What is GW max level about?

[Borzo]

You are making bizarre classifications.

I agree. procne has very unusual definitions for the word "arcade". But at least they have explained what their own personal definition is.

[BlairPhoenix]

Well, RPG without character development is absurd to me. Ok, there is progression until you reach max level. It works like standard RPG then. There is story, quests and my character is increasing in power allowing him to progress within the story and to reach new areas. But at the max level (which seems to be most important) what sort of progression remains? Can I somehow make my character better / stronger? If there is no gear to improve, nomore levels to gain, no abilities to gain? Unless unlocking those elites takes more time? But after that?

I can explore some areas, kill some mobs in a dungeon or fight some players in PvP. So i can fight with a pretedermined character (since all stats and abilities are the same), to make said character prettier or for the fun of victory.

At max level, what sort of progression is there to do in a standard RPG? GW2 fulfills the aspect of RPG by having the story/character progression. It also fulfills being an MMO by having a persistant world with multiplayer aspects ala dynamic events, PVP, and dungeons. It just doesn't have a traditional endgame, but since when did endgame become part of the definition of either RPG or MMO?

The difference with GW2 is once you are done with the PVE game's 'final boss', you can still participate in the multiplayer aspect of the game for the fun of being with friends etc. GW2 isn't meant to be a game like WoW where you are playing it all the time though, it's meant to be like sports, or chess, something you play occasionally, have fun doing, but would get bored of if you do it all the time.

[Lolsteak]

You're right. And we handle that part. But when somebody comes in with one "incredibly misinformed, fallacious claim" you guys frequently jump all over them without giving them a chance to correct themselves. When someone comes in with a legitimate opinion (see the two examples I gave) on why they aren't interested in the game, you guys jump all over them. It needs to stop. These forums are a place for discussion and for people to express their opinions. As long as they're being productive members, they are free to post their opinions and contribute.

I think you're misunderstanding things, no one's questioning his reason to be uninterested with the game, if he doesn't want to play it FINE..it's because he is CONTINUALLY claiming that GW2 isn't an RPG etc, again nobody's complaining about his interest in the game...he isn't exactly helping himself by continuing to say these things though, and i for one don't see any sign of him "correcting himself" when he's basically just stating these things over and over.

[Valeron]

There seems to be a significant portion of mmo players that just can't get out of the skinners box mindset.

I know I'm repeating myself but I really think the developers made a mistake by putting in levels. At the very least we wouldn't have these types of threads.

[Rowen]

You're right. And we handle that part. But when somebody comes in with one "incredibly misinformed, fallacious claim" you guys frequently jump all over them without giving them a chance to correct themselves. When someone comes in with a legitimate opinion (see the two examples I gave) on why they aren't interested in the game, you guys jump all over them. It needs to stop. These forums are a place for discussion and for people to express their opinions. As long as they're being productive members, they are free to post their opinions and contribute.

To be sincere, I've sometimes wanted to write something lengthy about WvW or something, and stopped mid first sentence because I've felt that if I didn't write a sycophantic praise of GW2 everyone would angrily jump on me without reading half the post.

About the topic at hand, I understand Procne's position, but also if believe that a slight change of view angle would make him understand ours. GW2 will have rare equipment, armor, skins and archievements that will take time, effort and skill to earn; you (we) will be as proud of them as I was of the of the latest Heroic armor set in wow in the days where I still raided, because they were a reminder of the effort we spent as a guild downing those bosses; for me, they were a mark of pride and that won't change with GW2.

As for actual stat progression if that's something Procne needs in his game then it's just natural that he won't like GW2. That's OK and there's nothing else to say. However, you'll find that after running the gear treadmill for some time a lot of people (including me) feel that that progression is artificial: the only tier that counts is the last one. We don't feel a real sense of progression because the statu quo is maintained in a way that makes all the past content obsolete. I would rather have a system with a static power cap, instead of the essentially equal, but even more artificial gear treadmill.

[Deleted]

Edge, why this thread isn't closed yet?

We established:
- what OP likes
- what games he prefers
- what features he needs
and above all:
- the fact he doesn't know the genre at all
- what GW2 offers
- what he will never get in GW2

Case closed. This topic is now a pointless discussion which provokes trolling.

[procne]

But how are other games different? Again, take WoW (as the best known example). The "real" progression is where you level up, get you abilities, decide on your role and playstyle, build your talents. Once you hit the max level, your progression stops. The gear grind aka. heroics/raiding is not a "true" RPG progression, it is not making your character "better", this is simply a prerequisite if you want to take that character to specific kind of content. You can't do real PvP until you have collected the PvP gear. This is not character progression, because is does not change anything substantial about your character, this is simply time sink/rite of passage thing.

I don't want to turn it into WoW vs GW2 war, but I'll bite a bit.

When I started playing WoW in early TBC it was different. To start raiding you needed to get attunements. To get attunements you needed to get into heroics. For both heroics and raiding you needed some gear. To get into heroics you needed reputation. To get into some dungeons / areas you needed flying mount, which required gold (1k gold was a lot back then). Getting into higher tier of raiding required finidhing previous tier. So after reaching level 70 there was a set goals to complete, each improving my character and giving it some new possibilities. So in fact it made my character better. Ability to fly, ability to enter heroics, ability to enter raids, gear, reputation items - they all made character better

Would it be fun without all this farming and grinding? It would be, although I'm not sure if it would be the same. You tend to appreciate something that required some effort. Our first raids in Karazhan were amazing, even though we failed terribly. Certainly it wouldn't be as fun, without the feeling of accomplishment. And the feeling of accomplishment comes when you realize how much effort it required.

Now it's different. You can get geared quickly, reputations are not really needed, attunements are gone. The moment you reach max level you are basically ready for all content. Not heroic raids, but LFD. I never trully bothered with PvP so I'll take your word for it. So basically what WoW has to offer to me right now is leveling characters and playing new raid when it comes out, 1 month max. Since no guild would want me to play only after new patch hits I would habe to use LFD. And I won't do that because playing with random people is not good for my nerves. So i don't play.

Apart from leveling process WoW becomes pretty much arcade game to me.

So WoW is indeed not that different from GW2. Leveling up and gearing towards raids is short process, especially if you have friends. After that whole content is open. WoW still has the gearing factor and doing heroic modes requires this gear. But apart from that anything goes.

Yes, its a common design element in modern MMOs - instead of giving you access to the interesting stuff immediately, they first make you suffer and do boring stuff for it for a few weeks or even month. Which is a bit sadistic. What wonders me more though, is that there are apparently so many masochistic players who actually enjoy that kind of attitude!

Given the above example, the more effort needed to reach the goal, the more fun from reaching it. Of course assuming there is some balance maintained.
Stuff that you get immediatelly is less valued and becomes boring more quickly. Remember that MMO devs want you to play as long as possible. You pay for each month. If they give everything immediatelly then people will burn content fast and get bored. With GW2 it's not an issue, if it's not subscription based. But tell me, how long are you really planning to play GW2 before you get bored?

I really do understand that people don't want to grind and gear up for something, and want to experience content instead. Even with bigger satisfaction after reaching the goal, it's just not worth for them to grind. I can appreciate this as well, now that I have less time and with my own money I can just buy another game to have fun in brand new content instead of grinding.

But I just like progressing, building and improving (not my own skills, but those pixels on monitor - playing game XXX is not something I want to excel at ) so much that game is empty for me if I don't feel I'm going forward. In case of GW2 all that would exist for me would be leveling and exploring . And that I get from any single player RPG.
MMOs are not really the best games for me, but the catch is - only MMOs have so big world, complexity, interesting mechanics and freedom.

[NineSpine]

I don't want to turn it into WoW vs GW2 war, but I'll bite a bit.

When I started playing WoW in early TBC it was different. To start raiding you needed to get attunements. To get attunements you needed to get into heroics. For both heroics and raiding you needed some gear. To get into heroics you needed reputation. To get into some dungeons / areas you needed flying mount, which required gold (1k gold was a lot back then). Getting into higher tier of raiding required finidhing previous tier. So after reaching level 70 there was a set goals to complete, each improving my character and giving it some new possibilities. So in fact it made my character better. Ability to fly, ability to enter heroics, ability to enter raids, gear, reputation items - they all made character better

Would it be fun without all this farming and grinding? It would be, although I'm not sure if it would be the same. You tend to appreciate something that required some effort. Our first raids in Karazhan were amazing, even though we failed terribly. Certainly it wouldn't be as fun, without the feeling of accomplishment. And the feeling of accomplishment comes when you realize how much effort it required.

Now it's different. You can get geared quickly, reputations are not really needed, attunements are gone. The moment you reach max level you are basically ready for all content. Not heroic raids, but LFD. I never trully bothered with PvP so I'll take your word for it. So basically what WoW has to offer to me right now is leveling characters and playing new raid when it comes out, 1 month max. Since no guild would want me to play only after new patch hits I would habe to use LFD. And I won't do that because playing with random people is not good for my nerves. So i don't play.

Apart from leveling process WoW becomes pretty much arcade game to me.

So WoW is indeed not that different from GW2. Leveling up and gearing towards raids is short process, especially if you have friends. After that whole content is open. WoW still has the gearing factor and doing heroic modes requires this gear. But apart from that anything goes.


Given the above example, the more effort needed to reach the goal, the more fun from reaching it. Of course assuming there is some balance maintained.
Stuff that you get immediatelly is less valued and becomes boring more quickly. Remember that MMO devs want you to play as long as possible. You pay for each month. If they give everything immediatelly then people will burn content fast and get bored. With GW2 it's not an issue, if it's not subscription based. But tell me, how long are you really planning to play GW2 before you get bored?

I really do understand that people don't want to grind and gear up for something, and want to experience content instead. Even with bigger satisfaction after reaching the goal, it's just not worth for them to grind. I can appreciate this as well, now that I have less time and with my own money I can just buy another game to have fun in brand new content instead of grinding.

But I just like progressing, building and improving (not my own skills, but those pixels on monitor - playing game XXX is not something I want to excel at ) so much that game is empty for me if I don't feel I'm going forward. In case of GW2 all that would exist for me would be leveling and exploring . And that I get from any single player RPG.
MMOs are not really the best games for me, but the catch is - only MMOs have so big world, complexity, interesting mechanics and freedom.

Your argument doesn't really make any sense. You seem to be assuming that because there isn't a gear grind, there won't be challenging content. That's the opposite of how that works though.

[Valeron]

I'd say there is more challenging content since you can never out gear it like you can in WoW.

[DrakeWurrum]

Given the above example, the more effort needed to reach the goal, the more fun from reaching it. Of course assuming there is some balance maintained.

You... ENJOY grinds?

How in the hell do you find a grind at all fun?

When I'm raiding in WoW, I don't enjoy the obtaining gear part. What I enjoy is killing the bosses. Even Paragon is like that: they run a really tight schedule for progression raiding, then once they've killed EVERY boss at least once, they slow down. The gear grind they do is just so that they can be fully-geared out already for the next tier of progression and be first again. The point being that they raid to kill the bosses. Once they've killed the bosses, they only do what's necessary.

[fartman69]

You do that thing that a lot of people forgot what games are about and have fun. You can still grind for gear, but it'll mostly be about cosmetic gear and making your character look good.

What if roleplaying is not fun to me? and getting better stats is? then gw2 is just not the game for me is going to be the obvious answer but alot more people like to play addition and subtration then dress up.

[Valeron]

What if roleplaying is not fun to me? and getting better stats is? then gw2 is just not the game for me is going to be the obvious answer but alot more people like to play addition and subtration then dress up.

And you know this how?

People like to be rewarded for their time and effort that's true. But not all rewards have to be tangible.

[NineSpine]

What if roleplaying is not fun to me? and getting better stats is? then gw2 is just not the game for me is going to be the obvious answer but alot more people like to play addition and subtration then dress up.

What does roleplaying have to do with it? Some people play games just because the actual act of playing it is fun. If a game needs to trick you into repeating content with gear, then that's a failure of the content to be fun in itself.

[Snow White]

What if roleplaying is not fun to me? and getting better stats is? then gw2 is just not the game for me is going to be the obvious answer but alot more people like to play addition and subtration then dress up.

If you don't feel like gw2 is the game for you then don't buy it? There are plenty of things in gw2 to do which have been listed multiple times on the first 3 pages of this thread. If none of them appeal to you, don't play. No skin off my back.

[Cyclone Jack]

You... ENJOY grinds?

How in the hell do you find a grind at all fun?

Some people find enjoyment in the grind, because they can 'zone out', so to speak. They get into the game and they just do their thing. To them, it's not really a grind, just a different way to play. I, personally, prefer doing quests over mob grinding, but some people prefer mob grinding over quests. Some people prefer running the same instance over and over until it's on farm status, yet dislike the leveling process.

What's interesting is that for those players that prefer mob grinding over questing, GW2 may still be an option. As long as they stay away from the Personal Story part of the game, they can run around the world working on various Dynamic Events and just mob grind. Even better, if they prefer a certain area, they can sit and grind them over and over, and still gain XP as they will never truly out level the area (due to the scaling).

however, those that prefer raiding over actual leveling, then GW2 just won't appeal to them no matter how hard people try to convert them.

[Valeron]

For grinding (which I assume is just mindless killing in most respects) can be a zen moment for some I suppose. The Diablo games and clones are like that for me. Sometimes you just want to kill stuff without thinking.

[Borzo]

WOW is training and developing a whole population of future accountants and statisticians.

[DrakeWurrum]

And what makes you think you can't zone out and kill stuff without thinking in GW2?

Frankly, if I wanted to zone out and not think, I'd watch TV. :S

[Newbryn]

k first no one enjoys grinding the fact that people are saying they enjoy grinding clearly have no idea what it is.The term is used for when you're doing a repetitive task and are no longer having fun, hence the word grind, however if you are having fun doing said repetitive task its not a grind.

[NineSpine]

Some people find enjoyment in the grind, because they can 'zone out', so to speak. They get into the game and they just do their thing. To them, it's not really a grind, just a different way to play. I, personally, prefer doing quests over mob grinding, but some people prefer mob grinding over quests. Some people prefer running the same instance over and over until it's on farm status, yet dislike the leveling process.

What's interesting is that for those players that prefer mob grinding over questing, GW2 may still be an option. As long as they stay away from the Personal Story part of the game, they can run around the world working on various Dynamic Events and just mob grind. Even better, if they prefer a certain area, they can sit and grind them over and over, and still gain XP as they will never truly out level the area (due to the scaling).

however, those that prefer raiding over actual leveling, then GW2 just won't appeal to them no matter how hard people try to convert them.

I don't think that point is very convincing. The skinner box effect of MMOs is well documented. You get a rush of happy brain chemicals every time you complete a "task", not because the task is fun, but because you are conditioned. That's why WoW throws you a treat every six seconds in the beginning.... and then less.... and less.... and less. On top of that, even the way gear drops is the same psychological manipulation that feeds gambling addicts. "This next one might be the one that drops it..." None of this makes games inherently more fun. It makes them more ADDICTIVE. What is an addicts first excuse? "I like doing it!"