Blizzard will let 25 mans die?

[Deleted]

I'm a guildleader. I know this. The average still want to play, however. Got a godo reason why they shoudn't be able to?

And that is the reason that i supported 25, in 10 man with difficulty increased to match the difficulty of a 25 those people have less chances to raid, and better players that used to be there to help new people improve are too busy in their "hardcore" 10 man teams. Fail philosophy for this model. It was brought up to increase accessiblity, but it decreased it.

No, The goal was loot, raiding was the mechanism. The proof for this is that now the loot is in 10's, they do 10's.

No the goal was doing things with other people. Now you re doing the same things alone, in a trashed down version of a raid if you 're not "skilled" enough, and you learn that "need" on anything you can press need for, is the way to carry on.

Where did they go? Do you think that those "underperformers" evaporate once you've got rid of them? Or do they form their own guilds and struggle?

The numbers tell, that the grand majority of them are doing LFR. Feel free to check, although you have a bad relationship with maths i must say.

Cataclysm was far, far, far too difficult. They fixed it eventually. They won't make that mistake again, thank goodness.

No Cataclysm was far, far failed as concept, even on that aspect. They encouraged unorganized group play with increased difficulty. How would that be possible to be succesfull?

Dunno mate, I went strict ten man with my guild back in wrath.

LFR is the best thing that has happened to the game. Blizzards realising that sky high difficulty sucks dick a close second. Probably third is their realising that the super hardcore are never going to be happy, so fuck 'em.

LFR was the downfall for raiding.
The last thing that was ungrindable at day one of a new patch, became grindable, actually it became "the best grind".
Grind is smt you do in order to prepare "for the interesting stuff". What happens when the "interesting stuff" are the same excactly things you do as part of your grind to get rdy for them?
Well...i'll leave you reach to a conclusion yourself.

[Deleted]

Danis, as I said on my edit, my post towards your thoughts was formulated having in mind that you re a 25 man raider (not 10) that finds everything in current model perfectly normal.
Since you re a 10 man raider, in a competive guild, I can understand how you can’t see the flows of the current system, that in the bottom line is tailored around your needs.

More specifically towards your thoughts about pugs, only a note that in order to get credit for a kill in third party progression sites, you need 5 people doing the same kill, first time (there is record for time and date ONLY for your first kill in your API). Thus to have a fully pugged run being credited to a guild, is extremely unlikely. A kill with the group being consisted only from guild members(that never killed the boss again) plus 1-3 randoms, is hardly considered a pug.

About ignoring and then bashing the math, I didn’t express myself well. Thus your confusion is reasonable.
I should have said “not only you didn’t ignore it, but you were bashing against it.”

I am a supported of “fail check” probability.
There are abilities that failing the check means wipe.
Take Zonozz, Ultraxion, Hagara, and in older Tiers Baleroc, Majordomo, Elementium monstrocity, Al Akir.
All those fights are harder in 25, because no matter how good you re, there is a % of fail, even for the best one, especially in progress.
Now, if the % is the same per person (same skill 10 man and same skill 25), but the number of people involved in the check are more, then the total % of the group to pass the fail check in 25 is by a large margin smaller, which defaults in a wipe.

10 people raids had harder encounters, on those fights with certain setup limitations to deal with the mechanics.
The Rogue in valiona and theralion, the 2 tank limitation + the need for discipline priest in halfus etc.

All in all, there are 2 different things, with different problems and different limitations resulting by default, that all encounters will not be balanced, and that certain encounters will be easier for the one format combared to the other.
Yet they re treated as the same!
That is the major flaw of this system.
There should at least be different achievements and different realm firsts, because it is the fair thing to do.

The hole concept of cataclysm cannot work. You cannot equalize two different things. Even if you actively try to do it by tuning the encounters properly(which also is close to impossible), the different problems each size has to deal with will always alter the difficulty of the encounter in favor of the smaller or the bigger size.
What was the point then?
Since it is not doable why it was brought up?

Well, the answer I concluded to, is fairly safe to say it is the correct one.
They would delete 25s, if guilds like paragon, method ensidia, were willing to raid smaller size and not stop raiding.

They would have done it, thinking that with smaller sizes you increase accessibility. And their constant nightmare is this bloody accessibility.
Well, they were wrong!
By promoting the smaller size, they promoted the trend for the good and depentable players, to EXCLUDE bad players and casual players.

Thus the access was reduced, because even for a 10 man to exist, you need someone to lead it!
How many guilds you know that the worse raider of their team was their raid leader?

That is right, the leaders and the officers downsized with themselves included, and those leaders that were completely reluctant to go with the flaw and raid 10 but saw that is impossible to maintain their 25 STOPPED raiding!

Result?
In 3 consecutive tiers, the total kills of 10+25 people teams was SMALLER than the total kill in Tier 10 (ICC) 10+25!
That means fewer people are raiding today vs Wrath, and if you take the blend of teams not (90% 10 man and only 10% 25) vs Wrath (70% 10+25 vs 30% strict 10 man), and by a % much larger than the decline in subs!

That is the ultimate failure of Blizzard in this expansion!

They brought smt to increase access to raids, and instead the access was reduced, lol!

That is why, dear Danis and others, we have today the monstrocity called LFR.
An automated tool that will increase the access to all future raiding tiers.
But at the same moment, a tool that will demand encounters to be designed around its needs. And also everybody can step in and roflstomp the entire raid
That tool will trash down every raid from now on, and nobody will remember any of those new raids, the way they remember today Nax 40, Sunwell, Ulduar!
The time of the legendary raids went and there is no turning back.

What blizzard managed with this expansion, is to bring a system that defeated the purpose it was invented for, and by doing so Blizzard was forced to bring a tool that will trash down and trivialize most of the things related to raiding in the future!

Enjoy 10 mans people! You managed to exclude “bads”, but the “bads” will enter your “raid” in every tier from now on, with all their alts, with the push of a button, kill all the bosses you kill, take the loot you need on mains at start and alts later, and laugh at you that you re wiping 1000 times to do the same boss in “heroic”!

I've haven't been checking MMO for some days now, so sorry for the late reply Archidamos.

You make some really good points but also points that aren't just about bashing one raid size (which I think most people tend to do). I totally agree, that this whole debate has been brought on by Blizz and as such, Blizz has to take some responsibility. But you are still arguing that the 2 raid sizes aren't "equal" and I guess you are somewhat right. With the examples you're using, I have to agree. Since without talking about difference in difficulty in general, the bosses you mention were indeed harder on one raid size. But as I've also said several times before, some bosses have been harder on 25 mode and some have been harder on 10 mode.

Then there's the organisation and I guess people will never quite agree on this. But as I already said, some things are easier on 10 and some are easier on 25. 10's is easier to organise in general but 25's don't ever have issues with class set-up or missing buffs. As in, 10 man guilds without a Rogue for T13 had to get one, don't think any 25 man guilds had that issue.

I'm not sure why you bring up LFR in your post though? I mean, I don't think LFR has any bearing on this whole debate. Ofc I can see, how they would need to balance around the 25 people in LFR but lets be honest now, when it's as easy as it is, you don't really have to worry about much. Imo LFR could and should be deleted from the game, but that's another debate.

And btw, about them bads you talk about. Yes my own guild easily gets rid of anyone who's "bad" by our standards but that doesn't mean that "bads" will ever find their way into my guild as you say. They'll find their way into LFR yes but not many heroic raiders care about LFR after the first few weeks. What people get from LFR is utter shit compared to heroic kills and titles like Destroyers End have no value whatsoever. So it's okay that they have that same achievement, since heroic raiders were running around with Saviour of Azeroth long before many casual people even got their Destroyer's End title.

[Talen]

First, the average and the underperformers in a team, usually are not officers or leaders in the team, and they don't wish to become one either.

Often, yes. Although , average and "underperformers" are relative. And many guilds got rid of such players anyway.

Second. Back in the past, since 25 was "the end game" as it should have been

And now its not. Now the "end game" is heroic mode. And as then, the end game is "raiding". 25 man simply provided a difficulty level. Which was a bit awkward if you wanted to take on the best, hardest challenge but wanted to do so with your 10 man raid group.

, because smt so complicated shouldnt exist for "cosmetic" reasons only like it does now, the majority of people wanted to take part in it.

The majority of raiders NEEDED to take part in it because it was the end game. Theres a difference between that and suggesting they did so because of the format.

And then there were others, in all ranges of the skill spectrum, with one common goal: To raid 25.

Or to put it another way - to raid at the highest level they could. 25s were the pinnacle of raiding. They offered the better gear, offered the better level of prestige, offered achievements neceesary for membership in many raid groups (inc 10s) and were in sucbh a position that 10s were seen as a joke by many. Did they raid 25s because they were 25s? No. They raided 25s because thats wehere the action was.

And now the action, as it were, is in heroic. And people can choose the format.

Third. What happened now? Someone from blizzard said to people "i don't care how things are, this is how things will be from now on." Why? Unkown since the system was working fine. Result? Failed.

What do you mean..."Unknown". We know why the system was changed. It WASN'T working fine. It caused issues for players, for guilds and or Blizzard who had to design and balance around the limitations imposed by the previous raid model. It also ran counter to their own gaming philosophy. They've just been discussing these issues for the past 4 or 5 years.

Fourth. What was the deal after this failed model got implemented?
The good players saw it as a chance to get rid of the "bads" by downsizing.

You complain because players now have a chance to choose who they raid with, without the need to raid with people they don't really care about, and without the need to feel punished by being locked out of the 25 man end game. It's regrettable that guilds break up over such reasons, but guilds break up all the time - and being honest, one of the big reasons they have always done so is because certain players left because the rest "weren't good enough". Complaining because things are as they have always been?

The new game cycle of the grand majority of ex raiders will be consisted of, LFR, pet battles, and farmville.

Which will actually be enough for most players. Those who are interested in raiding will, in turn, continue to raid...primarily in 10s.

And that is the reason that i supported 25, in 10 man with difficulty increased to match the difficulty of a 25 those people have less chances to raid, and better players that used to be there to help new people improve are too busy in their "hardcore" 10 man teams. Fail philosophy for this model. It was brought up to increase accessiblity, but it decreased it.

You support 25s because they cater to the "baddies"? Because you want 10 or so players per raid group to feel like they need to carry 15 who can't make it on their own? Truth be told, if i thought I was carrying the rest of the raid, I'd wnat to raid as 10 man myself.

No the goal was doing things with other people.

No. The goal was, and is, and likely always will be...the loot. Thats what the players want. They wnat to do so without other people, with other players because that social atmosphere is a big draw for this type of game. But he goal of the game is the loot. Raiding is how you get it.

The numbers tell, that the grand majority of them are doing LFR. Feel free to check, although you have a bad relationship with maths i must say.

Understandable. Most players in this game simply don't want to raid. LFR gives them a chance to experience raid content without too much investment. Given that, its not surprising most players will go LFR. 10s and 25s will simply become one of the end game options.

No Cataclysm was far, far failed as concept, even on that aspect. They encouraged unorganized group play with increased difficulty. How would that be possible to be succesfull?

The difficulty level turned a lot of people off the game. IMO, the problem wasn't even the difficulty. I found the levelling process grindy and boring, with little to recommend it. Questing was too linear to be fun, the zones too spread out and the enemies too diverse to be seen as part of a coherent storyline. Dungeons had their moments and parts were worth playing - but relied too much on trash, too much on grinding, and too much on simply giving extended health pools to drag out the encounters. They were, in other words, boring. At least for me.

LFR was the downfall for raiding.

LFR brings a lot more people to the raiding game and ensures that raids are worth implementing because Blizzard return is now far far greater. Once you get the art and mechanics in place, themn all that they need to do is tune the raid for each difficulty level. LFR will ensure raids have a place in the game even if fewer people actually end up running the normal or heroic versions.

What happens when the "interesting stuff" are the same excactly things you do as part of your grind to get rdy for them?

People used to grind 10s and normals to prepare for 25 heroics. Why is this bad now that they can go to LFR instead?

EJL

[Deleted]

They aren't equal in the same way. That doesn't mean they don't require the same (or roughly so) degree of effort.

Blizzard adjusts a LOT of factor to balance raids. Health, damage output, spacing and range requirements. You are asking me to point the sspecific mechancis Blizzard put into place to compensate for the increased difficulty of coordination. Its a stupid question. Balance involves taking into account numerous factors and adjusting a number of factors, some of which may be unique to various, in response till the raid is as difficult as you want it to be.

If you wnat the specifics of who much health Boss A had removed to accomodate the increase in difficulty, or how much his DPS was lowered then you would need to ask Blizzard. Not me.

Aren't equal in the same way thats just rethorical non-sense. They aren't equal and therefor one format is more difficult than the other so if you want to clear that format because it is more difficult you will have to use more energy, you will have to use more effort to clear it.

and again
I am asking you however to show me the factors, that make you say, that things have been balanced out.
And yes i am asking you because you in this thread are making an argument about meaning that you must know which factors balance it out. I am not talking to blizzard i am talking to you. And just moving the responsibility to answer from you to blizzard because you can't answer the question of what factors YOU say balance the thing out well how schould blizzard know if YOU don't even know what factors YOU are referring to.

and again and again and again
I will ask you again then because you didn't answer the question:
pls show me the things that blizzard has done to balance around difference in coordination, spacing, raidfailcheck, difference in required dps and hps output etc. Because i can't find them.(and don't say you got 3!!!! combatrezzes, thats just laughable)

[Talen]

Aren't equal in the same way thats just rethorical non-sense. They aren't equal and therefor one format is more difficult than the other so if you want to clear that format because it is more difficult you will have to use more energy, you will have to use more effort to clear it.

And now we're back to the "how close in difficulty are they?" argument.

And thats going to vary from person to person, from group to group. Blizzard never promised, as far as I am aware, that everything would be identical between the formats. Nor do they have to. All they need do is deliver what they promised....equality within a reasonable degree of tolerance. Equality close enough that people won't be drawn from one format to the other.

This is more critical with the heroic modes of course. But then, it also has less impact in some ways because of the way the lockouts work.

Perfect equality isn't going to happen. Some mechanics favor small sizes, others large. The important aspect is whether the raid requires the same degree, or the same within an acceptable degree, of effort per player regardless of format. Whether a group of similar skills and gear and in game knowledge would find 10s roughly as difficult as 25s.

Your argument "10s just end up winning because stuff is easier to kill there its the easier road to the kill and the loot." The road into 10s is easier...but Blizzard does not, cannot and should not account for that. Raiding logistics is not something Blizzard can account for. So whether or not 10s have an easier road is unimportant as far as Blizzards input for this is concerned. Blizzards concern, its area of responsibility, is the actual raid, and the mechanics. It is the players responsibility to provide the group.

And while Blizzard wants 10 man groups to be viable, while Blizzard wants players to choose the raid format they most like and run that, while Blizzard
wants players to raid how they like, with who they like, when they like - format is always going to be second fiddle to the aspecst of raiding which are important to the players.

Getting the gear which is the point of raiding. Seeing the content. Beating the bad guy. Raiding with friends and guildies at a convenient time. Not having to wait too long to begin raiding.

Format....for most....will be low down on the list of priorities. Very low down I suspect. They'll go with 10s and LFR because those modes give them everything they want. Quick, easy, reliable access to the raid, story and loot without too much drama. Difficulty of the raid only comes into play for those who want a challenge. And plenty of raiders do. Its why many raid in the first place. Its why peopel do heroics. It why people are lookign forward to challenge modes.

I am asking you however to show me the factors, that make you say, that things have been balanced out.

You seem overly fixated on this question.

And yes i am asking you because you in this thread are making an argument about meaning that you must know which factors balance it out. I am not talking to blizzard i am talking to you.

No...you need to ask Blizzard. All I said was it was stupid to make the argument about coordination being a factor in difficulty because you have no idea IF Blizzard adjusted for it. They CAN adjust for such factors...and they indeed DO adjust for such factors in LFR. What they haven't said is whether they do so in balancing 10s and 25s.....though it would seem ridiculous if they don't. The continued insistence that 25s are harder because of the difficulty in coordination is true, to a degree, but if you want to know if and how Blizzard adjust for these factors you and others continually state as examples of why the system is unfair, you would need to ask Blizzard.

Maybe they don't adjust for it....although the fact they do consider coordination for LFR and adjust for the increased chance of mistakes via mechanics such as increased CRs would imply otherwise.

And just moving the responsibility to answer from you to blizzard because you can't answer the question of what factors YOU say balance the thing out well how schould blizzard know if YOU don't even know what factors YOU are referring to.

I'm not the one claiming Blizzard hasn't taken coordination et al into account while balancing the formats. You and others are making that assumption.

EJL

[Deleted]

Aren't equal in the same way thats just rethorical non-sense. They aren't equal and therefor one format is more difficult than the other so if you want to clear that format because it is more difficult you will have to use more energy, you will have to use more effort to clear it.

Juggling while on a unicycle is tricky. Juggling while tightrope walking is also tricky. Raids can be equaly difficult without being the exact same experience.

and again
I am asking you however to show me the factors, that make you say, that things have been balanced out.
And yes i am asking you because you in this thread are making an argument about meaning that you must know which factors balance it out. I am not talking to blizzard i am talking to you. And just moving the responsibility to answer from you to blizzard because you can't answer the question of what factors YOU say balance the thing out well how schould blizzard know if YOU don't even know what factors YOU are referring to.

and again and again and again
I will ask you again then because you didn't answer the question:
pls show me the things that blizzard has done to balance around difference in coordination, spacing, raidfailcheck, difference in required dps and hps output etc. Because i can't find them.(and don't say you got 3!!!! combatrezzes, thats just laughable)

Righto bud. Go and do HC blackthorn with an all melee 10 man. Should be easy.

Or take an affi warlock to spine. While you are at it, get max DPS out of your raid with no MOTW/kings or without any armor debuff. Pick two or three buffs you like or debuffs if you prefer, then remove them from your raid and see how you do.

And you've already been told why DPS is higher (there are more dps in a 25 man) and HPS is higher in a 25 man (people stacking puts HPS numbers up.)

Please stop assuming theoretical min maxing for your ten man raid, it doesn't happen very often in the real world. Paragon and chums can do it, I've already told you why they don't matter at all.

Edit - you say that LFR is the downfall of raiding? How do you work that out? More people are raiding than ever before. Or do you just want raids to be for you and your special snowflake buddies?

[Deleted]

Injin you re wrong.
There have been many fights were the dps requirements on top level have been totally scewed in favor of 10 man.
And don't tell me that top 10 mans are rolling without BoM/MotW buff or any other for that matter.
A comp of 7 people can bring all the buffage required today and top guilds have them all on.

On the sidenote, and that doesnt refair to you, i have to keep remembering first to log and then to enter this thread.
Certain scewed and unworthy to reply to posts, are very annoying, especially when they quote things that i said in the most rediculous manner.
Yes i am refering to mr "i don't need to have a clue about anything, to have an opinion presented as a fact".

[Deleted]

Injin you re wrong.
There have been many fights were the dps requirements on top level have been totally scewed in favor of 10 man.
And don't tell me that top 10 mans are rolling without BoM/MotW buff or any other for that matter.
A comp of 7 people can bring all the buffage required today and top guilds have them all on.

And top guilds aren't relevent to this discussion in any way whatsoever, as I've already pointed out half a dozen times. The vast majority of raids don't have the sort of min/max flexibility you are taking as standard. You didn't answer any of my questions, I notice. (And you can't do so because you haven't got an answer that you like.)

[Deleted]

any guild can bring all the buffs they just have to build their raid properly.
And a tip for you you can even use leatherworking drums to get a 4% kings buff it might be helpfull to know for you

Balancing an encounter around people making stupid setups all melee or people playing non optimal speccs for certain encounters...
Only thing it proves is you can't raid with 5 melee dps in 10 man if you want it to be succesfull.
Because this could be funny i think neither would it be such a great idea to build a 25 man raid entirely consisting of melee dps...

dps has to be higher because of more dps yes the required raiddps is higher, but the average dps of every raider required in 25 is higher than in 10. Its like saying 10 guys you can finish this race if you drive 70 mph in each of your cars while you 25 people you have to drive 100mph in each of your cars to finish the race.
And yes i am dumbing it down just so that you might understand.

For an average raidguild it is the same top guilds and medicore guilds and casual guilds face the same encounters, their ability or skill to master them are different.

If anything maybe blizzard again schould just break it up and make it a wrath model again then they can balance 10 to be able to include every moronic setup that you can think off.

And @ talen.
I am asking you however to show me the factors, that make you say, that things have been balanced out.

and yes i am quite fixated on the question because you fail to answer it, dodge it or just plain move the responsibility of answering it. Its a bit like politicians and they do the same thing, only problem is political journalists just let them get away with it instead of asking the question again untill they get an answer so again for the fifth time.
I will ask you again then because you didn't answer the question:
pls show me the things that blizzard has done to balance around difference in coordination, spacing, raidfailcheck, difference in required dps and hps output etc. Because i can't find them.(and don't say you got 3!!!! combatrezzes, thats just laughable)

btw

All I said was it was stupid to make the argument about coordination being a factor in difficulty because you have no idea IF Blizzard adjusted for it. They CAN adjust for such factors...and they indeed DO adjust for such factors in LFR.

You as an expert on lfr yes coordination is not a problem in lfr but its tuned so low that even a monkey with half a brain could complete it so well. I agree that in lfr it is so easy that you dont have to coordinate close to anything.

Well i think after all that different sources have stated in this very long thread and from personal experience. Its not a claim its reality that the balance just ain't there and things aren't equal.

The whole
Point is the two formats are not equal, therefore they schould not be regarded as equal.
They aren't equal in the same way. That doesn't mean they don't require the same (or roughly so) degree of effort.
Is still just non-sense and an attempt to talk about the same just with a different word attached to it.

Or will you claim that morchok and madness ain't the same difficulty wise but they still require the same effort...
Or that heroic ragnoras 10 man and 25 man where the averega killtimes are 9.3 and 11.4 mins ain't the same in difficulty but require the same effort...

difficulty is directly tied into the amount of effort you have to put into an encounter to master it.

[Chriztin]

well i prefer 10 man and i just happy the 40 man is dead

[Deleted]

well i prefer 10 man and i just happy the 40 man is dead

lol thats quite funny reminds me of this somehow.

[Deleted]

[QUOTE=Dax75;17204840]any guild can bring all the buffs they just have to build their raid properly.]/quote]

Howmany more bloody times - non top ranking guilds don't have this option. They raid with who they have got or they don't raid at all.

And a tip for you you can even use leatherworking drums to get a 4% kings buff it might be helpfull to know for you.

Aye, I know. Plenty of people don't, though.

Balancing an encounter around people making stupid setups all melee or people playing non optimal speccs for certain encounters...

....is what should be happening to suit the average raider.

dps has to be higher because of more dps yes the required raiddps is higher, but the average dps of every raider required in 25 is higher than in 10. Its like saying 10 guys you can finish this race if you drive 70 mph in each of your cars while you 25 people you have to drive 100mph in each of your cars to finish the race.
And yes i am dumbing it down just so that you might understand.

You aren't understanding - because your math is off, you divided the DPS by ten and by 25 and didn't allow for the fact that if you properly equalised the two raids out by manpower you should have 5-6 tanks and 8-10 healers in the 25. DPS is higher req in 25 man because DPS make up more of the raid. Christ.

For an average raidguild it is the same top guilds and medicore guilds and casual guilds face the same encounters, their ability or skill to master them are different.

There are vastly more mediocre guilds than top guilds. Any discussion of difficulty to make any sense in this mass market game must refer to the average guild, the average raid. Completely forget top guilds already, they are irrelevent.

If anything maybe blizzard again schould just break it up and make it a wrath model again then they can balance 10 to be able to include every moronic setup that you can think off.

The fact that they don't IS a difficulty level in and of itself for most guilds and most raids. Good lord. Needing all ranged DPS to stand a chance on some fights IS difficulty for a lot of ten man raiding guilds because they cannot attract anything like the exended roster that top flight guilds can.

[Deleted]

any guild can bring all the buffs they just have to build their raid properly.
And a tip for you you can even use leatherworking drums to get a 4% kings buff it might be helpfull to know for you

Balancing an encounter around people making stupid setups all melee or people playing non optimal speccs for certain encounters...
Only thing it proves is you can't raid with 5 melee dps in 10 man if you want it to be succesfull.
Because this could be funny i think neither would it be such a great idea to build a 25 man raid entirely consisting of melee dps...

dps has to be higher because of more dps yes the required raiddps is higher, but the average dps of every raider required in 25 is higher than in 10. Its like saying 10 guys you can finish this race if you drive 70 mph in each of your cars while you 25 people you have to drive 100mph in each of your cars to finish the race.
And yes i am dumbing it down just so that you might understand.

For an average raidguild it is the same top guilds and medicore guilds and casual guilds face the same encounters, their ability or skill to master them are different.

If anything maybe blizzard again schould just break it up and make it a wrath model again then they can balance 10 to be able to include every moronic setup that you can think off.

And @ talen.
I am asking you however to show me the factors, that make you say, that things have been balanced out.

and yes i am quite fixated on the question because you fail to answer it, dodge it or just plain move the responsibility of answering it. Its a bit like politicians and they do the same thing, only problem is political journalists just let them get away with it instead of asking the question again untill they get an answer so again for the fifth time.
I will ask you again then because you didn't answer the question:
pls show me the things that blizzard has done to balance around difference in coordination, spacing, raidfailcheck, difference in required dps and hps output etc. Because i can't find them.(and don't say you got 3!!!! combatrezzes, thats just laughable)

btw
You as an expert on lfr yes coordination is not a problem in lfr but its tuned so low that even a monkey with half a brain could complete it so well. I agree that in lfr it is so easy that you dont have to coordinate close to anything.

Well i think after all that different sources have stated in this very long thread and from personal experience. Its not a claim its reality that the balance just ain't there and things aren't equal.

The whole
Point is the two formats are not equal, therefore they schould not be regarded as equal.
They aren't equal in the same way. That doesn't mean they don't require the same (or roughly so) degree of effort.
Is still just non-sense and an attempt to talk about the same just with a different word attached to it.

Or will you claim that morchok and madness ain't the same difficulty wise but they still require the same effort...
Or that heroic ragnoras 10 man and 25 man where the averega killtimes are 9.3 and 11.4 mins ain't the same in difficulty but require the same effort...

difficulty is directly tied into the amount of effort you have to put into an encounter to master it.

Just to point out the obvious but you can't really prepare for every single aspect set-up wise as a 10 man guild. Rogues weren't important in T12, thus we didn't have a Rogue. Then comes T13 and we could either raid without a Rogue or we could kick a core raider to bring in a Rogue. That sort of scenario isn't bad planning, that's the way it is for 10 man guilds. Try doing H Warmaster with even 2 melee pre-nerf, that was impossible. So does that mean, that 10 man raid groups shouldn't have more than 1 melee in their raid?

[Deleted]

10 man groups can build their raidgroups how they want and so can 25 man groups unfortunatly not all raidcompositions are viabel in either format. Melee have somehow always been well in more danger than ranged, i remember the immortal runs in naxxramas where we said sry melee its to dangerous for you to stand near patchwerk go train your throwing skill. Or other encounters where we minimized the number of melee.
And yea blackthorn having no really good opportunity for cleaving uptime for melee in 10 did hurt. And that ranged in general being able to attack flyby drakes and certain ranged classes being able to dot those flyby drakes well gave range a great advantage.

The lucky thing for 10 man is that most of the time its 2 tank 2 healer 5 dps and 1 who switches between healing and dps. For 25 its not that simple here you have to get 2-3 extra healers in or out instead of dps for certain fights or have an extra tank.
I lashed out because going in with full melee would be idiotic.

I would like to add that i myself am coming from a medicore setting. And building a 10 man alt or main run around getting the core buffs was never a problem.
And i am against catering to the most stupid of the stupid. Beating a hard encounter is something that you can strive and work for in endgame it is fun, also for casual players it gives them something to work on. Just having everything handed on a platter waters it all out makes it boring makes it unrewarding so to say, and well people will just say this is so mind numbingly stupid i quit. (which again who knows maybe it is better just to quit wow and find other more interresting activities maybe painting or gardening^^)
And sry but seriously equalised raids by manpower i think your properly the only person on the planet who can come up with a completely ludecrious exampel like that but heck lets play along and se what would happen if you do that
6 tanks 9 healers and 10 dps vs. 2 tank 3 healers and 5 dps.
tanks count for ½ dps.
so we have 13 dps vs 6 dps
lets send them to ultraxion hes got 221 mio on 25 and 68 mio on 10
the fight for each takes 6 minutes at that time he enrages.
no how much damage per second does each dps have to make then.
per second the raid has to make
221.000.000 damage divided with 360 seconds= 613.000 damage/second
68.000.000 damage divided with 360 seconds = 188.889 damage/second

So how much damage does each raider have to contribute with each second well
613.000 dps divided with 13 = 47.222 dps
188.889 dps divided with 6 =31.481 dps

Wouldn't it be more natural to equalise the raid compare to what speccs most people play in wow?

[anaxie]

Why is this thread not dead yet.

[Deleted]

10 man groups can build their raidgroups how they want and so can 25 man groups unfortunatly not all raidcompositions in are viabel in either format. Melee have somehow always been well in more danger than ranged, i remember the immortal runs in naxxramas where we said sry melee its to dangerous for you to stand near patchwerk go train your throwing skill.

Nope. most raiding teams don't have the ability to chop and change when they fancy.

The lucky thing for 10 man is that most of the time its 2 tank 2 healer 5 dps and 1 who switches between healing and dps. For 25 its not that simple here you have to get 2-3 extra healers in or out instead of dps for certain fights or have an extra tank.
I lashed out because going in with full melee would be idiotic.

But it might be all you have on.

I would like to add that i myself am coming from a medicore setting. And building a 10 man around getting the core buffs was never a problem.
And i am against catering to the most stupid of the stupid. Beating a hard encounter is something that you can strive and work for in endgame it is fun, also for casual players it gives them something to work on. Just having everything handed on a platter waters it all out makes it boring makes it unrewarding so to say, and well people will just say this is so mind numbingly stupid i quit. (which again who knows maybe it is better just to quit wow and find other more interresting activities maybe painting or gardening^^)
And sry but seriously equalised raids by manpower i think your properly the only person on the planet who can come up with a completely ludecrious exampel like that but heck lets play along and se what would happen if you do that
6 tanks 9 healers and 10 dps vs. 2 tank 3 healers and 5 dps.
tanks count for ½ dps.
so we have 13 dps vs 6 dps
lets send them to ultraxion hes got 221 mio on 25 and 68 mio on 10
the fight for each takes 6 minutes at that time he enrages.
no how much damage per second does each dps have to make then.
per second the raid has to make
221.000.000 damage divided with 360 seconds= 613.000 damage/second
68.000.000 damage divided with 360 seconds = 188.889 damage/second

So how much damage does each raider have to contribute with each second well
613.000 dps divided with 13 = 47.222 dps
188.889 dps divided with 6 =31.481 dps

Wouldn't it be more natural to equalise the raid compare to what speccs most people play in wow?

13 dps?

What?

[Deleted]

You aren't understanding - because your math is off, you divided the DPS by ten and by 25 and didn't allow for the fact that if you properly equalised the two raids out by manpower you should have 5-6 tanks and 8-10 healers in the 25. DPS is higher req in 25 man because DPS make up more of the raid. Christ.

well don't blame me when you write stuff like this without thinking. And honestly the little calculations where only done to show how absolutlety stupid the thing that you wrote was.

[Deleted]

well don't blame me when you write stuff like this without thinking.

That was outlining why all DPS and HPS comparisons are worthless.

So now you can stop doing rhem.

Je-sus.

[Deleted]

yes that particularly up there with your made up 25 man setup vs 10 man is worthless except for showing that your an idiot.
<snip>
and sry again to the moderators that i am bordering on good tone for the forum.

Infracted - Wilderness

[Talen]

There have been many fights were the dps requirements on top level have been totally scewed in favor of 10 man.

And what you are failing to ask is "why?".

And don't tell me that top 10 mans are rolling without BoM/MotW buff or any other for that matter.
A comp of 7 people can bring all the buffage required today and top guilds have them all on.

Actually - its fairly irrelevant what top guilds can do. Blizzard doesn't balance around the cutting edge. And with good reason. The fact that top guilds can bring all the buffs in a 10 man situation doesn't matter.....because Blizzard cannot, at this time, guarantee that all buffs will be present or at least, that they'll have a decent chance of being present. There are too many possible combinations of classes and specs in a 10 man that result in critical raid buffs being missed.

That's one of the reasons balancing 10s and 25s wrt is so hard.

You are approaching this debate as if every group had an ideal set up....and thats one of many assumptions you make that is wrong.

any guild can bring all the buffs they just have to build their raid properly.

No. They can't. Not in 10s. Especially with Blizzards drive to "BTPNTC". When balancing the system, they can either assume all buffs are present, messing up those groups where they aren't, or assume only some/most are present...making things easier for groups with them all. The buff consolidation coming in MoP will hopefully alleviate this issue.

Balancing an encounter around people making stupid setups all melee or people playing non optimal speccs for certain encounters...

Which players actually do. Fortunately, or unfortunately (depending on your pov), Blizzard tries to accomodate a lot of different styles of play. Encounters need healers, tanks, DPS. After that, it gets a little more vague.

If anything maybe blizzard again schould just break it up and make it a wrath model again then they can balance 10 to be able to include every moronic setup that you can think off.

Which would be a viable solution if you can think of another solution to the various issues that model brought to the game. In the unlikely event that you do, you could send the suggestion to Blizzard.

I am asking you however to show me the factors, that make you say, that things have been balanced out.

and yes i am quite fixated on the question because you fail to answer it, dodge it or just plain move the responsibility of answering it.

I have answered it. You just don't like the answer. I will reword my response.

Blizzard balance the game around a number of factors. One of these factors is intra group coordination. Blizzard will adjust various features of an encounter such as health, timers, ranges, etc in order to bring the encounter to the difficulty level it wants it to have.

Coordination will be one factor which they likely consider as part of that process.

Now, you may not like the thought that Blizzard do consider coordination when balancing difficulties but as we know they are aware of the issues involved, it seems foolhardy to continue to make the argument they don't. You ask what factors they use to adjust? Health, timers, damage, ranges, etc. All the normal tools they use to balance the encounter. You seem to be asking for some unique mechanic or system Blizzard use to adjust for coordination and the increased chance of player error, but when one is pointed out - 3 CRs - you call it laughable and ask for something more meaningful. When its pointed out that Blizzard adjusts a lot of factors to bring an encounter to a desired level of difficulty, you again dismiss this as a non-answer.

Why? If Blizzard adjusts a raid for difficulty and accounts for coordination as part of that process - which seems very likely - why is it unacceptable, to you, that their normal tools for balancing an encounter might be sufficient to also account for difficulties in coordination.

Well i think after all that different sources have stated in this very long thread and from personal experience. Its not a claim its reality that the balance just ain't there and things aren't equal.

This thread is filled with people who state encounter X is more difficult in 10s and others who claim, just as fervently that they are wrong, that it is harder in 25s. I think its a bit of a stretch to move from that situation to claiming "all that different sources" - as thats only true if you dismiss the personal experience of others who have a different opinion than yourself. My personal experience,with the classes I run, with the groups I run with, is that some encounters are easier than others....and that the group I am with, and the class I play also has an effect.

YOUR personal experience may tell you that one format is routinely harder, even discounting the logistics side and simply considering the actual raid. Good. I can't dispute that. I see no reason to. MY personal experience, OTOH, tells me that some encounters are easier in 10s, others easier in 25s. That tells me that, on the whole, the balance that "just ain't there" for you does exist for me.

Point is the two formats are not equal, therefore they schould not be regarded as equal.

They give equal rewards, from equal content in a set of encounters that provides roughly the same degree of challenge and requires roughly the same degree of effort.

Whether that "roughly" means close enough is opinion. IMO, it is usually close enough. In yours, it isn't.

EJL