[Megathread] DotA 2

[Bapestar]

He's pretty bad. He's essentially a support, but since he has agility primary people think he's a carry. He certainly COULD carry, and being able to send clones at your base and do damage and you can't do anything about it is pretty strong. Problem is, he has no farm potential outside of a second midas. He has no lane phase, two of his spells are essentially invalidated by the presence of creeps and the third only helps keep him alive for a few seconds if you dive. His ult costs an insane amount of life and mana at level 1, so he can't really spam it just to farm. This means he's bound to lose his lane if he's the "carry," making it impossible to keep up in net worth for sure.

What he's good at - picking people off in the jungle. Great counter jungler, great roamer, that's how people should play him but nobody does. Have another support to help CC and set up wraiths, tower dive and use field to survive, etc. Put them in a position where they can't avoid flux because they have to run away. He should probably focus on support items as well. Double Atos would be insane for a fairly cheap price, sheep obviously, force staff if you're a pro. Ideally you want to sit behind a real carry and be ready to drop field on him in fights, as well as spamming item advantage. BoT + nec3 is good as well, you can send a clone to push another lane quickly while you are sieging enemy.

You won't see very many people playing this hero well, ideal use of him is going to rely on spamming BoTs to split push which will take the dedication of a meepo player to do well. Just like meepo, we're going to see the hero is trash in the hands of 99% of the population while a few people make it look good. I just wish people would stop picking him "just to see what he does" in my games.

Well you kind of contradict yourself when you say he's pretty bad and later say hes good in the hands of good players. I think it's unfair or not a good comparison to Meepo tbh. I'm average at microing and am able to play Zet decently, don't think I will ever be able to play an average meepo. It's still too early to know the impact Zet will have.

[Sorcereria]

For sure Q will be scaled down properly based on level... Easiest first bloods ever.

[StrawberryZebra]

He's pretty bad. He's essentially a support, but since he has agility primary people think he's a carry.
-snip-
What he's good at - picking people off in the jungle. Great counter jungler, great roamer, that's how people should play him but nobody does.

He wouldn't be the only Agi support though, Venge and Veno are both great at it. Not babysitting so much, but when you're hunting for kills they're great to have on your team. They do get picked as carries from time to time though. Unfortunately Arc Warden's base damage and scaling are both very low, and while he has his field to help, it doesn't totally overwrite poor stats. Venge at least has good base stats, stat growths and good scaling with items, so it can work well in the right situation. Arc is effectlively an Int hero with the Agi tag, I've yet to see him be effective as a solo carry.

What he really wants to do is catch people alone wandering through the river/jungle so he can murder them. All of his skills are themed around it. He's certainly not going to get good Fluxes off in lane if his opponents are smart about it, but picking someone off alone its going to deal full damage for certain. I expect its the kind of knowledge which will trickle down slowly over time. He is a new Hero afterall it should start clearing up, hopefully, when there are a couple of up to date and accurate guides for him. I saw all kinds of bizzare items and play styles when Abbadon was new. Come to think of it I still people still build Abbadon badly, but thats more because he's a bit of an odd hero who can make use of pretty much anything he can get his hands on.

Seriously, people, can we stop calling Blink Dagger "Blinker"? It's not a fucking turn signal on a car or a person with dysfunctionally hyperactive orbital muscles, it's a dagger that lets you teleport. "Blink" or "Blink Dagger", not "Blinker" TYVM before I lose my fucking mind.

Are we allowed to shorten it to just BD? No, okay. Hence forth, this item shall be refered to as Blink Daggeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh!!

[Deleted]

I can definitely acquiesce to exclusively referring to it via the Bane soundclip. I love Bane and Bane culture.

[RobertoCarlos]

I kinda like the OD changes. Now pub stomping is even easier. He also never seems to run out of mana now

[EqualWin]

blink is fine, also theres no reason a hero can blink out of the fight to safety. urn, oov? any dot. unless its puck/ta/timed euls. I think the items is fine, the trade off is that you have an item that gives you no stats and "useless" in fights because you can't use it unlike sb etc.



also after playing few games. well idk the game on radiant feels so different. also so much farm for a hero like am.

[Deleted]

I feel like teams that don't have an Invoker player are in for a really fucking bad time this patch. The more I play the hero the more I feel like he's blatantly overpowered and there's just no fucking way Alacrity at lvl 2 is remotely balanced. I almost feel like it'd be better for balance if it functioned like Deafening Blast and required 1 of each instance to Invoke or something.

If I were a drafter I'd not like the prospect of having to first-ban Invoker every single game against Invoker teams. It'd be CDEC at TI5 all over again except honestly current Invoker is infinitely more versatile and cancerous in the hands of a good Invoker player than Leshrac ever was.

[Lysah]

Seriously, people, can we stop calling Blink Dagger "Blinker"? It's not a fucking turn signal on a car or a person with dysfunctionally hyperactive orbital muscles, it's a dagger that lets you teleport. "Blink" or "Blink Dagger", not "Blinker" TYVM before I lose my fucking mind.

Don't be silly, I was talking about Antimage, a hero who blinks, therefore he is a blink-er. Not the item in this case.

Well you kind of contradict yourself when you say he's pretty bad and later say hes good in the hands of good players. I think it's unfair or not a good comparison to Meepo tbh. I'm average at microing and am able to play Zet decently, don't think I will ever be able to play an average meepo. It's still too early to know the impact Zet will have.

Meepo is a terrible hero that some people make work. Any hero can perform well in extremely niche situations that perfectly play into its strengths. Top teams will know when to utilize the hero, and top players will be able to perform this role and win. Everyone else will just lose all the time.

What he really wants to do is catch people alone wandering through the river/jungle so he can murder them. All of his skills are themed around it.

I agree, it should be next to impossible to fight with him over a rune, and yet I have yet to see a Zet even try to go for runes in games I've played since the patch. Doubly hilarious since every rune would be two full bottles for him used properly with his ultimate.

I feel like teams that don't have an Invoker player are in for a really fucking bad time this patch. The more I play the hero the more I feel like he's blatantly overpowered and there's just no fucking way Alacrity at lvl 2 is remotely balanced. I almost feel like it'd be better for balance if it functioned like Deafening Blast and required 1 of each instance to Invoke or something.

If I were a drafter I'd not like the prospect of having to first-ban Invoker every single game against Invoker teams. It'd be CDEC at TI5 all over again except honestly current Invoker is infinitely more versatile and cancerous in the hands of a good Invoker player than Leshrac ever was.

I agree and disagree at the same time. Right click Invoker is extremely strong, I would agree he is borderline overpowered at this point. However, he suffers from zero-steroid syndrome, and he is very slow on average. Even if you can kill one hero in three hits, you will just get focused and blown up while you are trying. I have gone on godlike streaks in plenty of games and still managed to fail to carry bad teams, something I would find much easier on a hero like AM or Jugg. I don't know if it's just a product of those games being especially bad, or I'm just not greedy enough with Invoker yet, or what, but I feel like he just doesn't actually close games out like other carries, despite his absurd damage and CC potential. Also, once the enemies have BKB you can't really fight them at all unless you are extremely farmed with BKB/daedalus/etc yourself.

I am very interested to see a professional team go an alacrity build with the hero and stop being a bunch of little girls with the Wex build. It's about time the public saw an Invoker mid kill the enemy QoP at level 5 with alacrity in 3 hits from full health.

[RobertoCarlos]

If anyone can on the professional scene, it would be sumail

[Deleted]

If anyone can on the professional scene, it would be sumail

I've literally never seen Suma1L play QE, or even a WE variant. If they were to ever pick an Invoker and play it QE, I'm liable to think RTZ would be playing out of the safelane, which quite frankly is where QE is best anyway in my opinion.

The real issue with him (having played him a fair bit this patch now, 10ish games total since the lvl 1 Invoke change) is how good he is with a coordinated team. You're completely correct that he struggles to carry useless teams solo in pubs because sooner or later people learn to just blow everything on you and kill you, and the hero generally doesn't get items like Mek that would otherwise encourage your team to group up and end early (something QE is otherwise REALLY FUCKING GOOD AT), but with a coordinated team that gives you even half-decent working conditions the hero is fucking absurd right now. He's particularly fucking broken in those rare games where you get to KS with Sunstrike once every couple of minutes while hitting creeps in complete safety.

It's a testament to how fucking dumb the hero is that you can dominate (and handily, I might add) early fights completely with Alacrity and Cold Snap while rushing a Midas and BoTs. The only hero that comes remotely close to being able to do the same is probably Ember, and Ember can't even do that any more if there's an Oracle in the game.

[PizzaSHARK]

Just pick your own blinker, antimage has never been happier in his life than this patch. This hero is probably due for some nerfs soon so better get your free MMR while it lasts.

AM does seem too strong for some reason. Maybe longer cast time or cooldown on his blink?

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I feel like teams that don't have an Invoker player are in for a really fucking bad time this patch. The more I play the hero the more I feel like he's blatantly overpowered and there's just no fucking way Alacrity at lvl 2 is remotely balanced. I almost feel like it'd be better for balance if it functioned like Deafening Blast and required 1 of each instance to Invoke or something.

If I were a drafter I'd not like the prospect of having to first-ban Invoker every single game against Invoker teams. It'd be CDEC at TI5 all over again except honestly current Invoker is infinitely more versatile and cancerous in the hands of a good Invoker player than Leshrac ever was.

Cold Snap definitely needs a nerf. 1000 cast range, instant cast point, instantly stuns, and stuns again every ~0.6 sec from ANY source of damage (read: Urn of Shadows), there's no fucking way that spell isn't completely broken. It's like Enigma Malefice except better in every possible way. Like even at base level it stuns for 0.4 sec every 0.6 sec or so.

I think his Tornado needs to be nerfed, too. The range and speed on that shit is just ridiculous, even at low levels.

I'm kind of curious what made Invoker so much stronger this patch. I remember seeing plenty of Invokers in 685 and never thought they were broken, but he's very clearly broken in this patch.

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Omniknight confirmed best MMR pushing hero

[Mellomania]

Drow aghs + a few mjollnirs

[Roshar]

ODPixel and Winter casting the closing ceremony of WCA was the best part of the tournament tbh:

[PizzaSHARK]

It's really amazing how little skill Invoker takes to play now. Got sent mid as Lesh after buying support items against an Invoker starting with null talisman who then proceeds to miss every last hit and get denied constantly. Continues to fuck up by screwing up EMP timing, but it doesn't matter because Cold Snap lasts 10 years and has 1000 range and no cast time, so who cares if you miss the EMP, they still can't move.

What a joke of a development team, that they can't take a patch that was mostly balanced and then proceed to fine-tune it. No, instead they have to take a hammer to it and throw the whole thing out because actually designing the game to be balanced and actually reliant on player skill would make way too much sense.

[Crackleslap]

I just played an QE Invoker. I think I've played QE invoker maybe one other time this year. And I'm complete dumpster trash with Invoker and mostly relied on euls > meat ball > deafing blast > cold snap. Ended 17 kills, 4 deaths. Granted, the other team wasn't very good and I was very rusty on the hero. I'm kinda amzed at how easily this hero gets kills. IF you don't have bkb you is dead.

[Longview]

Yea i got carried hard by some slav exort invoker the other night.. Euls still borderline op i think even with the mana cost

[Lysah]

The real issue with him (having played him a fair bit this patch now, 10ish games total since the lvl 1 Invoke change) is how good he is with a coordinated team. You're completely correct that he struggles to carry useless teams solo in pubs because sooner or later people learn to just blow everything on you and kill you, and the hero generally doesn't get items like Mek that would otherwise encourage your team to group up and end early (something QE is otherwise REALLY FUCKING GOOD AT), but with a coordinated team that gives you even half-decent working conditions the hero is fucking absurd right now. He's particularly fucking broken in those rare games where you get to KS with Sunstrike once every couple of minutes while hitting creeps in complete safety.

Yeah. They probably need to unlink urn and cold snap though, I always thought that change was really over the top and it's dumb that ghost walk emp cold snap orchid builds even exist. The fact that a QW build can orchid/snap/urn/emp someone and just walk away while they get permastunned inside the emp and take like 900 damage from the whole thing is pretty stupid.

AM does seem too strong for some reason. Maybe longer cast time or cooldown on his blink?

They probably need to increase his BAT back to normal levels, it's just too easy for him to get insane attack speed and he clears jungle so fast with just a naked bfury. I honestly never go vlads on this hero because there's no reason to, and it's expensive enough to be half of your manta. I might have to return to fountain once between having naked bfury and having manta, and after manta is done you kill packs so quickly they don't do damage to you. It's tough because he's already an average hyper carry at best, he only wins by outfarming the enemy and if they keep up he almost always loses late game (EE sama would agree to this I'm sure ), so nerfing his ability to carry would send him back to shit tier real fast. But, the addition of extra creeps to kill is a huge indirect buff to him so it's tough to just let it slide without nerfing him in some way. A blink nerf might work but I think it wouldn't really do anything about his farming or team fighting in the end.

[StrawberryZebra]

It's really amazing how little skill Invoker takes to play now. Got sent mid as Lesh after buying support items against an Invoker starting with null talisman who then proceeds to miss every last hit and get denied constantly. Continues to fuck up by screwing up EMP timing, but it doesn't matter because Cold Snap lasts 10 years and has 1000 range and no cast time, so who cares if you miss the EMP, they still can't move.

This is very contradictory. Berating him for a lack of skill because he messed up skill shot and spell timings, which is right, thats entirely on him. Then saying he takes no skill to play despite having highly missable skillshots and wonky to aim spells and awkward last hitting. Which is it, does he take skill to play well or does he not?

Cold Snap on the other hand is extremely annoying, but its Invokers only source of reliable damage outside of his auto attacks. Everything else is missable or requires some degree of micromanagement. Both of which are easy to mess up if you're trying to combo properly. If he's played by some clueless idiot then its pretty much all they are going to be able to do.

What a joke of a development team, that they can't take a patch that was mostly balanced and then proceed to fine-tune it. No, instead they have to take a hammer to it and throw the whole thing out because actually designing the game to be balanced and actually reliant on player skill would make way too much sense.

You expected anything else? This has been the way Dota has always been balanced. Not with careful use of a scalpel, but with wild sword strokes.

[Deleted]

I'm tempted to say that the solution to heroes like QoP and AM being perennial pro material is to not make Manta dispel silences. Force them to pick up a Diffusal or a Eul's if they want to be safe from Orchid ganks and you make it far easier to deal with them. I've honestly always thought Manta was an obnoxiously strong item on heroes that already went for lots of stats.

[Drunkenvalley]

Maybe rescale some of AM's abilities to be a slightly stronger early-game hero. For example rescale his ult damage, feedback damage and/or spellshield resistance to be better early while same at the end, but with a nerf to blink.

Could also tie BAT reduction from normal to his current self via abilities.