The Brewmaster Tanking Guide [5.4]

[Castif]

Hey I just wanted to throw this out there. Please note though that I did not read through the whole thread as brewmaster is not one of the specs im interested in because I currently plan on using my pally for my tank class

I saw that on the stat priority guide you listed parry=dodge, the changes to 5.04 and mop currently have parry>dodge because parry has roughly half the dr rate of dodge. For example (numbers made up) 1000parry= 10%parry and 1000dodge= 5%dodge at higher parry/dodge lvls.

If this has already been acounted for but the guide updated pls forgive me like I said I did not have a chance to read through the whole thread.

[The Madgod]

Hey I just wanted to throw this out there. Please note though that I did not read through the whole thread as brewmaster is not one of the specs im interested in because I currently plan on using my pally for my tank class

I saw that on the stat priority guide you listed parry=dodge, the changes to 5.04 and mop currently have parry>dodge because parry has roughly half the dr rate of dodge. For example (numbers made up) 1000parry= 10%parry and 1000dodge= 5%dodge at higher parry/dodge lvls.

If this has already been acounted for but the guide updated pls forgive me like I said I did not have a chance to read through the whole thread.

I have not updated stat priority for a while, so no, it's not accounted for at least in the guide, though I appreciate the input.

[Deleted]

So, i got a question regarding gemming my Brewmaster. Consider i am hit capped and expertise soft capped, would it be a valid way to just gem agility in the slots with a second stat bonus? And mixed agility gems in the ones with a agility bonus? Considering i only get one set of gear.

Erm as it stands its still worth getting to the expertise card cap

It should go like this: hit and expertise soft cap it should be: expertise (all the way to the hard cap) -> haste -> crit ->parry -> dodge -> mastery

Or if your really stuck put it into a spreadsheet and see, but it seems that monks stat weighing is depending a lot on your play style

[Hijiri]

As for stamina, I always consider a minimum stamina that varies per boss.
(For Dragonsoul Vorsahj's yellow slime phase and Madness if you take both tentacle debuffs for example)
For progression fights we will have the the option of 1,500 stam flask and 450 (or 415 if you're cheap) stam food.

As for Parry/Dodge this may mean that we reforge to Parry yet not into Dodge.
We will have plenty of Dodge, especially if at least one of the two raid dodge trinkets are used.

[lebronjar]

So excited!!

[Deleted]

I have not updated stat priority for a while, so no, it's not accounted for at least in the guide, though I appreciate the input.

I assume you'll be updating them soon? as well as the gemming part

Current stat weights are as following:
Agi : 1.769
Exp : 1.277
Haste : 1.009
Crit : 0.853
Armor : 0.851
Parry : 0.769
Dodge : 0.717
Mastery : 0.495

(I rounded them up but i have the exact values if needed)

As for gemming its better to gem pure exp (till you hit the hard cap) and then pure haste, if you work out the stat weights with the new mop gems then you'll see why

[The Madgod]

I assume you'll be updating them soon? as well as the gemming part

Current stat weights are as following:
Agi : 1.769
Exp : 1.277
Haste : 1.009
Crit : 0.853
Armor : 0.851
Parry : 0.769
Dodge : 0.717
Mastery : 0.495

(I rounded them up but i have the exact values if needed)

As for gemming its better to gem pure exp (till you hit the hard cap) and then pure haste, if you work out the stat weights with the new mop gems then you'll see why

I'd like to see a source on this, as well as see how much haste it takes to increase energy generation by 1, since it seems rather inefficient to rely on a stat that, when it increases your energy by 1, it will only allow you to use one extra BoK every 80 seconds (Equivalent to 0.25% extra stagger (with 100% uptime) & 0.25% extra parry) or one extra PB every 40 seconds.

[Chuupag]

I assume you'll be updating them soon? as well as the gemming part

Current stat weights are as following:
Agi : 1.769
Exp : 1.277
Haste : 1.009
Crit : 0.853
Armor : 0.851
Parry : 0.769
Dodge : 0.717
Mastery : 0.495

(I rounded them up but i have the exact values if needed)

As for gemming its better to gem pure exp (till you hit the hard cap) and then pure haste, if you work out the stat weights with the new mop gems then you'll see why

Your numbers are misleading. Ven's spreadsheet, found at www(dot)filedropper.com/brewmastergearksenergycopy (remember to enable macros), shows that changing the frequency of abilities (on CD vs human 'latency'), your estimated usage of healing spheres(including estimated overheals), and several other things all change the relative numbers. The general rule of thumb is agil > hit >= exp > haste > crit > parry > dodge > mastery, with armor also being very lucrative. The exact numbers will change depending on so many different factors that it's basically pointless to tell people stat weights to the .001 accuracy, when just changing guard from on CD to on CD+1second may swing those numbers by an order of magnitude larger than that. Every secondary stat except mastery seems to be better gemmed that agil, meaning 2 of hit/exp/haste/crit/parry/dodge is better than 1 agil. That does not seem to change, but giving people such detailed numbers rather than showing them how to come up with their own numbers just seems like making problems for new brewmasters that could be avoided with proper education.

[Shamanberry]

I'd like to see a source on this, as well as see how much haste it takes to increase energy generation by 1, since it seems rather inefficient to rely on a stat that, when it increases your energy by 1, it will only allow you to use one extra BoK every 80 seconds (Equivalent to 0.25% extra stagger (with 100% uptime) & 0.25% extra parry) or one extra PB every 40 seconds.

Haste also increases your autoattack speed, which is far more important than what it does to energy regen.

More attacks = more Gift of the Ox and Elusive Brew stacks. Increased expertise is the best way to do that, which haste coming in second. As a bonus with expertise, you also get fewer misses on Keg Smash (which is always a loss of 1 chi, 8 energy, and 1 GCD) or Jab, which leads to better uptime on your Shuffle in the long run.

Agility is technically better (it increases crit, dodge, and attack power, which increases the size of your heals and shields), but it's usually not twice as good as the secondary stats, and gems and the like tend to give you 2:1 for secondaryrimary stats in MoP. That's why gemming expertise and haste tends to be better than gemming agi, even if agi is technically a better stat.

It's worth noting that currently no strategy for gearing is going to get you to a point where you're taking comparable damage to any other tank, so you have to rely on your self-healing and avoidance. That will probably change post-release, since it's going to lead to a very RNG-centric tank with no significant health buffer. But for now, this is the best we can do.

[Chuupag]

I'd like to see a source on this, as well as see how much haste it takes to increase energy generation by 1, since it seems rather inefficient to rely on a stat that, when it increases your energy by 1, it will only allow you to use one extra BoK every 80 seconds (Equivalent to 0.25% extra stagger (with 100% uptime) & 0.25% extra parry) or one extra PB every 40 seconds.

Mad I know I've seen the numbers on the amount of haste required to get an extra chi/min, but I don't remember where. Those numbers could also be outdated at this point. I'll try to dig it up and/or crunch the numbers myself when I get some time.

[The Madgod]

Haste also increases your autoattack speed, which is far more important than what it does to energy regen.

More attacks = more Gift of the Ox and Elusive Brew stacks. Increased expertise is the best way to do that, which haste coming in second. As a bonus with expertise, you also get fewer misses on Keg Smash (which is always a loss of 1 chi, 8 energy, and 1 GCD) or Jab, which leads to better uptime on your Shuffle in the long run.

Agility is technically better (it increases crit, dodge, and attack power, which increases the size of your heals and shields), but it's usually not twice as good as the secondary stats, and gems and the like tend to give you 2:1 for secondaryrimary stats in MoP. That's why gemming expertise and haste tends to be better than gemming agi, even if agi is technically a better stat.

It's worth noting that currently no strategy for gearing is going to get you to a point where you're taking comparable damage to any other tank, so you have to rely on your self-healing and avoidance. That will probably change post-release, since it's going to lead to a very RNG-centric tank with no significant health buffer. But for now, this is the best we can do.

Ahn, I can understand that too. Still, it would be nice to have the numbers so I can see this for myself. I've been a big skeptic of haste being that amazing of a stat for tanking, and it would help the guide, and the people who want to read it, which really is what matters.

Mad I know I've seen the numbers on the amount of haste required to get an extra chi/min, but I don't remember where. Those numbers could also be outdated at this point. I'll try to dig it up and/or crunch the numbers myself when I get some time.

I would appreciate this, friend ^^

[Wreckage827]

Ahn, I can understand that too. Still, it would be nice to have the numbers so I can see this for myself. I've been a big skeptic of haste being that amazing of a stat for tanking, and it would help the guide, and the people who want to read it, which really is what matters.



I would appreciate this, friend ^^

Actually someone did a little bit of that math on page 16 post 2 in this exact thread. SEE BELOW....

The one problem I have with Haste as a whole is the idea that it actually takes quite a bit to even gain 1 additional energy per second.

Let's just assume you sit at 11 EPS. You get enough Haste to somehow get to 12 EPS (about ~10%). That means you have the potential to gain 3 jabs/chi per 2 minutes. So on a per-minute basis, 1% Haste will approximately equals 0.15 additional Chi generated.

Compare that to a 3.6 Staff (ends up being ~2.5 via Way of the Monk), and trading that 10% Haste for even 5% Crit...
Assuming you have ~10% crit base, you get ~2.4 Crits per minute, thus ~7.2 EB charges - or a passive 3.6% dodge (assuming you EB every chance you can).
Add that 5% I mentioned above, and you'll get ~3.6 Crits per minute, thus ~10.8 EB charges - or a passive 5.4% dodge (assuming you EB every chance you can).

And unfortunately with Crit (from my basic napkin math), we're left with an effective parabola of benefit - where lower levels (i.e. 10% to 11%) will provide much larger benefit than higher levels (i.e. 50% to 51%) to your overall % to passive dodge.

That said, I'd much rather take more Dodge via Crit, opposed to gaining 1 BoK (6 seconds of stagger) per 80 seconds.

And speaking of preferring avoidance...

I know this is something that comes up with Protection Warriors, where they prefer Parry much more so to Dodge due to Dodge having a much lower DR cap than Parry.
But do BrewMasters have a similar treatment? Because basically everything I've seen is just Parry = Dodge, but no information regarding DR.

Currently in BETA a lvl 90 Brewmaster has 11 Energy per second (EPS) wearing nothing. It takes ~9% haste to give us another 1 EPS.

In full Conquest PVP gear on Beta I am at 11.74 EPS with 6.74% Haste

As it was mentioned above EJ has a pretty good grasp on the stat weights and so on, I would suggest looking at some of their information and comparing it with what you might have.

The following spreadsheet is located at: http://www.filedropper.com/brewmastergearksenergycopy
All props go to Venyasure over at EJ.

[The Madgod]

Actually someone did a little bit of that math on page 16 post 2 in this exact thread. SEE BELOW....

Yes, I've seen Radux' post in regards to this matter, it's a big part of why I'm reluctant to be using haste all that much.

Currently in BETA a lvl 90 Brewmaster has 11 Energy per second (EPS) wearing nothing. It takes ~9% haste to give us another 1 EPS.

In full Conquest PVP gear on Beta I am at 11.74 EPS with 6.74% Haste

Well how much haste rating does it take to hit that, then, and is it subject to DR?

From there we can then discuss whether or not that amount of haste would be put to better use in other stats.

[Wreckage827]

Yes, I've seen Radux' post in regards to this matter, it's a big part of why I'm reluctant to be using haste all that much.



Well how much haste rating does it take to hit that, then, and is it subject to DR?

From there we can then discuss whether or not that amount of haste would be put to better use in other stats.

It will take about 9.1% to get to 12 EPS. To my knowledge Haste does not have DR.

---------- Post added 2012-09-15 at 04:13 PM ----------

Is this still accurate? I thought base regen was 8 per second and our energy got nerfed from +30% to +10% the other day, meaning base for BM would be 8.8.

I am sitting naked in stormwind (all alone) with 11 EPS

[The Madgod]

But that 9% haste is also giving your crit chance * 9 extra procs of elusive brew per min, as well as more GotO procs.

Well where do you get that from?

Wouldn't it be more like <% crit chance> * 1.09 = n extra procs per minute? multiplying 25% by 9 would mean there's nine times the attacks going on, or was all that just a clerical error?

[Chuupag]

Currently in BETA a lvl 90 Brewmaster has 11 Energy per second (EPS) wearing nothing. It takes ~9% haste to give us another 1 EPS.

In full Conquest PVP gear on Beta I am at 11.74 EPS with 6.74% Haste

Is that still accurate? I thought base was 8 energy/second. And out energy got nerfed the other day from +30% to +10 percent, meaning base for BM would be 8.8. If I am correct the following info is accurate.

So it looks like the information was spread over several different posts on several different forums and my brain was just unconsciously collating them...go me.

With just the free pvp gear on the beta, and reforging to hit cap -> exp hard cap -> haste gives you just under 9% haste and about 9.6 energy/sec. Without powerstrikes that gives about 43 chi/2min when keg smash is used on CD and jab/expel harm for the rest. Compare this to 0 haste and 41 chi/2min. So it takes a little less than 9% haste to give 1 extra chi per min. But that 9% haste is also giving your crit chance * 9 extra procs of elusive brew per min, as well as more GotO procs

[The Madgod]

It will take about 9.1% to get to 12 EPS. To my knowledge Haste does not have DR.

That's all well and good, but I'm looking for haste RATING, not percent. We know how much haste percent it will take to get 1 extra chi per minute, but in order to translate that into terms of how good it is relative to other stats, we need to see the raw haste rating.

[Chuupag]

Well where do you get that from?

Wouldn't it be more like <% crit chance> * 1.09 = n extra procs per minute? multiplying 25% by 9 would mean there's nine times the attacks going on, or was all that just a clerical error?

Sorry forums gremlins have been messing up some stuff for me. 9% haste gives you 9 extra white attacks per 100 attacks, not per min. So if you have 33% crit and 9% haste you will get an extra 3 crits in those extra attacks.

---------- Post added 2012-09-15 at 07:17 PM ----------

That's all well and good, but I'm looking for haste RATING, not percent. We know how much haste percent it will take to get 1 extra chi per minute, but in order to translate that into terms of how good it is relative to other stats, we need to see the raw haste rating.

3757 haste.

340 Hit Rating = 1% Hit
340 Expertise Rating = 1% Expertise
600 Crit Rating = 1% Crit
425 Haste Rating = 1% Haste
600 Mastery Rating = 1 Mastery

[Wreckage827]

That's all well and good, but I'm looking for haste RATING, not percent. We know how much haste percent it will take to get 1 extra chi per minute, but in order to translate that into terms of how good it is relative to other stats, we need to see the raw haste rating.

6.74% Haste = 2863 Haste Rating

9.28% Haste = 3945 Haste Rating

It is REALLY easy to get that 12 EPS. Especially if we end up gemming secondary stats.

[The Madgod]

So the question then becomes how many more stacks will you get per minute using, say, a 3.3 speed staff like Gao-Rei with 9% haste in comparison to base haste levels.

So lets see here, if I'm right, the general formula should be...

60 / (<base speed of weapon> * (1-(% haste/100) ) ) * (% crit / 100) * # stacks per proc = stacks of EB per minute

6.74% Haste = 2863 Haste Rating

9.28% Haste = 3945 Haste Rating

It is REALLY easy to get that 12 EPS

It's not necessarily how easy it is to get it, it's how useful that extra energy per second is relative to the defensive abilities of other stats.