Computer Forum Chat Thread

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Since the lack of colorspace management is a deficiency of Windows and not the Surface Studio hardware, you'd think that (if Microsoft build support for it) it would be available through a software update and not necessitate purchasing version 2.

Is the 980m capable of outputting 10bit colour? I thought that was reserved for the quadros up until this generation.

[Artorius]

Is the 980m capable of outputting 10bit colour? I thought that was reserved for the quadros up until this generation.

The current Surface Studio has color modes, you can make it switch between DCI-P3, Adobe-RGB and sRGB. So I guess even if it can't MS somehow made it able to, or convinced Nvidia do undo the software lock. Or maybe perhaps they're doing it in some hacky way just having 256 levels but making the levels further from one another.

What Windows can't do however is display content at different colorspaces at the same time. That's the big problem.

[Alindra]

Is the 980m capable of outputting 10bit colour? I thought that was reserved for the quadros up until this generation.

Maybe I'm mistaken or misunderstanding, but 10 bit color would just increase the granularity of supported colors, not necessarily define more colors in and of themselves?

eg: 1 / 2^colorBits = fraction of a color that can be captured, 0.0 = off, 1.0 = saturated, but 1.0 on sRGB would be different than on a different gamut.

[Artorius]

8bit Adobe RGB or DCI-P3 would make most of your content look worse than sRGB because the majority of the colors would be further away from one another than they "should". It's like going from 0:1:255 to something like 1:1.17:300. <- 300 is an arbitrary number.

I don't think there are any Adobe RGB/DCI-P3 display in the market that aren't 10bit displays simply because wider colorspaces don't really make much sense if you don't increase color depth as well.

[Alindra]

8bit Adobe RGB or DCI-P3 would make most of your content look worse than sRGB because the majority of the colors would be further away from one another than they "should". It's like going from 0:1:255 to something like 1:1.17:300. <- 300 is an arbitrary number.

Oh, absolutely. (Hooray for banding.) I was just making sure that different color bits and color spaces weren't intrinsically linked...

I don't think there are any Adobe RGB/DCI-P3 display in the market that aren't 10bit displays simply because wider colorspaces don't really make much sense if you don't increase color depth as well.

...but that doesn't mean they aren't practically linked! In that case, then @Butler Log brings up a good point about the 980m. That didn't even cross my mind.

[Remilia]

Basically why I brought up Quadro/FirePro, though AMD already released drivers that allow 10bit on consumer cards (years ago). I don't remember anything about it from the Nvidia side.

Oh, absolutely. (Hooray for banding.) I was just making sure that different color bits and color spaces weren't intrinsically linked...

...but that doesn't mean they aren't practically linked! In that case, then @Butler Log brings up a good point about the 980m. That didn't even cross my mind.

They are not linked but AdobeRGB / DCI-P3 (and other wide gamut) should be accompanied along with 10bit or higher and better yet along with an onboard hardware look up table of 14/16bit+. Graphics cards right now do not have a LUT over 10bit, which is why professional monitors opt for an onboard LUT. It does add some lag but it does allow better gradients and color accuracy.
Either way, 10bit even on sRGB will give benefits for certain things.

[Artorius]

Also @Alindra, MS released a new Surface Book when they released the Surface Studio. It looks almost exactly the same in body but has better internals.

[Remilia]

Now update the software Microsoft.

[Artorius]

Now update the software Microsoft.

I guess it's an inherent problem and that they won't be able to fix it unless they rewrite some extremely core part of their codebase, which the original authors aren't even working in there anymore. Like their problem with DPI scaling, it was easier to come up with an entire new subset of APIs and create WinRT ("Modern Apps") than to fix Win32.

[Remilia]

No excuses! FIX!

[Alindra]

Also @Alindra, MS released a new Surface Book when they released the Surface Studio. It looks almost exactly the same in body but has better internals.

Oh snap, you're right! I was actually looking at this on Wikipedia's Microsoft Surface page, and the last listing for the Surface Pro 4 & Book is on Oct 26, 2015. On the Surface Book page it mentions the "Performance Base" as released on Oct 26, 2016.

I guess it's an inherent problem and that they won't be able to fix it unless they rewrite some core extremely part of their codebase, which the original authors aren't even working in there anymore. Like their problem with DPI scaling, it was easier to come up with an entire new subset of APIs and create WinRT ("Modern Apps") than to fix Win32.

I would be exactly 0% surprised if there was some extremely gnarly legacy code at Window's core.

I saw a hilarious picture containing several chat logs from former MS employees talking about shit they had to deal with at Microsoft (including shit like copy & pasted code for menus in the Window's 10 control panel), but I cannot for the life of me find it through searches.

[Artorius]

Oh snap, you're right! I was actually looking at this on Wikipedia's Microsoft Surface page, and the last listing for the Surface Pro 4 & Book is on Oct 26, 2015. On the Surface Book page it mentions the "Performance Base" as released on Oct 26, 2016.

Original Surface Book from 2015 had a "with performance base" version too. The one from the 2016 version just comes with a better GPU and more battery, I even think they're compatible with the older model. The new one is supposed to have 16 hours of battery life, and it's slightly heavier than 2015's model =p

[Alindra]

Original Surface Book from 2015 had a "with performance base" version too. The one from the 2016 version just comes with a better GPU and more battery, I even think they're compatible with the older model. The new one is supposed to have 16 hours of battery life, and it's slightly heavier than 2015's model =p

Oh sure, I know what the Surface Book is, and the base is an important part of it (just like they keyboard / screen protector is important to Surfaces, despite being purchased separately). It was a real kick in the nuts considering it came out around 1-2 months after I got my Surface Pro 3.

It could be that I'm just getting mixed up with terminology. Wikipedia lists the release date like this:

Release date October 26, 2015
with Performance Base: November 10, 2016

So I was thinking the updated base was the "performance base" while the launch version was something else (just "base"?). At any rate, I knew what you meant.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Iirc the upcoming feature update will contain improvements to the colour management in Windows

[DeltrusDisc]

Nearly 3 years after I got it, it would seem my Schiit MODI is dying out on me.

[DeltrusDisc]

Never mind, my MODI is not dying on me. Apparently, it might be when my family are charging any of their phones... in the kitchen... a floor up in the house... and across the bloody house! O_o

[Alindra]

Wait... what? What kind of wiring craziness is going on in your house's walls, @DeltrusDisc?

[DeltrusDisc]

After further testing it is not the above mentioned possibility, today however, it was gone... For no apparent reason. I'm so confused.

[Remilia]

The Amp hamsters couldn't keep up... sorry...

[apepi]

The Amp hamsters couldn't keep up... sorry...

This is what happens when you pay your hampsters schiit minimum wage.