggers are picked up.

You only take into consideration the dmg it does but do not include any other factors. So yes overal i think its not worth it. You remind me of those supports that chases the eneme to their tower, take 2 tower hits then dies (prob gives up fb) and blames carry for you dying.

[Charge me Doctor]

i soetimes go 4/3/1/1 and don't feel bad for it

[Lysah]

and now take into consideration the mana it costs to use both poison touch and heal instead of using heal only. Yeah ill take my chances with only using heal. permanent blink dagger disable? zoning out doesnt really matter that much anymore by the time blink daggers are picked up.

You only take into consideration the dmg it does but do not include any other factors. So yes overal i think its not worth it. You remind me of those supports that chases the eneme to their tower, take 2 tower hits then dies (prob gives up fb) and blames carry for you dying.

Don't need to heal when enemy is dead, simple truth of DotA.

I'll be fair, though, I know why the pros skip poison touch. Mostly, it's because at their level the laning phase means nothing. It always amuses me to listen to the casters going "X is beating Y so hard mid! 42 CS to 28! So much outfarm!" Yeah, that's like a couple hundred gold, it's nothing. The first 10 minutes of the game are largely meaningless in the professional setting. Even if you could push out the enemy lane completely as Dazzle, they would just roam, team fights would happen, a couple of kills and they'd regain everything you pressured them out of. It's just the nature of 6.84.

With that said though, the same is not true in pubs. Being a passive support and just sitting back and healing your carry as he tries to fight an otherwise 1v1 or 1v2 lane is a great way to get steamrolled. Professional teams have the composure and teamwork to come back from slow starts and make team fights successful, pubs definitely do not. A Dazzle without his only nuke is just begging to get shit on by a superior hero like Phoenix. Most offlaners would have no issue 1v1ing a Dazzle trying to harass with no poison touch, and if you pull your carry to make it a 1v2 they just denied you farm without even going near the creeps. There's a reason the pros spend 99% of their time AFK in the trees as dazzle.

[M1r4g3]

i actually think in the majority of pub games maxing poison is better

[Deleted]

"95% of times other skills are better" pretty much implies that there's 1 way the hero should be played most of the time. Which is dumb. Really dumb.

I'm not using one specific situation. I just listed an incredibly common situation. Roaming, ganking, and harassing are all doable on a dazzle. This is not "one situation". You say "You never want to max poison touch first?" like you have no grasp of how the hero works. You can't think of one situation where having a stun on an already overpowered teamfighter would be a good thing? Weird how I commonly see this type of play from dazzles. They swing by mid @ 4-5 with only 2/3 PT, toss a long ranged poison touch, then his mid is free to dive until a tp is forced or he kills the enemy mid with grave to prevent anyone from dying. It's a massive slow/dot that can make the difference between a kill and a survival.

Please tell me how I've contradicted myself. I'm pretty sure it's just you not understanding how to read.

there are countless situation while ganking while your heal may be more effective (combined with any form of lockdown), stun/immobilize the other hero walk to them while autoattacking witht your ally and use your wave. So you saying: skill heal when farming/pushing, skill touch when ganking doesn't imply you always do that in those situations? I can make up a ton of situations where you are ganking where wave is more effective than touch.

So you can imply things of my posts but not vice versa? kinda hypocrite

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Don't need to heal when enemy is dead, simple truth of DotA.

I'll be fair, though, I know why the pros skip poison touch. Mostly, it's because at their level the laning phase means nothing. It always amuses me to listen to the casters going "X is beating Y so hard mid! 42 CS to 28! So much outfarm!" Yeah, that's like a couple hundred gold, it's nothing. The first 10 minutes of the game are largely meaningless in the professional setting. Even if you could push out the enemy lane completely as Dazzle, they would just roam, team fights would happen, a couple of kills and they'd regain everything you pressured them out of. It's just the nature of 6.84.

With that said though, the same is not true in pubs. Being a passive support and just sitting back and healing your carry as he tries to fight an otherwise 1v1 or 1v2 lane is a great way to get steamrolled. Professional teams have the composure and teamwork to come back from slow starts and make team fights successful, pubs definitely do not. A Dazzle without his only nuke is just begging to get shit on by a superior hero like Phoenix. Most offlaners would have no issue 1v1ing a Dazzle trying to harass with no poison touch, and if you pull your carry to make it a 1v2 they just denied you farm without even going near the creeps. There's a reason the pros spend 99% of their time AFK in the trees as dazzle.

that few hundred gold is nothing? it might be the difference between having treads or normal boots, mek or no mek. magic stick or not. can go on and on. From here on i stop replying to you because you think those 'minor' things dont impact the game at all, while it may have a huge impact if a gank/teamfight fails or succeeds. The difference between wave dmg and poison touch is also that u cant tango out of lethal dmg cause wave is instantly and touch is not.

Dont need to heal when enemy is dead? what about the other 4 enemies who might respond to the gank? You think wave is only used to heal your carry? jesus.....i explained before that i use the wave to stay at higher health and thus i can harras more because im not in risk of dying or something. 99% of the time in the trees by pros? pay attention please, what most of them do is this: at the start they try to box a hero out (in case of a solo hero on safe lane). When the wave is too far pushed or when it is not possible to harras anymore they go to jungle and pull, preferably pull 2nd camp as well.

Goodbye sir. #tunnelvision

[LiiLoSNK]

It's saying there are situations where both are viable and situations where 1 skill is often more valuable than the other. I was implying that you were making up rubbish figures like 95% to backup your own opinions, literally seconds after you just told someone else that they don't know how to use stats.

[Kralljin]

i actually think in the majority of pub games maxing poison is better

Personally i think it is better not to pick Dazzle in Pubs at all, unless you mute at least 2 people on your team who seem to have unrealistic expectations about the range of Shallow Grave.

Main reason why i stopped playing Dazzle, some people stand somewhere totally out of position, get nuked by a Lina combo within 1-2secs and then comes the obligatory "GRAVE?!" comment in chat.

General problem if you pick a supp with defensive skills, same shit on Abaddon, 3 people get nuked / stunned, 2 people will call you retarded for not healing / shielding them.

[Lysah]

Goodbye sir. #tunnelvision

I look forward to your long list of replays of expert, professional level supporting. I am ready to learn how to play Dazzle, please teach me, stickzz-sama!

[LiiLoSNK]

i actually think in the majority of pub games maxing poison is better

Because you have a better chance of getting something out of it most of the time, like harass/kills/space, rather than putting all of your eggs in the carry babysit basket. If I'm 5 spotting dazzle, I'd rather have wave/grave for deathballs when a lesh and undying is on my team. If I'm trying to shut down an offlane, especially a melee offlane like clock/timber, I'm gonna poison touch the hell out of them. Any lane you swing into can benefit from it quite a bit.

[Deleted]

It's saying there are situations where both are viable and situations where 1 skill is often more valuable than the other. I was implying that you were making up rubbish figures like 95% to backup your own opinions, literally seconds after you just told someone else that they don't know how to use stats.

You started this discussion by saying that i said there is only one build. I never said that, thats what u make out of it.

and you say: when you are ganking you take touch = when ganking you 100% take touch
when farming/pushing you take heal = when farming/pushing you 100% take heal
Just cause you leave out the % doesn't mean you arent doing the same thing. You are implying on my posts and I do on yours. The world spins 'round and 'round.
Difference is im not a hypocrite about it. Stop flaming me for the same thing you are doing.

Shall we stop it now?

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I look forward to your long list of replays of expert, professional level supporting. I am ready to learn how to play Dazzle, please teach me, stickzz-sama!

never said im some kind of expert, what I do know is that i take more into consideration than damage/killing.
Don't know how you can even say that few hundred gold doesn't matter....

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Personally i think it is better not to pick Dazzle in Pubs at all, unless you mute at least 2 people on your team who seem to have unrealistic expectations about the range of Shallow Grave.

Main reason why i stopped playing Dazzle, some people stand somewhere totally out of position, get nuked by a Lina combo within 1-2secs and then comes the obligatory "GRAVE?!" comment in chat.

General problem if you pick a supp with defensive skills, same shit on Abaddon, 3 people get nuked / stunned, 2 people will call you retarded for not healing / shielding them.

agreed, they seem to think that you have haste 24/7, unlimited mana and global spell range. Most often they just do that to justify them screwing up/being out of position. I much prefer WD over Dazzle.