The Brewmaster Tanking Guide [5.4]

[Deleted]

Thanks. After reading what you guys were discussing about, I came to conclusion that I'm not doing it that wrong... although I'm not sure if having +528 haste is better than having +700 stamina.

really depends ... If you are interested in tanking heroics ... go for the haste. If you want to tank MoV normal modes, normally go for the haste. If you start heroic MoV go for Stam for the first 2 Bosses, since they make a large amount of their dmg by dots which you can not avoid. Go for max avoid, haste for the third boss. Thats as far as I am and what i would propose.

[SurrealNight]

I'm slightly confused about the discussion about a exp 'soft cap.'

My references to the soft cap are based on AMR's values. It has 0.85 up to 7.5% then drops to 0.35 after. My comments weren't meant to discuss if 7.5% or the hard cap is better directly. Just that AMR will basically leave you at or below the soft cap.

Thanks. After reading what you guys were discussing about, I came to conclusion that I'm not doing it that wrong... although I'm not sure if having +528 haste is better than having +700 stamina.

You won't need the stam for normal modes. I'm destroying our warrior in both mitigation and DPS. The only thing I want right now is more Chi (and gear!).

I'm using an agil flask and the stam food (panda's get +750 stam which is pretty awesome) and gemming/reforging based on AMR's WW spec (not the meta).

[Chuupag]

My references to the soft cap are based on AMR's values. It has 0.85 up to 7.5% then drops to 0.35 after. My comments weren't meant to discuss if 7.5% or the hard cap is better directly. Just that AMR will basically leave you at or below the soft cap.

AMR needs to lay off the hooch then...b/c that makes about as much sense as bat shit on a sandwich. There is absolutely no difference in the benefit per point going from 7.49% to 7.5% to 7.51%. And even having 7.5% is too much now according to the spreadsheet.

[SurrealNight]

AMR needs to lay off the hooch then...b/c that makes about as much sense as bat shit on a sandwich. There is absolutely no difference in the benefit per point going from 7.49% to 7.5% to 7.51%. And even having 7.5% is too much now according to the spreadsheet.

Refer to Zoopercat's post on page 45. Mathematically it's doing exactly what AMR is designed to do correctly just in practice doesn't understand the goal of BrM's reaching those caps. Pretty sure AMR isn't using the EJ spreadsheet model for BrM's as it just references stat weights.

This is just my opinion but the soft cap vs spreadsheet below cap weights may be more of a personal preference thing right now. I'm not willing to accept a KS getting a miss/dodge right now, would make me a sad panda. I've mentally accepted the very few parry's are worth the extra haste by not hitting hard cap.

[nobuobr]

-Snip-

Yeah, those dots on Feng really hurts when my partner doesn't taunt. I like having a nice amount of haste, my rotation just feels more fluid with it.

-Snip-

My partner is a warrior too and he's so full of himself because of his high stam/health pool. But he gets beaten like a clothie. At least I can mitigate lots of damage and hit like a trunk. I too use agil flask with stam food with bonuses. Thanks again guys.

[Deleted]

Is it viable to use haste stamina hybrid gems and such when you gem your gear to give your self that little bit more hp, or should I use just the pure haste? What about stamina and mastery gearing, i've searched for information about the 2 methods of gearings and the pros and cons of both but i just can not find it any where.

[Horace]

So my group of friends is finally starting to dabble into Challenge Modes. Have anyone tried it out yet? Would a more mastery laden gear selection be prefered? I could imagine a brewmaster could be okay when it comes to dishing out some serious aoe damage, but will our upfront squishiness be a problem, or will we be pulling significantly fast enough so that shuffle/Elusive Brew is still up and ready?

[Asmalya]

Yeah, those dots on Feng really hurts when my partner doesn't taunt. I like having a nice amount of haste, my rotation just feels more fluid with it.


My partner is a warrior too and he's so full of himself because of his high stam/health pool. But he gets beaten like a clothie. At least I can mitigate lots of damage and hit like a trunk. I too use agil flask with stam food with bonuses. Thanks again guys.

Ya i have the same feeling about my warrior cotank from what healers tell us. But then again i have a lot better gear then him too (yesterday was such a lucky day ohmygosh!).
But dps wise there is a difference like night an day between us two...its so much i think tank warrior need a dps buff

[SurrealNight]

But dps wise there is a difference like night an day between us two...its so much i think tank warrior need a dps buff

I've noticed that too. Been thinking about going DPS for Spirit Kings since technically I can use my BrM as is and be ok but I'm not sure I could beat my BrM damage on the fight as WW and the warrior doesn't really gain much DPS by tanking it. Huge difference in our damage which makes me happy for BrM but sad for warriors that it's not even a close comparison.

[Wushu]

Isn't it about time we got rid of that 15% expertise nonsese? I do believe that myth has been debunked.



It was utter nonsesne from the start, but the sheep fell in line, until there were enough sheep that people thought the opinion had merit.

Mod edit: please be polite and constructive if you wish to discuss something.

[Bodakane]

Isn't it about time we got rid of that 15% expertise nonsese? I do believe that myth has been debunked.



It was utter nonsesne from the start, but the sheep fell in line, until there were enough sheep that people thought the opinion had merit.

There's no need to be like that about it. Whether 15% expertise is right or wrong now, there was math at the time to back it up, and Madgod did a lot of work making a guide for all of us.

I don't know why the WoW community as whole as to come off douchey all the time.

[The Madgod]

There's no need to be like that about it. Whether 15% expertise is right or wrong now, there was math at the time to back it up, and Madgod did a lot of work making a guide for all of us.

I don't know why the WoW community as whole as to come off douchey all the time.

Keep it clean mate, I got this. Let's just focus on proper discussion of the spec. No need to concern yourself with the less-constructive users.

[Bodakane]

Keep it clean mate, I got this. Let's just focus on proper discussion of the spec. No need to concern yourself with the less-constructive users.

Sorry. i just chaps my butt when people are just rude for no good reason. Again, you did a lot of work you didn't have to, that requires respect not being attitudinal.

[Gallahadd]

Sorry. i just chaps my butt when people are just rude for no good reason. Again, you did a lot of work you didn't have to, that requires respect not being attitudinal.

True, and while I agree with you 100%, the best way to deal with people like that is to ignore and keep on with the current discussion . The best way to show your respect for Madgod and the others who have put alot of work into making this guide so epic is to keep the discussion going so the guide can stay as awesome as it is now.

gotta say, as the subject of Expertise was raised.... I tried forging it all away today, to get scads of haste and crit....

it lasted one dungeon it's AMAZING how fast you can get used to having almost all your attacks land.. I am NEVER dropping below hit cap, or expertise softcap again on my monk... I'm just.... NOT.

[The Madgod]

True, and while I agree with you 100%, the best way to deal with people like that is to ignore and keep on with the current discussion . The best way to show your respect for Madgod and the others who have put alot of work into making this guide so epic is to keep the discussion going so the guide can stay as awesome as it is now.

gotta say, as the subject of Expertise was raised.... I tried forging it all away today, to get scads of haste and crit....

it lasted one dungeon it's AMAZING how fast you can get used to having almost all your attacks land.. I am NEVER dropping below hit cap, or expertise softcap again on my monk... I'm just.... NOT.

Yeah just let me deal with the problems and focus on the discussion

And I'm sitting at a comfortable 6.58% hit and 6.94% expertise and just finished up Will 25 N. While misses were noticeable, I was able to get 6th in the US (I think) on damage, and took 6 million less damage than my prot pally buddy. The last pull he did pretty well, but he was taking double, sometimes a bit more, effective damage on the earlier pulls. Not sure if it was him, but something was happening right on my part.

I'm serious when I say it looked less like I was tanking and more like I was a DPS who was letting the adds pummel me a bit too much.

[draconisaerius]

But dps wise there is a difference like night an day between us two...its so much i think tank warrior need a dps buff

As a dk tank I've noticed this. Warriors and Pally's do crap all damage, even when I let them get tons of Vengance, and Monks n Bears can almost keep up to me. Can't wait to finish leveling this damn thing.

[Inuyaki]

AMR needs to lay off the hooch then...b/c that makes about as much sense as bat shit on a sandwich. There is absolutely no difference in the benefit per point going from 7.49% to 7.5% to 7.51%. And even having 7.5% is too much now according to the spreadsheet.

If you have perfect 7.5% hit this is not true, as going from 7.49% to 7.5% exp will give a benefit to Chi Wave and going from 7.5% to 7.51% will not.
Or is Chi Wave not handled as a spell?

[Bryce]

So I finally got the 2h off Spirit Kings tonight and another first weapon off gar'jal. So I'm debating dual wielding 2x 489 fists or using the 2h .

And I'm still at 7.5% expertise, I lost like 11% haste going hard cap so felt like it was way to much. Not to mention I already have to lay off attacking for a good 20 seconds for my co-tank to catch back up in threat because he's not hit/exp capped nor as geared because no plate drops will drop for us period.

[Deleted]

So I finally got the 2h off Spirit Kings tonight and another first weapon off gar'jal. So I'm debating dual wielding 2x 489 fists or using the 2h .

And I'm still at 7.5% expertise, I lost like 11% haste going hard cap so felt like it was way to much. Not to mention I already have to lay off attacking for a good 20 seconds for my co-tank to catch back up in threat because he's not hit/exp capped nor as geared because no plate drops will drop for us period.

It was also stated before but I tried it anyways during 100 gara'jal heroic attempts. What I noticed:

- The amount of elusive brew you get is nearly the same, averaged over the tries i can't see a difference
- The dmg with dual wielding was ~7-8 k dps higher averaged. (I got 2H from spirit kings with windsong and 1x gara'jal fist with dancing steel and 1 463offhand with windsong) btw. dancing steel has amazing uptimes >50%

So basically I think you can use both ... 2H and 1H. Since I am orc I use 1H because of the 1% exp I get... but besides that there is no big difference

[Zonex]

Hey everyone, I've been looking at the BrM spec, and after the Vengeance hotfix, there seems to be a LOT of controversy. People liked doing a lot of damage so out of personal merit some stuck to a somewhat high level of hit rating and expertise, and there are also others who have chosen to follow the Spreadsheet put out in EJ, but really have no idea of the concepts under which the formulas in that spreadsheet are thus derived from.

I plan to make a spreadsheet that's whole and complete, but I would like to do it with the help of the community, the number crucnhing and formulating I can all do myself, but what I want from all of you is to give me feedback on the ideas i put into practice and that i base by spreadsheet around. Also since there are many formulae to derive, i also need their natural formulas to begin with as well; I know this all sounds very abstract so I'm just going to explain as much as I can in the next section.

I base all my work off of how the the BrM class prioritizes their abilities.

It goes something like this; This deals with Single target tanking (This is not a priority list, it is just a list of things we need to watch)

1. Guard on Cooldown (3x TP stack)
2. Blackout Kick (Shuffle uptime)
3. Keg Smash on Cooldown
4. Expel Harm on Cooldown (unless full HP)
5. Purifying Brew (This is a variable whose priority shifts depending on the situation)
6. Jab
7. Elusive Brews (for the most part i will not onclude this in the blew calculation as it does not proc the GCD)

Now the usefulness, of all these abilities can be derived from equations in which the variables are our stats (haste, crit, hit, exp, etc.) and they can be made to equal each other due to maths. However, before all this, the second step we take is to isolate our given resources, mainly our energy regen, exactly how much is it worth and what factors effect the hard limit. (This is the only thing I've done actual concrete math on in my head, so it'll just give a taste of how I mean to proceed with the spreadsheet.

As we all know, our base energy per second is 10, and our stance applies a 1.1x modifier to make it 11E/s. Now I will do calculations based on a minute of combat.

In a minute we have 60 seconds worth of 11 regen, so 660 energy regen'd (this does not include 100 at the beginning)

In our list we made 6 notions, and we can split them up into chi generators and chi spenders.

Generator - Jab, Expel Harm, Keg Smash

Keg Smash is the most efficeint, it gives 2 chi per use, with an 8 second cooldown.

Spender - Guard(2), Blackout Kick (2), Purifying Brew(1), lastly - T2 ability, Chi Wave assumed(2)

In a 60 second time frame, we use 2 Guards, 10 Blackout Kicks(Shuffle lasts 6 seconds); These are what we must do every minute, so let's figure that out first.

2x Guard(2) = 4
10x BoK(2) = 20

As a base number, we must generate a minimum of 24 Chi per minute. However, since we have Power Strikes providing 3 Free (GCD costlss) Chi every minute, this number shoots down to 21.

Now let's look at our Generating abilities is a cooldown, since Keg Smash is the best generator, it should be looked at first. It has an 8 second cooldown which does not bode well with the GCD(factors of 1.5) so we must either have 6 GCD's inbetween (9s) which means the real KS CD becomes 9 seconds, or we have 5 GCD's (7.5s) with 0.5s downtime. For the sake of simplification I will go with 9 seconds, as you will see at the conclusion that we are GCD capped without any haste.

Now in a one minute window, we will be able to use KS 6.67 times (I can make this value a decimal, because i have made it correspond with the GCD). This provides me with on average, 13.33 Chi per minute.

The next ability is the Jab/Expel Harm, now in terms of generating Chi, they are equivalent (1 Chi = 40 energy & 1 GCD), this is a number we figure at out the end. This also means 1 energy = 0.025Chi) Since 21 -13.33 = 7.67, we will need 306.67 energy worth of Jabs, to reach a full 21 Chi generated. (This also means 7.67 GCD's used)

Now we have to see how many GCD's we use in total to do all this(40 in a minute). 6.67(KS) + 2(Guard) + 6(Tiger Palms) + 10(BoK) + 7.67(jabs)

This all equates to 32.33 GCD's used up just to use our essential abilities. That leaves the rest to Purifying Brews.

Lets see how much energy we've spent to fulfill our needs so far;

6.67(KS) + 7.67(Jabs) x40 = 573.33energy used.

This is quite significant, especially considering we only have 660 energy to work with. The deficit is, 660 - 573.33 = 86.66 energy left to use.

However before we look at how we use our left over 86.67 energy and our 7.67 GCD's, we have a matter to attend to regarding Hit and Expertise.

Given 0 Hit and Exp, the chance to miss/parry/dodge is 22.5% (7.5 from each category), this assumes you are bashing the boss from the front, since you are whilst tanking.

Now there are only 2 abilties that can be affected by this, and they are KS and Jab. and this is where Expel Harm comes in the equation and is a better Chi generator than Jab, it cannot be nullified (Sure it can be dodged, but it will still give you the chi), so with a 15s CD, we can use 4 of these a minute.

So out of the 7.67 "Jabs" 4 are EH.

So realistically, only 3.67 jabs and 6.67 KS are used. That means 11.33 of our GCD's are prone to being avoided assuming no Exp/Hit. So how do we incorporate this into the 40 GCD lockout; Well we know the chance to be avoided is 22.5% so we just do 0.225 x 11.33 = 2.55GCD's are wasted because of the hit/exp.

The energy deficit is ignored, since it is restored, to avoid energy capping is up the the played to not let their energy go above about 83.5 (11 x 1.5 = 16.5 --- 100-16.5 = 83.5); This will make it so you dont "waste" energy.

So right now we have 32.33 + 2.55 = 34.88GCD's used out of 40. Also, we have 86.67 Energy to use.

So now with Purifying Brew to take care of, we have to generate the 1 Chi needed, to use it. So realistically, it takes 2 GCD's for one PB (PB + Jab), Since we have the energy for 2.17 Jabs, and thus 2.17 PB's; This means, our left over energy buys us 4.33 GCD's, let's add that to the 34.88 we have now.

34.88 + 4.33 = 39.21 GCD's are used assuming we have 0 haste and 0 hit/exp.

CONCLUSION

The conclusion here is assuming we follow protocol on our abilities and use them in regards to their potential, in the midst of combat even statless, we have pretty much GCD capped, with about 1 second of breathing room per minute.

So why is it that when you play your BrM, it doesnt feel that way and you are using way more Tiger Palms than this, well assuming this calculation, this is what would happen when you are 1 minute into the fight and started the minute with 0 energy. It is a model, to to bring it closer to reality tweaks are needed, this i can explain later.

The main reason we use way more than 2 PB's per minute in a fight is that we aren't solo tanks, in a raid, there are often two tanks, where one Offtanks for a while. When BrM's offtank, they are able to forego a few abilities and build up Shuffle, and when it comes time for them to tank, the GCD's relating to BoK are exempt, as well as the fact that they normally start their tanking with 100 energy. This leads to much more PB usage, from 2 to about 6 or 7.

So the question becomes, which stats are more valuable in which situation, and it all comes down to numbers, how much of the fight are you offtanking(or more precisely, being left to build up shuffle), and maintanking.

As in the spreadsheet, it shows what your active mitigation is, however in what I've just described, there are mainly 2 states in which a BrM tanks, building up shuffle, and actually tanking. It is obvious that building shuffle before actually tanking yields way more damage mitigation, but these values can be derived into equations which can then be input values and can be weighted against each other.


The ratio in which these two states are used determines how you should prioritize stats, as the weights of each stat is heavily dependent on the states.

For a brief example, what hit and Exp actually do is that they lower the amount of GCD's wasted so more are there to take its place.
- Crit is simple, the only mitigation it helps with is EB stacking faster, which is dependent on Haste and Hit/Exp on its own.
- Haste is useful to fill in that deficit at the end 40 - 39.23 = 0.77GCD. So with no Exp/Hit, Haste is only good to fill in that 0.77GCD worth of time. However, its value linearly increases are Hit and Exp are increased as this frees up GCDs. Haste also affects crit, in the way that it affects EB stacks.

So as you can see, all the stats are related to each other, and they all affect each other (in this very isolated example); For haste to be useful, certain amounts of hit need to be gained. For crit to be useful, haste and exp.hit need to be increased.

Now this is all the interface of a jumble of math that I have yet to do and derive. But the end result is that when we do want to optimize our gear, it will be for the cause of making the stat weights of Haste Hit Crit and Expertise equal each other.



On the subject of dps and the weapons, well this is another story. The more dps we do, the less time the boss is alive to damage us, so it is also a variable factor, and as we know dps is affected of course by Hit Exp Crit Haste and ofc Agi. This all ties into the end total mitigation.

So I guess in the spreadsheet, it will be a very round about way to optimize gear as it will change slightly per encounter. The inputs in the spreadsheets nowadays are our current stats and weapons.

However in a spread sheet like this, there are added, equally important factors to consider; I will list all of them below

1. Agility
2. Haste
3. Crit
4. Hit
5. Exp
6. Parry
7. Dodge
8. Mastery
9. Weapon DPS
10. Weapon Type (dual or 2h)
11. Boss DPS
12. Boss Health
13. T6 Talent (Xuen increases DPS, RJW is a BoK aoe alternate)

The reason for needing to know the stats of the player is so that it can pool it all together to find how to allocate those stats efficiently, and the reason for needing to know the rest is to create values for how much DPS contributes to the tank's indirect Mitigation.

Obviously this is a pretty big project to undertake, so I want to see if it will be used by players, or just put aside for intuitive stat choosing.

Also, one of the main reasons i looked into doing all this, is that a lot of claims of Mastery not being worth it, I thought was wrong, so this way the math will show what the value of Mastery is anyway.

As i said, I will need help gathering the initial info so I can put equations into place, and to see how I can optimize those equations, therees no point in seeing a number and not knowing what it means, so for these abilities feel free to post how they will be affected by external factors or even internal ones (gameplay based). By this i mean, realistic variations, such as it would be better to assume 3 EH spent, as there will be a delay so it can be spent at the right time, and so on.






To start off, i need to know how some mechanics work internally, such as Vengeance and how it is calculated, and also the Enchant proc systems, and EB proc systems, Chi Wave systems, and so on.



One final note I'd like to leave you with, is the idea of using Chi Wave vs Purifying Brew. With how GCD capped we already are, Chi wave uses 3 GCDs (Jab + jab + CW) where as PB uses 4 (Jab + jab + PB + PB). When is using one of the other better, perhaps when the incoming dps of the boss via stagger is lower than the total amount healer with Chi Wave, regarding the amount of vengeance the boss' swings give. I can work all that in, but I would need to know if people would use it.

I just need things like those for people to add, so it can truly be a spreadsheet made for people and they know what each aspect of it relates to.