The Brewmaster Tanking Guide [5.4]

[thedr8993]

So does anyone else think that we should get chi regardless of a parry on keg smash? DKs used to have to stack hit/exp like we do now, and then blizz made the change to Death Strike. Just wondering if anyone else is of the opinion that I am, don't really care if it does damage, just gimme my damn chi!

[Asmalya]

Close call, but I'd say stick with Claws, Screaming Tiger has a SLIGHT ilvl edge.... but dat gem

And lets not forget the yummy stats on the claws.

---------- Post added 2013-01-08 at 08:38 AM ----------

So does anyone else think that we should get chi regardless of a parry on keg smash? DKs used to have to stack hit/exp like we do now, and then blizz made the change to Death Strike. Just wondering if anyone else is of the opinion that I am, don't really care if it does damage, just gimme my damn chi!

We get shuffle from parried BoK. Thats our "DS" fix. Chi Gen is part of your choice how you much comfortable you want your ressource gan compared to other stat win

[siccora]

yeah, could be very annoying in a panic situation when you need that 2 chi and the keg is being parried. i was running with 7,5% exo this raidlockout and didn't like it. well, yes, i got more crit but i rather have less crit then less chi. so back to 15%

[Kisho]

Nah, I think it's fine as it is. That change would devalue hit/exp further, making it utterly illogical to get any hit/exp whatsoever. It would be difficult to justify keeping the 7.5% caps, and I LIKE being capped. :P

I also like having a lot of gear choices, so a change like that would reduce our choice (effectively removing hit/exp from the equation entirely) for not much benefit.

Besides, parried Keg Smashes happen fairly rarely. And it's easy enough to follow up with a Jab or two if you've got high haste. I personally don't even worry about parries anymore, since with my high haste gear I know I'll have the energy to make up for it very quickly.

[Yorgl]

Nah, I think it's fine as it is. That change would devalue hit/exp further, making it utterly illogical to get any hit/exp whatsoever. It would be difficult to justify keeping the 7.5% caps, and I LIKE being capped. :P

I might be missing something, but it wouldn't change a thing as far as the aim is 7.5% / 7.5%. It would only devalue exp for people hardcapping wouldn't it ?

And i must admit, I never noticed that parried BoK still gave Shuffle ! That's pretty good.

yeah, could be very annoying in a panic situation when you need that 2 chi and the keg is being parried. i was running with 7,5% exo this raidlockout and didn't like it. well, yes, i got more crit but i rather have less crit then less chi. so back to 15%

Regarding this matter, effeciency vs reliability, Sunnier made a good post on his blog : http://sunniersartofwar.com/blog/201...xpertise-caps/
(I don't totally share his PoV but both choices are good I guess, it's a question of what do you prefer.)

[Kisho]

I might be missing something, but it wouldn't change a thing as far as the aim is 7.5% / 7.5%. It would only devalue exp for people hardcapping wouldn't it ?

I'm more assuming that if Keg Smash gave Chi on being parried, it would also give Chi on being dodged/missed. It wouldn't then be a stretch to assume, if this sort of change would be implemented, that it would also apply to Jab/Expel Harm. Consistency and all that. If that were the case, then yeah, hit/exp would be utterly devalued.

If it was strictly only Keg Smashes being parried, then yeah, it'd only affect those going for exp hard cap. But that seems like a bit of an arbitrary distinction, so hey. Also it's currently an interesting choice to go for: do you care about never being parried, or do you not mind the occasional parry? It's a meaningful choice either way currently, with no strictly right or wrong answer.

Allowing Keg Smash to still generate Chi on a parry removes that meaningful choice, which is bad game design.

[Yorgl]

If it was strictly only Keg Smashes being parried, then yeah, it'd only affect those going for exp hard cap. But that seems like a bit of an arbitrary distinction, so hey. Also it's currently an interesting choice to go for: do you care about never being parried, or do you not mind the occasional parry? It's a meaningful choice either way currently, with no strictly right or wrong answer.

Allowing Keg Smash to still generate Chi on a parry removes that meaningful choice, which is bad game design.

Actually that wouldn't be so random as DS works the same way. It's kind of a middle ground for developpers to have players looking for caps (which is good imo) but without having to hardcap them (which is painful, especially in early tier).

For the part about the choice and how it gives a little more depth (to our class who, luckily, is already full of choices like that), I guess you're right. That's usually good design when you have to chose between two things without having one much better and without creating a frustration whichever you chose.

[Wreckage827]

yeah, could be very annoying in a panic situation when you need that 2 chi and the keg is being parried. i was running with 7,5% exo this raidlockout and didn't like it. well, yes, i got more crit but i rather have less crit then less chi. so back to 15%

If you are that worried about chi generation you should be running power strikes and not ascension.

[TheWindWalker]

So, I just won (LFR) Terror in the Mists. Already have lfr bottle and Xuen. Is there ever a situation where I'd want to equip this thing?

[Promdates]

LFR Version? No. It's not in the same group as those two.

[kaiadam]

LFR Version? No. It's not in the same group as those two.

Why? It's better dps than bottle.

[SurrealNight]

I'd rather use LFR Terror than LFR Bottle.

[Asmalya]

yeah, could be very annoying in a panic situation when you need that 2 chi and the keg is being parried. i was running with 7,5% exo this raidlockout and didn't like it. well, yes, i got more crit but i rather have less crit then less chi. so back to 15%

Thing with 15% expertise is, on tank swap fights half the time its just wasted rating that doesnt help anything while haste and crit still continue to be useful.
And there will always be enough fights were you can be behind the boss as tank.

[TheWindWalker]

Why? It's better dps than bottle.

How exactly? The LFR Bottle (0/2) has an average of ~1400 agility per minute whereas the Terror has 1021. The crit is good but it's a full 110s cooldown between those ~10% crit chance increases which, as a Brewmaster, would just as likely go off while off-tanking as when holding threat. The bottle provides a bit of stagger and a nice chunk of haste.

[Asmalya]

How exactly? The LFR Bottle (0/2) has an average of ~1400 agility per minute whereas the Terror has 1021. The crit is good but it's a full 110s cooldown between those ~10% crit chance increases which, as a Brewmaster, would just as likely go off while off-tanking as when holding threat. The bottle provides a bit of stagger and a nice chunk of haste.

Speaking from a none pure own survival point crit is still dps and it still helps procc guard more for your raid while offtanking.

[Zonex]

H Bottle > H Terror > Bottle > Xuen (2/2) > Terror > Xuen > LFR Bottle > LFR Terror

Someone ironed out the relative gains/losses somewhere in this thread a while back.

[Deleted]

Thing with 15% expertise is, on tank swap fights half the time its just wasted rating that doesnt help anything while haste and crit still continue to be useful.
And there will always be enough fights were you can be behind the boss as tank.

On the other hand, on most tank swap fights you end up holding back or clicking off vengeance making haste / crit much less useful also.
a 7,5% chance on parry is causing a lot of lost Chi and DPS, not to mention awkward scenarios like a parried keg smash on the pull or tank swap.

I don't know if there is some math wizard that can compare a 7,5% parry chance to haste rating, but it seems impossible to compare.

cheers,
Xarmon.

[Kisho]

a 7,5% chance on parry is causing a lot of lost Chi and DPS, not to mention awkward scenarios like a parried keg smash on the pull or tank swap.

I actually had this happen on Shek'zeer last night! My Keg Smash got parried and I immediately panicked, thinking 'oh god I'm going to lose aggro agh help what do I dooooo'.

...I didn't lose aggro. It went fine: I had a Hunter MDing to me at the pull which of course helped, but otherwise I was still able to generate enough threat to keep Shek'zeer on me even with a parried Keg Smash at the start.

So I think perhaps the 'parried keg smash at the pull' concern is a bit exaggerated? Certainly it hurts, but you should still be able to keep enough threat. And at any rate, that's what taunt is for too.

[Chuupag]

H Bottle > H Terror > Bottle > Xuen (2/2) > Terror > Xuen > LFR Bottle > LFR Terror

Someone ironed out the relative gains/losses somewhere in this thread a while back.

This isn't accurate, don't know why you are ranking Bottle so highly. The discussion you're referencing started about here Post 1530 Goes on for a page or two. In terms of stat weights Terror is better than Bottle. Xuen 2/2 is better than regular Bottle and given the rest of that discussion probably better than H Bottle as well.

One thing to note is that in that discussion it was brought up the fact that simple number crunching isn't always going to be useful for BrM b/c of the mechanics of the class. In short...static buffs should be given more importance than procs.

---------- Post added 2013-01-09 at 08:26 AM ----------

On the other hand, on most tank swap fights you end up holding back or clicking off vengeance making haste / crit much less useful also.
a 7,5% chance on parry is causing a lot of lost Chi and DPS, not to mention awkward scenarios like a parried keg smash on the pull or tank swap.

I don't know if there is some math wizard that can compare a 7,5% parry chance to haste rating, but it seems impossible to compare.

cheers,
Xarmon.

This was compared long, long ago. With over 13 pages of discussion. [BM] Hit and Exp: why you don't have to cap them Important math posts are #1 and #45.

TLDR: Haste gives more chi than hit/exp even accounting for misses/dodges/parries. Also the chances to have consecutive misses with chi generating abilities is so small as to be insignificant regardless of hit/exp values.

[gynshon]

I actually had this happen on Shek'zeer last night! My Keg Smash got parried and I immediately panicked, thinking 'oh god I'm going to lose aggro agh help what do I dooooo'.

...I didn't lose aggro. It went fine: I had a Hunter MDing to me at the pull which of course helped, but otherwise I was still able to generate enough threat to keep Shek'zeer on me even with a parried Keg Smash at the start.

So I think perhaps the 'parried keg smash at the pull' concern is a bit exaggerated? Certainly it hurts, but you should still be able to keep enough threat. And at any rate, that's what taunt is for too.

I think at this point, discussing it even further isn't helping because people will do what they want to do regardless. Empress is a perfect example of tank swap fights where in P1 there are periods you are behind the boss and not being parried. Last night was a 12 min kill for us as we gearing up alts, I had a whopping 4 Keg Smash parries over 12 mins. 57 hits, 34 crits, 4 parries at 7.5% expertise over 12 mins. 99.6% shuffle uptime, 24 PB casts, never hit Heavy stagger once. You don't need the expertise to help with mitigation, chi generation. All the logs point to the same thing.

If you want to do 15% expertise, go for it. You are wasting 7.5% that could be reforged into other secondary stats that I would argue or more beneficial than what you gain from the expertise.

Regarding the pull? 1 KS parry at beginning won't kill you ever. It might delay getting Shuffle up, but at the beginning of the fight it isn't critical.