Blizzard will let 25 mans die?

[Deleted]

"but we don't have aaaall the buffs" argument always makes me smile.

That is one of the arguments, glad I made you smile.

I just wish 25m raid also had 2.5 time the space to run around in...
And less drama
and less random disconections
and less lag issues
and less and less and less...

Nobody denies this argument, but if I had "Bob" in my hardcore 25m raiding guild having lag every evening either "Bob" or "me" would not be in said 25m hardcore raiding guild for very long. Wanna know why? In a hardcore context I cannot be arsed with shit like that, simple as that, and I cannot fathom why any hardcore player would find such acceptable. I cannot believe there is any hardcore player in the world who'd accept such terrible performance. You make sure your connection is stable, simple as that. Else, replace and you solve it. Happen again, gkick. You should put every effort into your performance and "Bob" having lag is part of performance. If "Bob" performs I like "Bob". If "Bob" does not perform, I hate him, and he can fuck off. Terrible excuse!!

Hardware requirement is higher, or settings must be set lower.

The space makes some fights harder (ascendant council, al akir), but other fights easier (infest, healing mace from Madness, etc). It'd require more careful planning but if its scripted it is easy if people are mature and determined (easy in hardcore raiding guild, harder in a mediocre guild with a few jokers). And other aspects like for example infest are completely faceroll in 25m whereas in 10m they're not.

Drama, a group of 10 people are simply closer and more well connected. In 25m and 40m you get more groups of people. I don't deny that aspect. In 25m you also need more micro management and lieutenants who all need to be responsible people. That is also why a 10m guild won't have a class leader; he'd be leading only himself, lol. Lack of drama and feeling I matter more is why I chose for 10m. If you have however 2 people quit 10m guild you have a big problem; in 25m far less.

And planning alt runs is much easier in 25m raiding guild.

Plus, well I already said it all in my previous post. Keep smiling.

This is entirely a community problem.

25 mans were run more when they were outright better, but now they're relatively equal in terms of reward.


The result? The Playerbase has gravitated towards what they wanted or could only do, and we are left with this result.

This is the same boat as World PvP and RP-it's player-driven and player-managed. Blizzard gave us the option and we followed suit-got no one to blame but us.

Very good point.

Blizzard has much better tools at disposal for analysis now to make sure 10m and 25m are competitive. Regarding world PvP they add incentive to do this in MoP (I certainly played my part in FL quest area) with daily quest hubs, rewards for world PvP as CP and also having gear matter less as well as more variety in specs.

It really isn't that simple. People don't just make their decisions based on raid size, that's incredibly simplistic and naive. They look at a variety of things. After working very hard and spending most of Cata trying to keep 25 man hc guild with a long history alive only to see it die, I find it funny when people with no clue tell me to "just get a group of people that want to do 25 mans". It shows complete ignorance of reality. And I wasn't the only one, my server had over ten solid 25-man guilds all the way from TBC to Cata, now there are none left even though officers in all of them worked very hard to keep them alive.

TBC doesn't count. You need 25m to raid in TBC. That'd be almost same as saying "well this 40m raiding community scene is gone since TBC" yeah duh there was no 40m raid in TBC. Now people have choice since WotLK (but not completely due to loot) and some 25m raiders went 10m, leading to more 10m (2,5 times more per 25m raiding guild dissolved if all stayed playing). It starts to count from WotLK because from that point you had the choice to do end content in 10m but the real compare starts since patch 4.0.1 shared lockout. Don't mention TBC as start of 25m raiding and then complaining once people had choice that some 25m -> 10m in Cata because the lockout shared and loot drop same. It just makes no sense whatsoever.

PS: The comment from Blizzard about if starting from scratch would prefer 15m raiding is interesting.

[Deleted]

Only 12 out of the top 15 raiding guild are 25man, 25man raiding is obviously dead.

[Jainzar]

The decision by blizzard to grant 10 player mode the same achievements and the same loot was the death sentence for 25 raids back when it was implemented. It just takes time to show its effects, but sooner or later 25m raids will die, it's just a matter of time.

[Deleted]

Only 12 out of the top 15 raiding guild are 25man, 25man raiding is obviously dead.

faulty argument we are not talking about the population of 25s at the top but the general population of 25s. Even if you look at the top a classic guild like inner sanctum(world number 6 t12 and numerous other world top 25 spots) is going over to 10 man raiding with mists, according to their wowprogress profile. They even write this on their profile
Following the changes within the game regarding hardcore raiding or how 10 and 25 man differ, we felt this was the best path to take, in order to keep Inner Sanctum alive and running.

It really isn't that simple. People don't just make their decisions based on raid size, that's incredibly simplistic and naive. They look at a variety of things. After working very hard and spending most of Cata trying to keep 25 man hc guild with a long history alive only to see it die, I find it funny when people with no clue tell me to "just get a group of people that want to do 25 mans". It shows complete ignorance of reality. And I wasn't the only one, my server had over ten solid 25-man guilds all the way from TBC to Cata, now there are none left even though officers in all of them worked very hard to keep them alive.

this is closer to the reality.
Look at how the amount of 25 man guilds have dimished per tier this expansion on the 3 servers i've been on its the same pattern 50-75% of 25 man guilds died every tier down to there only being 1-2 left now.

And claiming that its only 25 you need for 25s is quite untrue since for a healthy guild you need 35-37 , because of moranic setups, some players not being there an evening etc.etc.

[MoanaLisa]

The problem is how do you keep "A" alive if the majority wishes to do "B" and you don't want to force people into doing "A". I don't think that Blizzard wants 25m raids to go away. But I don't think they have any interest in forcing everyone into them either.

So it's up to us.

EDIT: I'll add this thought: If 25m groups are already dead and there are few-to-none on most servers today, threats about leaving the game if they go away entirely are pretty insubstantial. I'd prefer to see them survive myself. While I can understand the argument about a single-size (15), I'm not of the opinion personally that 15 is any more epic than 10 all things taken into account.

[Christi]

The problem is how do you keep "A" alive if the majority wishes to do "B" and you don't want to force people into doing "A". I don't think that Blizzard wants 25m raids to go away. But I don't think they have any interest in forcing everyone into them either.

So it's up to us.

It's not totally "up to us", it's more like "up to the people willing and able to run such guilds". Let's say in the big pool of raiding players, 10% are guild leaders/officers and 90% are raiders/members. What happens if the majority of the 90% want to raid 25man, but the majority of the 10% can't be arsed into leading those raid groups/guilds? You get what we have today. A lot of players prefer 25man but too few want to lead/manage such a group cause there's no reward to it, so they just go "ah screw this, why bother? just gonna go 10man". Which is easier to manage.

[Glorn]

The problem is how do you keep "A" alive if the majority wishes to do "B" and you don't want to force people into doing "A". I don't think that Blizzard wants 25m raids to go away. But I don't think they have any interest in forcing everyone into them either.

So it's up to us.

EDIT: I'll add this thought: If 25m groups are already dead and there are few-to-none on most servers today, threats about leaving the game if they go away entirely are pretty insubstantial. I'd prefer to see them survive myself. While I can understand the argument about a single-size (15), I'm not of the opinion personally that 15 is any more epic than 10 all things taken into account.

Jsut make separate achievements and things will be much better,it's not like majority wants to do 10 mans because they are so cool.It have been said in this topic many times - easier lootz on 10 man,less ppl interested in 25 man.People don't see a point in raiding 25 mans since they can get exactly the same from 10 mans.Make separate achievements and there will at least be some point in doing 25 mans and the situation won't be getting worse and worse.

[MoanaLisa]

Jsut make separate achievements and things will be much better,it's not like majority wants to do 10 mans because they are so cool.It have been said in this topic many times - easier lootz on 10 man,less ppl interested in 25 man.People don't see a point in raiding 25 mans since they can get exactly the same from 10 mans.Make separate achievements and there will at least be some point in doing 25 mans and the situation won't be getting worse and worse.

Christi has it right: guild and raid management is more the problem than anything else.

On the other hand, there's no objective reason other than "It should be that way" for giving 10m raids inferior loot. People make the argument that they're 'easier' but that's subjective, highly arguable and open to discussion.

My own private opinion is pretty simple: if you're going one-size for raiding, make it 25 only. Then you can stair-step the difficulties for all three versions of the raid and possibly have some extra time to make more or better raids over the long run. I'm mildly surprised that I don't see this point of view as often as I would expect. 15m is just a half-assed compromise.

[Synche]

All you said was sweet, the italic part is true for most since they were given the choice. The bold one is wrong, you know that some people are stuck in the past right? Are you one of those? Are those guilds one of those? Saying that its harder because top guilds do so is wrong, just like saying that "most" skilled players plays mages.

Thanks for understanding my point, upon review I did lead into more of a opinion rather than fact. 25m raiding is harder for various reasons which have already been stated in this thread but not particularly for harder content.

10m raiding is not regarded as progression for many reasons, but mainly due to the fact 25m raiding was introduced as "final" raid tier back in TBC and has stuck since. On the other hand 25m raiding has taken a back seat in some regards to the shared lockout, however it is still the "community" that "killed" it off because they don't see an incentive, which I believe is incorrect.

I would love to be in a 25m raiding guild again, however the times that I can play often are not able to support one anymore due to primarily playing late night (9pm PST-1ish AM) so it is hard to find guilds that have a similar raid time.

[Lerrielin]

I wish Blizzard is just willing to make a compromise. It's impossible to make everyone happy anyway because no matter how hard one tries, there will ALWAYS be someone who's unhappy, or find something to be unhappy about. If we can just accept that someone will always be unhappy, can't we just work from there?

By definition, a compromise is a solution that neither party is happy with, but is willing to accept.

Give 10-man raiders the same ilvl loot, but make separate 10 and 25 achievements. Are people from both sides really unwilling to accept those conditions (for example)? If the answer is "yes", then we're really not going to get anywhere...

[Jinto]

walls of text

Should link your logs so I can see how terrible your comp really is lol. After doing 25m Hs and now doing 10m Hs on like 3 alts for shits and giggles, I have to doubt the veracity of anyone claiming 10m H Ultraxion is remotely as difficult as 25m.

[Palmz]

Killing 40 man raids? Check
Killing 25 man raids? Check
Killing 10 man Raids? Check

Its hurting everyone and the majority (10s). If you want to continue playing then you'll just have to suck it up, sorry.

[Keoren]

Give 10-man raiders the same ilvl loot, but make separate 10 and 25 achievements. Are people from both sides really unwilling to accept those conditions (for example)? If the answer is "yes", then we're really not going to get anywhere...

I believe this alone would help a great deal.

[YankeePhan1234]

It's on its way down pretty substantially, according to the recent raid observer the ratio of 25:10 man guilds went from 3:1 in WOTLK to 9:1 as of patch 4.3. The simple fact is that its easier to get 10 people coordinated and ready to raid than it is 25, so the majority of people who want to get in and raid casually are going to do the easier to organize option.

[rkma]

I like how they said they would do 15m if they started from scratch today. It's like, "hey, we know there's a better way to do this, but we'd rather watch things slowly fall apart instead."

[shise]

Because they don't want ppl to leave the game,and they want to please every part of the community

It will remind as it actually is, and if they don't make raids 5 men it's jsut because we already have 5 men dungeons and because that would definitely let down 25 men raiders.

They want to make it as easy as possible to catch as many players as they can.

[Deleted]

It's on its way down pretty substantially, according to the recent raid observer the ratio of 25:10 man guilds went from 3:1 in WOTLK to 9:1 as of patch 4.3. The simple fact is that its easier to get 10 people coordinated and ready to raid than it is 25, so the majority of people who want to get in and raid casually are going to do the easier to organize option.

And that's why 80 % of all the news ( cata ) 10mans guilds have already / will disband before MoP.

[Deleted]

I dont understand why people care so much.
If you are in a 25man guild, good for you? Why you care who raids what size?
If you are in a 10man guild, good for you?
You want to do 25man, join one or make one?

Like its Blizzards fault so many people PREFER doing things on 10man with FRIENDS? Nope its not, you still get more loot in 25man (less rng on drops), faster legendarys yadda yadda.

Oh but one is harder than another? No shit sherlocks! You honestly think they can or anyone can balance that to perfection? If you ask me, they've done pretty good job.

"I demand that they make harder heroics" *but I come here to whine, how one boss is soo hard on my prefered raiding size*

GOSH!

[ComputerNerd]

Not sure what cba means but they are definitely dying because of Blizzard. The numbers that I have provided earlier indicate it is directly due to the changes they made.

cba - Can't be A***d - basically can't be bothered.
They are most certainly not dying because of blizzard.
They were more than popular enough with seperate lockouts, so if it was a problem caused by blizzard they would have been dying then, not since the lockout merge.
No, it is players and players only.
The most productive or easiest route rather than the preferred format.
Convenience or efficiency rather than playstyle.

[rkma]

They were more than popular enough with seperate lockouts, so if it was a problem caused by blizzard they would have been dying then, not since the lockout merge.
No, it is players and players only.

Very few 25m guilds formed since Cataclysm came out. With DS being the last raid in Cataclysm, apathy has set in, and now you're seeing a lot of the remaining 25m guilds die off. It just took a little time and pressure, but it was predictable since the beginning.

---------- Post added 2012-03-20 at 04:09 PM ----------

Like its Blizzards fault so many people PREFER doing things on 10man with FRIENDS?

What people ultimately choose to do depends on a lot of factors, and "what's most fun" is not the only factor that gets considered. Blizzard is being a bit disingenuous by assuming that 10m and 25m are equal and the only difference between the two is "preference." They're not equal; the latter takes a lot more work to set up, which is entirely independent of whether it makes for a better experience.

Blizzard's focus should be on providing the best experience to their players, and if this means killing both 10m and 25m to create a 15m raid size, then they should do that and stop pretending to be servicing people's preferences. No one is served by having to pick between two dysfunctional choices.