1. #1781
    Take a closer look at post 1541

    That is the math being ironed out. The Ranking listed is for reforging Mastery -> haste, but from the sims Promdate did, his crit weight was higher, so his calculations for crit gave terror a better ranking. So yeah... Xuen (2/2) is a worse upgrade than Bottle, but better than Terror.

    One thing to note, is that H Bottle scales horribly with Item Upgrades, so if you are talking strictly 2/2 the Terror edges out Bottle in the Heroic versions..


    Now in the real world, Xuen is going to get you far, its reliable and static, but so is bottle, it has a insane uptime, 20s dura, 45s CD. Terror is a lot of RNG for it to proc when you rly need it but you can take that for what it's worth. It depends on what you feel is better, but if you are going to MT, the difference between Xuen and Terror dwindles, since you'll build stacks of EB when you need it, if you dump EB enough, you shouldn't cap it. Terror is fine.

    If you're new to tanking, sure, go for Xuen, its static, its an easy fire and forget, that'll give you help when you likely need it more. Terror takes getting used to, but it is mathematically better. As with the BrM class, you just need to take it with a pinch of salt, and choose what you like and play better with.

    PS: If you are calculating without Mastery being reforged, then yes by all means, Xuen is better, but going mastery is a deliberate choice the BrM knows lowers survivability/dps for EH (well thats a sort of survivability as well i guess).
    Last edited by Zonex; 2013-01-09 at 05:56 PM.

  2. #1782
    Dreadlord Chuupag's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    976
    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    Take a closer look at post 1541

    That is the math being ironed out. The Ranking listed is for reforging Mastery -> haste, but from the sims Promdate did, his crit weight was higher, so his calculations for crit gave terror a better ranking. So yeah... Xuen (2/2) is a worse upgrade than Bottle, but better than Terror.

    One thing to note, is that H Bottle scales horribly with Item Upgrades, so if you are talking strictly 2/2 the Terror edges out Bottle in the Heroic versions..


    Now in the real world, Xuen is going to get you far, its reliable and static, but so is bottle, it has a insane uptime, 20s dura, 45s CD. Terror is a lot of RNG for it to proc when you rly need it but you can take that for what it's worth. It depends on what you feel is better, but if you are going to MT, the difference between Xuen and Terror dwindles, since you'll build stacks of EB when you need it, if you dump EB enough, you shouldn't cap it. Terror is fine.

    If you're new to tanking, sure, go for Xuen, its static, its an easy fire and forget, that'll give you help when you likely need it more. Terror takes getting used to, but it is mathematically better. As with the BrM class, you just need to take it with a pinch of salt, and choose what you like and play better with.

    PS: If you are calculating without Mastery being reforged, then yes by all means, Xuen is better, but going mastery is a deliberate choice the BrM knows lowers survivability/dps for EH (well thats a sort of survivability as well i guess).
    Promdate's math wasn't very good, which if you read through the entire discussion you would have seen me pointing that out. My Post later in the discussion provided much clearer and more accurate approximations. The vast majority of Bottle's value is in the proc, and even so 0/2 Xuen is just barely behind normal Bottle in straight weights, and is ahead if you do not reforge. Procs, due to their nature, aren't as effective for BrM as they are for a dps class, so we need to take that into consideration. Since so much of Bottle power is in the proc...which we can't really get full use out of, Xuen 2/2 comes out ahead of even H Bottle.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2013-01-09 at 06:22 PM.

  3. #1783
    Mechagnome arisoh's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Congregation of Our Knights Most Heavenly
    Posts
    679
    I got a Stuff of Nightmares from a bonus roll last night (it felt far more epic because it's the first time I got something other than gold from a coin roll in ages) whose mastery I reforged to haste. I am currently using 2 agi trinkets (Jade Bandit and Hawkmaster from Shado pan). Should I replace one of my agi trinkets for this, or am I better off with my double agi for most fights?

    I usually use double agi for physical damage/dps check bosses, agi + niuzao for magic damage fights.

    Any advice/corrections appreciated.

    PS. Double 489 Garajal fist or 496 Gao Rei? I havent used a staff since the 3rd week of being 90. I'm probably about a month or so from getting a SHekzeer kill because of attendance issues, so these weapons are probably gonna last me a long time.
    Last edited by arisoh; 2013-01-09 at 06:22 PM.

  4. #1784
    Dreadlord Chuupag's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    976
    Quote Originally Posted by arisoh View Post
    I got a Stuff of Nightmares from a bonus roll last night (it felt far more epic because it's the first time I got something other than gold from a coin roll in ages) whose mastery I reforged to haste. I am currently using 2 agi trinkets (Jade Bandit and Hawkmaster from Shado pan). Should I replace one of my agi trinkets for this, or am I better off with my double agi for most fights?

    I usually use double agi for physical damage/dps check bosses, agi + niuzao for magic damage fights.

    Any advice/corrections appreciated.

    PS. Double 489 Garajal fist or 496 Gao Rei? I havent used a staff since the 3rd week of being 90. I'm probably about a month or so from getting a SHekzeer kill because of attendance issues, so these weapons are probably gonna last me a long time.
    Double agil is the way to go for the average fight. Stuff of Nightmares could be a nice fallback trinket for certain fights...maybe. Haste on-use effects are pretty meh, but the static agility is what shines on those two.

    If Gao has a gem in it that's a no brainer. If it doesn't and you have dual Dancing Steel on the fists I'd stick with those, otherwise the staff.

  5. #1785
    Yup i read your post, it takes into account a 5 second delay for a trinket to proc, which is quite high, but it serves as an upper limit. You increased Bottles from proc every 45 seconds to 50, it skews the numbers a bit, i notice bm Trinkets proccing about 1 or 2 seconds after coming off CD, but this was talked about way back in those posts. However, maybe you did it already, but what was the ICD and adjusted proc time you were using for Xuen, you didn't list it. Did you do the math keeping it at 55 seconds, or did you add 5 seconds to the ICD like you did the other 2 trinkets? (so 60s)?

    Also yea, bottle scales horribly with upgrades, but purely mathematically speaking, bottle edges xuen (2/2) out, but the difference is small enough to warrant QoL judgment. (Though may not as small as you simmed it out to be?)

  6. #1786
    Dreadlord Chuupag's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    976
    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    Yup i read your post, it takes into account a 5 second delay for a trinket to proc, which is quite high, but it serves as an upper limit. You increased Bottles from proc every 45 seconds to 50, it skews the numbers a bit, i notice bm Trinkets proccing about 1 or 2 seconds after coming off CD, but this was talked about way back in those posts. However, maybe you did it already, but what was the ICD and adjusted proc time you were using for Xuen, you didn't list it. Did you do the math keeping it at 55 seconds, or did you add 5 seconds to the ICD like you did the other 2 trinkets? (so 60s)?

    Also yea, bottle scales horribly with upgrades, but purely mathematically speaking, bottle edges xuen (2/2) out, but the difference is small enough to warrant QoL judgment. (Though may not as small as you simmed it out to be?)
    The average time between procs was discussed on that very post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    Terror has a 105 second ICD and has a proc chance of 15%, meaning it has a 50% chance to have proc'd by the 5th attack.
    Bottle has a 45 second ICD and has a proc chance of 15%, meaning is has a 50% chance to have proc'd by the 5th attack.
    Xuen has a 55 second ICD and has a proc chance of 20% on crit, meaning is has a 50% chance to have proc'd by the 4th crit
    The average time between procs was calculated using these numbers.

    Bottle does not edge out Xuen, unless you are using some very screwed up stat weights. Using 1.3 for agility, .7 for haste/crit, and .4 for mastery the weighted averages for normal Terror, normal Bottle, and Xuen 0/2 are
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    Terror's total is 2376.71. Bottle's total is 2114.32(2243.52 reforged). Xuen's value is 2128.2.
    Please show some math if you want to debate this. Just stating Bottle is better doesn't really do much when there has already been math showing that is not the case.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2013-01-09 at 06:59 PM.

  7. #1787
    Look at your own quotes closely.

    2243.5 is the reforged vakue, last time i checked 2243.52 > 2182.

    I believe ive already mentioned that not reforging the mastery is a personal crutch, in terms of survivability and dps.

    Im using your stat weights, and your numbers if you want. Bottle isbetter than Xuen mathematically. if youre gonna be stubborn and not reforge the mastery then by all means ccreate a crutch for yourself. With reforges Bottle is better, again take a look at your own quote.

  8. #1788
    Dreadlord Chuupag's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    976
    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    but purely mathematically speaking, bottle edges xuen (2/2) out
    If Xuen 0/2 is barely beaten by Bottle after reforging, then Xuen 2/2 would be ahead. You are wrong.

    I have also already said that procs aren't very good for BrM, and the majority of Bottle's value comes from a proc, which makes it worth less to us, therefor making your whole point invalid.

  9. #1789
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Dallas
    Posts
    3,508
    I'd rather have Xuen + Terror (assuming H trinkets aren't available) over Bottle. As mentioned the fact that the agil portion of the bottle is a proc really devalues it when you factor in most tanks being a tank swap.

    Think I looked at a night of 7-9 kills and my uptime averaged out to 40% (max is 44% I believe) so when you factor in 50% of the time the proc goes off your not tanking it isn't that useful. Plug in a 20% uptime to your stat weights and it's not terribly impressive.

    The only real proc that has much value for BrM from a survivability point is Crit/Mastery or a crazy high agil uptime since for most it's easy cap what they want for haste.
    [/URL]
    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  10. #1790
    I was going to check out the valor boots again and something occured to me: Why is Arrowflight Medallion never brought up for Brewmasters? Without upgrades it's already static +1152 agility and +6.4% crit for 15 seconds every minute. Unless I'm mistaken that blows LFR and Normal Terror out of the water.
    Last edited by TheWindWalker; 2013-01-10 at 12:33 AM.
    Soothing Mist:"Healing them for a minor amount every 0.5 sec, until you take any other action."
    Jade Serpent Statue: "The statue will also begin casting Soothing Mist on your target. healing for 50% as much as yours. "
    [What's half of minor?]
    "Statue casts Soothing Mist at a nearby ally for toddler healing."

  11. #1791
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    I was going to check out the valor boots again and something occured to me: Why is Arrowflight Medallion never brought up for Brewmasters? Without upgrades it's already static +1152 agility and +6.4% crit for 15 seconds every minute. Unless I'm mistaken that blows LFR and Normal Terror out of the water.
    I tend not to look at items that require weeks of doing dailies to get as this whole expansion pissed me off with regards to valor being tied to rep grinds. However it is a solid trinket as it has the on use effect to help with the stacking of elusive brew prior to predictable incoming damage.

    Sig made by Shyama. Click sig for current Warlock armory.

  12. #1792
    So, since you guys are talking about trinkets (again). I'm still going to stand strong and point out that Chuupag is wrong, but also right. After doing more math, and running more sims/numbers... mastery doesn't have much (and I do mean much) of a stat weight for us. Using my current gear I get a value of 19 for mastery, while the next closest value is AP at 73. This is also with an adjusted ICD, and reforged to Haste. This isn't exactly 45 seconds for Bottle and 105 for terror, it is slightly more.

    Using the numbers I got from simming my character, it shows the following:

    Code:
    H: Terror in the Mists 2/2
    H: Terror in the Mists 1/2
    H: Terror in the Mists 0/2
    H: Bottle of Infinite Stars 2/2
    Terror in the Mists 2/2
    H: Bottle of Infinite Stars 1/2
    Terror in the Mists 1/2
    Relic of Xuen 2/2
    H: Bottle of Infinite Stars 0/2
    Terror in the Mists 0/2
    Relic of Xuen 1/2
    Relic of Xuen 0/2
    Bottle of Infinite Stars 2/2
    LFR: Terror in the Mists 2/2
    Bottle of Infinite Stars 1/2
    LFR: Terror in the Mists 1/2
    Bottle of Infinite Stars 0/2
    LFR: Terror in the Mists 0/2
    LFR: Bottle of Infinite Stars 2/2
    LFR: Bottle of Infinite Stars 1/2
    LFR: Bottle of Infinite Stars 0/2

  13. #1793
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Dallas
    Posts
    3,508
    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    So, since you guys are talking about trinkets (again). I'm still going to stand strong and point out that Chuupag is wrong
    Not where I can check everyones posts but hasn't the general consensus for most of us BrM's been H Terror 2/2 > H Bottle 2/2 > Xuen 2/2?

    Between N Terror/Bottle you mostly take what you can get and it's rare you really get your choice of both (I'm still using gawd damn LFR Bottle). As said Arrowflight is good but having to do dailys and dump a bunch of VP for an item that is trumped by a lot of (in theory) easily obtained better choices doesn't appeal to many of us.
    [/URL]
    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  14. #1794
    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    As said Arrowflight is good but having to do dailys and dump a bunch of VP for an item that is trumped by a lot of (in theory) easily obtained better choices doesn't appeal to many of us.
    The issue is I'm one of those people who finished my dailies while my guild hasn't even finished (N) Heart of Fear. It's legitimately an issue of "I won't be tanking Normal Terrace anytime soon and I can't decide if it's worth the valor."
    Soothing Mist:"Healing them for a minor amount every 0.5 sec, until you take any other action."
    Jade Serpent Statue: "The statue will also begin casting Soothing Mist on your target. healing for 50% as much as yours. "
    [What's half of minor?]
    "Statue casts Soothing Mist at a nearby ally for toddler healing."

  15. #1795
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Dallas
    Posts
    3,508
    Depends what you are replacing. If you don't have a lot of solid attractive up-gradeable items to spend the VP on and neither LFR trinkets it might be a good choice. Also, if you have a lot of 476/483 pieces you might be better off spending for the 496 pieces which upgrade Agil/Stam/Armor + 2x ratings all at once and can be worthy of future valor upgrades.

    I'm revered and decided to pick up a replacement to my 483 boots.

    Also, I'm lazy and hate having another button to put on my hotbars and macro'ing it into something defeats the point =P
    [/URL]
    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  16. #1796
    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    Stuff
    More or less yeah. H: Terror+Bottle are the best options right now, if you have the choice of the 3 normal ones though, there is a "better" one... it's just not a huge gap between then. small numbers.

  17. #1797
    Quote Originally Posted by gynshon View Post
    I think at this point, discussing it even further isn't helping because people will do what they want to do regardless. Empress is a perfect example of tank swap fights where in P1 there are periods you are behind the boss and not being parried. Last night was a 12 min kill for us as we gearing up alts, I had a whopping 4 Keg Smash parries over 12 mins. 57 hits, 34 crits, 4 parries at 7.5% expertise over 12 mins. 99.6% shuffle uptime, 24 PB casts, never hit Heavy stagger once. You don't need the expertise to help with mitigation, chi generation. All the logs point to the same thing.

    If you want to do 15% expertise, go for it. You are wasting 7.5% that could be reforged into other secondary stats that I would argue or more beneficial than what you gain from the expertise.

    Regarding the pull? 1 KS parry at beginning won't kill you ever. It might delay getting Shuffle up, but at the beginning of the fight it isn't critical.
    The next obvious question is, if that extra 7.5% parry is so insignificant, why not just give us the chi generation for it then? I feel like it'll just make everything smoother and allow Brewmasters to stop putting points into stats that many deem unnecessary after a certain point. I don't really have a side one way or another, I just thought it would be an interesting topic of discussion

    PS: it came up cuz my DK co-tank always gives me a hard time for having 7.5% hit and 8% expertise. I just lol when I pull threat on everything and he sits there tanking nothing

  18. #1798
    Quote Originally Posted by thedr8993 View Post
    PS: it came up cuz my DK co-tank always gives me a hard time for having 7.5% hit and 8% expertise. I just lol when I pull threat on everything and he sits there tanking nothing
    DKs are actually the odd tank class out on that one, it seems. At least, my Paladin and Warrior co-tanks are all about hard capping expertise and capping hit. No idea about Guardian Druids though.

    And see my previous answer on that: allowing it to give Chi on a parry would remove a meaningful choice from us. Currently there are arguments for and against hard capping expertise: make this change, and nobody would hard cap it. Removing meaningful choice = bad game design.

  19. #1799
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisho View Post
    DKs are actually the odd tank class out on that one, it seems. At least, my Paladin and Warrior co-tanks are all about hard capping expertise and capping hit. No idea about Guardian Druids though.

    And see my previous answer on that: allowing it to give Chi on a parry would remove a meaningful choice from us. Currently there are arguments for and against hard capping expertise: make this change, and nobody would hard cap it. Removing meaningful choice = bad game design.
    tbh having a tank think about 15% expertise to begin with is stupid in my book.

    Its ok to have them go 7.5% or suffer ressource generation (its more of a choice still) but 15% expertise is just. Those last 7.5% almost always lose to other stats you have to worry as tank so what.

    And tbf those 7.5% parry should just be dropped completly. It shouldnt matter for tanks and it doesnt matter for melees most the time.
    It only punishes melees on fights were you are forced to be infront of the boss for some time (because blizzard doesnt care to remove parry on those bosses if you dont spend most the time infront of it.)

    Heck melee is already stressfull enough on most fights getting rid of the "MUST BE BEHIND BOSS" would help abit.
    I honestly dont know why they kept expertise at 15% for mop.
    Last edited by Asmalya; 2013-01-10 at 11:33 AM.

  20. #1800
    There's a line, though. How much do you simplify things before the game just becomes boring and predictable, with everyone wearing the same gear, doing the same stuff, all the time?

    An exaggeration, but it's something Blizz need to consider when designing the game. Furthermore, random is 'fun': I mean sure, getting parried is annoying, but it creates tension. It creates 'ohshit' moments. It makes you think and work that little bit harder to get the kill. Knowing that you overcame the odds and still triumphed makes the kill that much sweeter, rather than just 'going through the motions' and doing the same thing over and over, knowing what the exact outcome will be.

    Yeah, it's one of those 'feeling' things. How the game feels, is it fun, is it exciting, etc. It's not about convenience or practicality, it's about keeping the game interesting.

    And as I said before, it's also about meaningful choice. 2550 rating (from 7.5% to 15%) isn't too steep of a demand, but it's enough that it makes you think. It makes you consider whether it's actually worth hard capping or not. Seems like the line has been drawn rather successfully, since you'll hear arguments for and against hard capping on these forums many times. There may be a general consensus on what is better, but there's still people who prefer to do something different.

    Speaking strictly practically, then no, the extra parry requirement doesn't make sense. But from a 'feeling' viewpoint? Makes the game that little bit more interesting.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •