The Brewmaster Tanking Guide [5.4]

[djtravitrav]

All of you guys should honestly take a raid week and regem all crit instead of the haste you're using. You will then realize that gemming haste as a priority has been completely hyped up for no reason. You will barely notice a difference in your energy regeneration, and you will see greater results both defensively and dps wise.

I took the chance to do this over a month ago, and I don't regret it. It's like playing a different game.

[Deleted]

You killed Grand Empress three weeks after the first kills (two weeks after us, which I said we had an ilvl of around 500ish) and claimed that you had an ilvl of roughly ~490? Somehow I doubt that.
http://www.guildox.com/go/g.aspx?a=6

I do believe you are completely misinterpreting the situation as well. I was NOT mastery/stam specced at the point of death. I was in fact completely specced away from mastery/stam, which I further imply that if I had some more of those stats, I would probably not have died. After changing some reforges, enchants, and a couple gems around to provide more mastery/stam, I went back yesterday and killed her with no issues.



Really? I'd love to hear your reasoning on why chi brew isn't as good as ascension or power strikes. Please, enlighten me.

Perhaps you haven't played 10man? Let me explain how the loot works: You pass everything for dps or you die to enrage. Also, 2 loot / boss doesn't really give you that much lee-way compared to 5 loots/boss in 25m

We had problems with our fourth healer quitting on us (Tezza on armory). We ended up gearing an alt (Kaiju's priest (kaijuqtz)) ONLY for Empress only and he quit shortly there after). I was about ~490 ilvl when we killed Empress Hc. I went just above 500 after we killed Lei-shi Heroic. (I wish there was some way to prove this , I really do).

I don't want to make this into a 10m vs 25m thread but you should really look at your 25m kill vs 25m world first and our 10m kill vs 10m world first. That will give you a better view of the whole situation.

Chi brew has most likely already been discussed in this thread before. Read through it and if you don't find anything I will do a search for you and find the appropriate post. It is simply worse than both ascension and PS in every possible way.

All in all: Haste/Crit is the way to go. If you gem for mastery you simply rely on your healers carrying you to victory and you admit you cannot play your class to it's full potential. That's my honest opinion.

[kaiadam]

Perhaps you haven't played 10man? Let me explain how the loot works: You pass everything for dps or you die to enrage.

We had problems with our fourth healer quitting on us (Tezza on armory). We ended up gearing an alt (Kaiju's priest (kaijuqtz)) ONLY for Empress only and he quit shortly there after). I was about ~490 ilvl when we killed Empress Hc. I went just above 500 after we killed Lei-shi Heroic. (I wish there was some way to prove this , I really do).

I don't want to make this into a 10m vs 25m thread but you should really look at your 25m kill vs 25m world first and our 10m kill vs 10m world first. That will give you a better view of the whole situation.

Chi brew has most likely already been discussed in this thread before. Read through it and if you don't find anything I will do a search for you and find the appropriate post. It is simply worse than both ascension and PS in every possible way.

As a matter of fact I raid 10m as well (we're progressing on Sha right now though, so a few months behind.) From what I can tell, dps checks are roughly comparable and usually more lenient in 10m (10m sha kills are done by the waves of 7 in p2, 25m first kills easily reach second wave of 8 and sometimes first wave of 9). But yes, lets not turn this into a 10 vs 25m debate, and concentrate on the fact that you're advocating haste for dps?? Haste is not a dps gain, or rather, it really only adds to autoattack with an almost imperceptible increase to special damage.

As for chi, I'm sure someone somewhere did a calculation that power strikes and ascension both result in higher chi/min than chi brew. While I don't disagree, I believe they ignored the fence post issue where with chi brew you straight off start the fight with 4 more initially. Here's a handy chart I made:



Notice that even at the 7 minute mark, chi brew yields more chi (and most of the time by multiple chi) than either of the other two talents.

Only until (roughly) the 12 minute mark does power strikes actually catch up. I am saying:

Sum of (t=0 to 700) [Extra chi from chi brew - extra chi from power strikes] = 0.

Anytime before that, chi brew is still ahead.

I didn't bother to do the math for ascension since power strikes is better in every way but convenience and aoe, but I'd assume you'd need around a 16 minute fight at 5k haste to reach the same extra chi values.

As the vast majority of the encounters in this tier are sub-12-minutes, I keep chi brew for them and swap to ascension for Sha.

[Deleted]

As a matter of fact I raid 10m as well (we're progressing on Sha right now though, so a few months behind.) From what I can tell, dps checks are roughly comparable and usually more lenient in 10m (10m sha kills are done by the waves of 7 in p2, 25m first kills easily reach second wave of 8 and sometimes first wave of 9). But yes, lets not turn this into a 10 vs 25m debate, and concentrate on the fact that you're advocating haste for dps?? Haste is not a dps gain, or rather, it really only adds to autoattack yet you end up doing lower special damage. 3x Tiger palm > 2x jab + blackout kick.

As for chi, I'm sure someone somewhere did a calculation that power strikes and ascension both result in higher chi/min than chi brew. While I don't disagree, I believe they ignored the fence post issue where with chi brew you straight off start the fight with 4 more initially. Here's a handy chart I made:



Notice that even at the 7 minute mark, chi brew yields more chi (and most of the time by multiple chi) than either of the other two talents.

Only until (roughly) the 12 minute mark does power strikes actually catch up. I am saying:

Sum of (t=0 to 700) [Extra chi from chi brew - extra chi from power strikes] = 0.

Anytime before that, chi brew is still ahead.

I didn't bother to do the math for ascension since power strikes is better in every way but convenience and aoe, but I'd assume you'd need around a 16 minute fight at 5k haste to reach the same extra chi values.

As the vast majority of the encounters in this tier are sub-12-minutes, I keep chi brew for them and swap to ascension for Sha.

Edit: When I said pass loot for dps I meant (in this case) pass loot for a rogue instead of taking it yourself. I never said haste=dps as it's minimal compared to mastery (yet better than nothing - which is what mastery gives). As I mentioned, 2 loots per boss doesn't give you much lee-way compared to 25m. Still waiting for first leather agi belt from Terrace for example, never got 1h weapon from garajal, cloak from Msv etc... list goes on. You simply pass for dps and beg to god that it drops again next week.

5k haste? who plays with that? (and gems haste, not mastery)

do the same with 8-9k haste and you'll see that Chi brew is not worth it.

[kaiadam]

At 9k haste, ascension gives you the -exact- same extra chi/min as power strikes, minus the initial free chi you get at t=0.

It overtakes chi brew roughly around the 13.5 minute mark.

[djtravitrav]

At 9k haste, ascension gives you the -exact- same extra chi/min as power strikes, minus the initial free chi you get at t=0.

It overtakes chi brew roughly around the 13.5 minute mark.

What you aren't taking into account is that there aren't going to be times where you ABSOLUTELY need 4 chi in the middle of a boss fight. If you pop chi brew even when empty on chi, you will energy cap before you spend that chi. It's amazing pre-pull, I'll give you that, but consistent chi generation throughout the duration of the fight > than a burst that results in wasted resources.

[Deleted]

At 9k haste, ascension gives you the -exact- same extra chi/min as power strikes, minus the initial free chi you get at t=0.

It overtakes chi brew roughly around the 13.5 minute mark.

Yet my own calculation along with elitistjerks tells me that at around ~7k haste Ascension pasts Chi brew in chi/min - pretty much regardless of time in combat.

I dunno what you're using for math but in my case, Ascension/PS is a lot better than chi brew at decent haste values. [~7,5k+. Say 8k+ to be certain ^.^)

That is - without heroism/bloodlust taking into considerion - which for certain will benefit Ascention more than Chi brew.

Edit (I like to edit) That is without counting the loss of being able to spam EH inbetween melee hits if the situation allows you to. Sure, it's not often but it has for certain helped a few times.

[kaiadam]

What you aren't taking into account is that there aren't going to be times where you ABSOLUTELY need 4 chi in the middle of a boss fight. If you pop chi brew even when empty on chi, you will energy cap before you spend that chi. It's amazing pre-pull, I'll give you that, but consistent chi generation throughout the duration of the fight > than a burst that results in wasted resources.

What? Chi brew is off the gcd, so you're saying you can not find a moment where you a.) are at 0 chi and b.) at under 70 energy??? I think that's stretching the truth a bit.

Yet my own calculation along with elitistjerks tells me that at around ~7k haste Ascension pasts Chi brew in chi/min - pretty much regardless of time in combat.

I believe the 7k number, but again, fence post issue. You start the fight off with 4 extra chi when you spec chi brew. You can't disagree that at t=0, chi brew gives you more chi than ascension (which has given you none.) Down the line, because ascension results in higher chi gen, yes, it will overtake that 4 chi head start eventually, but as I mentioned earlier, by the time it does, you've already killed the boss five minutes ago.

[Deleted]

What? Chi brew is off the gcd, so you're saying you can not find a moment where you a.) are at 0 chi and b.) at under 70 energy??? I think that's stretching the truth a bit.




I believe the 7k number, but again, fence post issue. You start the fight off with 4 extra chi when you spec chi brew. You can't disagree that at t=0, chi brew gives you more chi than ascension (which has given you none.) Down the line, because ascension results in higher chi gen, yes, it will overtake that 4 chi head start eventually, but as I mentioned earlier, by the time it does, you've already killed the boss five minutes ago.

Now the real question is

Does that 4 chi in the beginning of an encounter really help? considering all healers are at 100% mana and every single person in the raid has every CD ready.

Do you really feel it's worth gimping your post ~7min marker survivability to bump your pre <30sec survivability?

I for sure don't, now again. Maybe that's just me..

[Deleted]

3x Tiger palm > 2x jab + blackout kick

That's a false statement.

[kaiadam]

It's not just the first 30 seconds, chi brew gives you more chi more of the time in the first 7 minutes than either power strikes or ascension. Especially when you're running with sub 3k haste like me, chi brew is simply the better talent.

Are you able to predict when shit will happen™? I certainly can't. It may happen in the first minute, it may happen at 7 minutes. Could be anywhere in-between. I'm picking the talent that gives me the highest amount of chi for the longest periods of time that I'm likely to be in combat. Which I argue is the smartest answer for my monk, contrary to your earlier statement:

You have even gone for Chi Brew which is plain and simple terrible for BM monks

----

That's a false statement.

You know what, my mistake on that. I picked a random fight and did the math and it came out to be that way, but it seems the majority of the time, the two jabs + bok outdamages 3 tiger palms by 5%. I made a premature statement off of insufficient data. Mea culpa.

[Asmalya]

Are you able to predict when shit will happen™? I certainly can't. It may happen in the first minute, it may happen at 7 minutes. Could be anywhere in-between.

See...that sentence is what makes Chi brew so bad for me.
You cant tell when you need oh shit chi. So eitehr you hold on with brew and dont use it on cd (then your calculation from above is simply wrong).
Or you use it on CD and you dont even need that much chi. Or you use it, bk 1-2 times and then find yourself in a situatiion where using guard and t30 and pb quickly would be very very nice..sadly you don t get a ps proc or have the awesome energy reg from asc.

Its the same with ps. You might get 3-4 more chi over the fight but being able to generare enough energy to pb / guard if shit hits the fan is much more important to me.

[Deleted]

the two jabs + bok outdamages 3 tiger palms by 5%

By 12.4% actually. The average damage of all Brewmaster melee abilities is (weapon_dps*0.36 + AP*0.091)*coefficient
The coefficient is 1.5 for Jab, 3 for Tiger Palm and 7.12 for Blackout Kick
1.5*2 + 7.12 = 10.12
3 * 3 = 9
10.12 / 9 = 1.1244
Fortunately for us, most Brewmaster game tooltips are accurate, and you can check that on you Monk. For mine, the average damage (without any buffs) in the tooltip of Jab is 8148, TB is 16297 and BoK is 38679
38679 + 2*8148 = 1.1244*3*16297

[Deleted]

It's not just the first 30 seconds, chi brew gives you more chi more of the time in the first 7 minutes than either power strikes or ascension. Especially when you're running with sub 3k haste like me, chi brew is simply the better talent.

Are you able to predict when shit will happen™? I certainly can't. It may happen in the first minute, it may happen at 7 minutes. Could be anywhere in-between. I'm picking the talent that gives me the highest amount of chi for the longest periods of time that I'm likely to be in combat. Which I argue is the smartest answer for my monk, contrary to your earlier statement:

I can for certain predict when "shit will happen". To me it's pretty obvious tbh. Only takes 1-2 tries on an encounter to see what's difficult and what's ez-mode to survive. (And for the rest of the tries I have much more control of my survivability compared to 'I hope my healers react in time' which obviously doesn't work - proven by yourself on Empress). As long as you keep 3+ chi saved up for chi wave on yourself as first target + PB you can survive pretty much any burst dmg - Really everything besides dread trash (1 GCD doing both abilities aka less time than inbetween boss melee hits).

Also for the CB vs PS/Ascention discussion. It's not all about achieving the optimal amount of chi/min it's a mixture of chi/min along with a steady income of chi AND energy regen - Which is something CB gives neither of. The only thing it's really good for is the "oh shit" moments - in which case you should have a "real CD" ready - and you WILL if you gem for haste, guaranteed - as it will not happen as often compared to if you gem for mastery.

[The Madgod]

All of you guys should honestly take a raid week and regem all crit instead of the haste you're using. You will then realize that gemming haste as a priority has been completely hyped up for no reason. You will barely notice a difference in your energy regeneration, and you will see greater results both defensively and dps wise.

I took the chance to do this over a month ago, and I don't regret it. It's like playing a different game.

It's absolutely "hyped up" for a reason. if you don't understand it, then that's a completely different can of worms!

The higher your haste, the more breathing room you have in maintaining shuffle and the quicker you can stack it.

Losing 1-2k haste will feel pretty different, especially if you have Ascendance.

As for chi, I'm sure someone somewhere did a calculation that power strikes and ascension both result in higher chi/min than chi brew. While I don't disagree, I believe they ignored the fence post issue where with chi brew you straight off start the fight with 4 more initially. Here's a handy chart I made:



Notice that even at the 7 minute mark, chi brew yields more chi (and most of the time by multiple chi) than either of the other two talents.

Only until (roughly) the 12 minute mark does power strikes actually catch up. I am saying:

Sum of (t=0 to 700) [Extra chi from chi brew - extra chi from power strikes] = 0.

Anytime before that, chi brew is still ahead.

I didn't bother to do the math for ascension since power strikes is better in every way but convenience and aoe, but I'd assume you'd need around a 16 minute fight at 5k haste to reach the same extra chi values.

As the vast majority of the encounters in this tier are sub-12-minutes, I keep chi brew for them and swap to ascension for Sha.

There are downsides to Chi Brew that are mitigated or don't even exist in the other choices, namely, ability management. PS is a proc and Ascendance is a passive, and therefore both have little to no management necessary to use them to their fullest capability, especially if one has weak auras. Ascendance also allows a greater ability to store chi if you need it, and allows for the best snap chi generation at any random point in a fight (Chi Brew has the highest snap-generation, but because it has a cooldown associated with it, it is therefore unreliable if shit hits the fan, so to speak, unless you save it for those moments, in which case its overall chi generation is shot.)

And once more, I have never had a moment where extra mastery would have benefited me more than proper planning. I've found tweaking my play provides a greater boon than tweaking my mastery rating... that can mean anything from EB timing to what externals I'm calling for. And I can understand your whole thing with Guard and how you want to use it only for expected spikes... but it's like the whole deal with Chi Brew. If you save it for those times when it's AMAZINGLY necessary, chances are that you're taking a lot of unnecessary damage. I find that extremely counter productive, as a tank. Guard is a big part of our active mitigation. If you treat it like a cooldown, at the very least treat it like a liberal cooldown. You used Dampen Harm (an actual legitimate cooldown) the exact same number of times, for God's sake!

[djtravitrav]

It's absolutely "hyped up" for a reason. if you don't understand it, then that's a completely different can of worms!

The higher your haste, the more breathing room you have in maintaining shuffle and the quicker you can stack it.

Losing 1-2k haste will feel pretty different, especially if you have Ascendance.

By your own statement the only purpose to stack more haste is to allow room for errors to be made in your rotation. Why not just play the game correctly and stack a stat that is actually beneficial to you and your raid? Trying to condescend me saying I don't understand how the class works is quite silly.

[The Madgod]

By your own statement the only purpose to stack more haste is to allow room for errors to be made in your rotation. Why not just play the game correctly and stack a stat that is actually beneficial to you and your raid? Trying to condescend me saying I don't understand how the class works is quite silly.

Let me explain it another way, then, since I don't think you got it.

At base energy regen, you have the ability to generate 24 chi (on average) in a minute. That's enough, JUST ENOUGH for shuffle and Guard. However at 11 energy regen per second, it takes roughly four seconds to get enough energy to use jab / KS. That means if you use two jabs to get a BoK off, you're actually running shuffle at a deficit of 1.27 seconds.

Factoring in movement, purifying brew, and other variables that make it hard to enjoy raid dummy maths, you're running a higher risk of your shuffle dropping and making your uptime sub-optimal. More haste you have, the faster you can build up shuffle, and the less you need to worry about it. If you're saying that's not important, then I'm a bit flabbergasted.

Obviously, you found your haste point where you're able to comfortably have high shuffle uptime and are able to focus on other aspects of the class, but that point isn't going to be the same for everyone, and your "My way or you suck" attitude is quite frankly not one that I would like to see here. Hell, I agree with you in a sense. The less haste and expertise you feel is necessary for you to play well, the better off you'll be (by stacking more crit). I'm not really arguing against the math or the general theory, more of the polarizing, elitist attitude.

[Deleted]

By your own statement the only purpose to stack more haste is to allow room for errors to be made in your rotation. Why not just play the game correctly and stack a stat that is actually beneficial to you and your raid? Trying to condescend me saying I don't understand how the class works is quite silly.

Not only does it allow room for error(The tiny bonus) but it also allows you too bank chi and use it whenever it's needed instead of being in the "oh shit moments" with 1-2 chi and not being able to do the appropriate abilities to survive.

With a maximum of 5 chi along with higher energy regen you can have 3+ chi saved 24/7 ready for use whenever it's needed, more or less negating any high burst damage incoming.


This is all along bonus that you can EH more often with higher energy/s compared to CB/PS which give 0 and on the few fight that it matters - you can ALSO use energy costing abilities more often than otherwise without losing as much as you would otherwise.



I still haven't seen any reason to pick CB over PS/Ascension other than the first <30 seconds of an encounter, please remind me again - why is it important to have 4 more chi when an encounter begins at which every healer is at 100% mana with every single CD ready?

[Chuupag]

Mist did change the Crit reduction on bosses. Bosses have a 4.5% Melee Crit Reduction (1.5% Crit Reduction per level over the character [1.5% verses 91; 3% verses 92; 4.5% verses 93/Boss])

This didn't have anything to do with crit depression, it is a glancing blows issue.

[Hinalover]

Glancing Blows is only 24% of all white attacks, after that it's Hit + Exp + (Crit + Crit Seprestion) + hit makes up the rest of the white attacks