1. #1041
    Quote Originally Posted by JJaguar View Post
    I think elemental mastery should provide 30% mastery, and ancestral swiftness should give 5% passive mastery! Then maybe enhancement would pick something other than EoE
    This had been something I had been thinking about as well.
    I personally would rather have a mastery boost as resto than a haste boost, but that is just my preference, I'm sure others would prefer the haste.
    But changing it to mastery would make the talents useful for enh if they don't make haste more useful for them in MOP.

  2. #1042
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Protoman View Post
    I don't want it to be better then any other secondary stat, I am find with it being our worst secondary stat and the one we always reforge. What I do want is to benefit from haste like other classes, especially during something like Blust or EM, and to notice it's effect to let us do more active damage (via MW5), instead of just boring buff to passive damage.
    That's how Haste benefits almost everyone, though. For all casters, it mostly means faster ticking DoTs (passive damage), and more filler (which is the caster equivalent of autoattacks). Even some melee, like rogues, primarily get passive benefits from Haste.

    Haste provides a passive boost because stats are basically passive in nature.

    I DO think Enhancement needs a little love for Haste on Live, but things like Unleashed Fury: Windfury are exactly that. I know Maelstrom Weapon is a PPM effect, but I can't remember if Haste boosts the PPM effect; if it doesn't, that's a change that could improve things, if it does, then that's an active damage boost right there.


    I also feel lightning bolts should hit hard enough that they do more damage than a Stormstrike; releasing an MWx5 should be high on the priority list (but not so high you'd ever feel a desire to stand and hard-cast). Perhaps boosting the damage per charge of Maelstrom Weapon, as well as reducing the casting time, might do the trick.


  3. #1043
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    Quote Originally Posted by Protoman View Post
    I would love to use MW5 right away, but unfortunetly for max DPS you have to prioritize SS and LL, since all MW5 gives is LB damage which does not compete with those 2, and even with the bonus crit in MoP prob still won't beat out either of them.
    Well let me rephrase that a bit. I Feel like I use it as it hits 5 stacks. It always seems like my LL/SS are on cd so I realize when I press LB.


    Yea, static cd's is the big issue for Haste with Enhance. Haste is supposed to "let you do more" of your active abilities, and for most other classes they either get faster casts/gcds.....or more resource generation to use their abilities more often. For us, we have set cd's so our rate of attacks does not increase at all, and more mana doesn't lead to more attacks since it only limits healing. All we get from haste is more passive damage, which is much less potent then our active damage abilities. MW5 is the one exception, this allows us to convert passive damage procs into active damage w/ LB. During Blust or EM when we have a big chunk of haste, we do more melee attacks which make MW5 stack faster meaning we can use LB more often. But because it's a low priority and we don't use asap, any potential extra procs are wasted, and so is any benefit we would gain from bonus haste.
    I almost feel like the spec would have to be reworked for haste to really impact Enh to see it.


    Np, I didn't get a rude feeling from your posts, just a different opinion lol.
    Well that's good. When I reread that I did not have my usual caffeine source with me so that is probably why it looked a little rude.

    And yea, giving MW5 a bonus effect would make it a higher priority, that's what I was trying to suggest with the "Feedback" mechanism. Your suggestion is good too, but would prob be better to give the bonus only at 5 stacks and not before, to encourage using MW5 only when full and not hard cast anything. The only real problem I see with that though is a 50% chance to proc a free SS might be too powerful, that's probably 2 extra SS's in 30sec assuming we get about 4 MW5 procs in 30 sec. That may be too much of a buff and so something else would have to get nerfed, but I wouldn't mind that. For example.....nerf the damage of LB, but since MW5 gives us more SS it would even out and MW5 would still be top priority cause of the bonus effect, even if LB itself is lower damage.

    Another alternative using the same idea, but taking some RNG out of it would be something like this: ""Each full MW5 consumed will give you a stack of "Storm Charge". Once you get 3 of these, your next LL (or SS) used will get it's cd reset. "" So every 3 MW5's used, your next LL can be used twice in a row for some nice burst.
    I think with the 10% each stack of MW people wouldn't hard cast LB considering a full stack gives them a better chance then 2 stacks. While I do agree a little 50% is a little high that number could be adjusted, 35% doesn't seem like it is to powerful so 7% each stack would probably be a better suggestion.

    The only problem with reseting LL cd is that it relies on the Searing Totem to become a Nuke, without the Searing Stacks it is almost lackluster. I would suggesting to Twink your Storm Charge a little. Storm Charge: you gain 1 stack of storm charge every time Maelstrom Weapon hits 5 Stacks and is used. After getting 3 stacks of Storm Charge your next Stormstrikes damage is doubled and you consume the Storm Charge stacks.

    My suggestion with "Feedback" was that each full MW5 consumed will reduce the cd of Feral Spirits and Ascendance by 2 sec. This would not have any short term benefits, but for longer fights like raid bosses that last 5+min, you might be able to use your FS and Ascendance more often then like twice per fight. This version you would prob not have to nerf anything......but I kinda like the whole "cd reset" idea that you mentioned, would enforce the idea that haste lets you use your abilities more often.....even during shorter periods like 30sec of BL.
    I like the idea of lowering the CD of Feral Spirit / Ascendance "Super Shaman" but I do think it would have to be one not both having its cd lowered. Personally I would go for Feral Spirit. Also don't forget about if Feral Spirit gets t13 2-piece think of the CD resets during that BL phase... SO MUCH BURST!!!!

  4. #1044
    I like Endus idea about increase the damage of LB per MW stack, if the damage was decent, along with our mastery and the debuff from SS, it could be worth using, even if by a chance they implement this change, I still think shooting LB's as enha is very boring, and I dont want to rely on that in burst situations having to stop auto attack which seems pretty important in MOP for enha.

    But the main issue for me now, is that when I want to kill someone as enha :
    Dps cooldowns (trinket basically)
    1-stormstrike
    2-lava lash at 5 stacks
    3-shock(depending on the situation)
    4-????

    And thats it, at step 4 doing nothing besides auto-attacking in burst mode is really annoying, especially if the target is low hp and you cant do anything about it, even if I have a MW proc, LB's damage is pretty low, and most cases the MW will be used for heal or hex, and so far I still cant see how MOP will change that.

  5. #1045
    The Patient Thalais's Avatar
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    My ideas for Haste and Enhancement Shamans:

    Idea 1:
    Every 2% haste increases the proc chance of Wind Fury by 1%.

    Idea 2:
    Every 1% haste increases the proc of Maelstrom by 2%.

    Idea 3:
    Similar to how DoTs work, at tiers of Haste, increases the speed our Enhancements DoT Bonus.
    {This one might already be there since spells are still affected by haste, but not sure if Enhancement is included}

    Idea 4:
    Haste reduces the CD of our SS or LL by .5 seconds for every 5% melee haste.
    (is only affected by haste on gear, not from spells or abilities such as passive 10% melee haste that we get)

  6. #1046
    New passive for Enhancement:

    Earthen Fury - Your melee auto-attacks have an X% chance to instantly reset the cooldown of your Earth Shock ability. After consuming the Earthen Fury effect, the cooldown of Earth Shock is reduced by 50%.

    That adds more value to haste while not mucking up the rotation too much.

  7. #1047
    So many great Ideas about how to improve Haste and other stuff for Enha, Just wish Blizz would take it into consideration, or use it for inspiration.

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-10 at 07:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rahdik View Post
    New passive for Enhancement:

    Earthen Fury - Your melee auto-attacks have an X% chance to instantly reset the cooldown of your Earth Shock ability. After consuming the Earthen Fury effect, the cooldown of Earth Shock is reduced by 50%.

    That adds more value to haste while not mucking up the rotation too much.
    But ES is at the bottom of the Priority, try a different ability. :P

  8. #1048
    The Patient Thalais's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manu9 View Post
    So many great Ideas about how to improve Haste and other stuff for Enha, Just wish Blizz would take it into consideration, or use it for inspiration.

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-10 at 07:29 PM ----------



    But ES is at the bottom of the Priority, try a different ability. :P
    What I think s/he is trying to move towards is the idea of increasing something we use more often.
    Yeah ES is bottom of our rotation, but that is because it has a 6/5 sec cd on live.
    ES will be great to add more of in our rotation.
    1. It is instant
    2. It is nature so mastery affects it
    3. It deals decent damage and is better than Auto Attacking during down time, since our auto attacks hit like crap but will be buffed to no other when we use Ascendance.

  9. #1049
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalais View Post
    What I think s/he is trying to move towards is the idea of increasing something we use more often.
    Yeah ES is bottom of our rotation, but that is because it has a 6/5 sec cd on live.
    ES will be great to add more of in our rotation.
    1. It is instant
    2. It is nature so mastery affects it
    3. It deals decent damage and is better than Auto Attacking during down time, since our auto attacks hit like crap but will be buffed to no other when we use Ascendance.
    The damage is barely decent tbh, It deals low damage. Sure it's better than an auto attack, but what isn't. It's just not attractive, at least not to me.

    Here's my edit of said ability;

    Earthen Fury - Your melee auto-attacks have an X% chance to instantly reset the cooldown of your SS ability. And the your next Unleash Elements has its cooldown reduced by 50%. Can only occur once every 8 seconds.

    Now that's something I will definitely look forward to using.

    I chose UE because it would also provide good synergy the new flame shock duration, Elemental Blast, and Unleash Fury.

  10. #1050
    Deleted
    Every melee who stacks haste does so for the additional styles that come through extra resources.
    That isn't really possible for Enh as our styles have CDs, which really only leaves Maelstrom weapon as an "additional resource" of some sort... haste could get more relevant once 5 Maelstrom LBs become really important, but as Mastery & crit still buff LB significantly I'm not sure it'd bring haste closer to crit and mastery.
    So we would need something different.
    I actually like Rahdiks idea of buffing Earth Shock but I would try to keep it simple.
    In my opinion haste should just reduce the CD of all Shocks. We wouldn't cast Flame Shock more often (obviously), but we would get the chance to sneak in some more Earth Shocks. It probably wouldn't make haste our most wanted stat (or even change our stat priority), but as far as I am concerned it would be enough if haste went from ...crit >>>> haste to ...crit > haste or ...crit ≥ haste.

  11. #1051
    Deleted
    I believe i found a bug in the BETA.

    Taking Ancestral Swiftness increases my L.bolt cast time instead of reducing it.
    Had a 1.63 cast and once i got the talent it jumped to 1.92

  12. #1052
    I just never liked the idea of haste reducing any of our current abilities with cooldowns because those cooldowns are so short. You would need a lot of haste to see a significant difference. If we had an ability like Elemental Mastery and a Feedback style talent, haste would be great. I suppose a Feedback style talent for Ascendence would work, but Ascendence already seems way powerful.

  13. #1053
    Realistically Enhancement's cooldowns aren't that short.

    If Haste directly lowered the CD of Strikes, for instance...
    - EM would almost allow you to get 3 LL's in a ~20 second period compared to 2.
    - EM would allow for 3 (almost 4) SS's in a ~20 second period compared to 2.

    That would be a significant increase.

  14. #1054
    Pit Lord Protoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    That's how Haste benefits almost everyone, though. For all casters, it mostly means faster ticking DoTs (passive damage), and more filler (which is the caster equivalent of autoattacks). Even some melee, like rogues, primarily get passive benefits from Haste.

    Haste provides a passive boost because stats are basically passive in nature.

    I DO think Enhancement needs a little love for Haste on Live, but things like Unleashed Fury: Windfury are exactly that. I know Maelstrom Weapon is a PPM effect, but I can't remember if Haste boosts the PPM effect; if it doesn't, that's a change that could improve things, if it does, then that's an active damage boost right there.
    Haste does usually buff passive damage for all classes, but they also get more active damage...the "let you do more" bit. I wouldn't really compare filler spells to auto-attack, any casted or instant spell is basically an ability. Almost all classes have an increased rate of attack during BL, either faster spells or more abilities used cause of extra resource regen.

    Enhance gets ONLY passive damage buffed by haste, we have no resource and abilities on strict cd's so we can't use them at a faster rate. Our limiting resource is our cd's basically which is why I think something to let you reset cd's would be a good effect for haste, like I mention below. ULF:WF will probably help some, but it's still passive damage and it's also a talent, nothing is being fixed at the base mechanics level. The simplest solution is to find a way to make MW5 top priority again.

    MW5 is 10ppm last I checked, and it does proc more often during haste buffs like BL. This is the only way we can get more active damage via passive damage, and the only way to "do more" abilities then normal. But because of the priority it does not get used asap, and any extra procs are wasted which devalues any effect haste has.


    I also feel lightning bolts should hit hard enough that they do more damage than a Stormstrike; releasing an MWx5 should be high on the priority list (but not so high you'd ever feel a desire to stand and hard-cast). Perhaps boosting the damage per charge of Maelstrom Weapon, as well as reducing the casting time, might do the trick.
    MW5 HAS to be top priority in order for haste to be a noticeable factor. I don't think buffing LB damage is the way to go about it though, you would have to buff LB ALOT to compete with both SS and LL. That would mean taking a nerf elsewhere, as well as too much emphasis on passive damage that will not translate well to PVP. Instead of buffing LB directly, I think adding a secondary effect that works only when a full MW5 stack is consumed would be better. For example:

    -Give it a "Feedback" effect. When you consume a full MW5, you reduce cd of Ascendance or Feral Spirits by 2 sec each time.
    -Let it reset the cd of SS/LL. When you consume a full MW5, you gain a stack of "Storm Charge", once you get 3 stacks of "Storm Charge", your next SS/LL will have it's cd reset after using it.

    Both of these would encourage you to use MW5 asap. It would also let haste via MW5 "let you do more" of something active, either use cd's more often or use SS/LL more often.

    I think with the 10% each stack of MW people wouldn't hard cast LB considering a full stack gives them a better chance then 2 stacks. While I do agree a little 50% is a little high that number could be adjusted, 35% doesn't seem like it is to powerful so 7% each stack would probably be a better suggestion.

    The only problem with reseting LL cd is that it relies on the Searing Totem to become a Nuke, without the Searing Stacks it is almost lackluster. I would suggesting to Twink your Storm Charge a little. Storm Charge: you gain 1 stack of storm charge every time Maelstrom Weapon hits 5 Stacks and is used. After getting 3 stacks of Storm Charge your next Stormstrikes damage is doubled and you consume the Storm Charge stacks.
    It's true that more stacks would give you a better % chance, and while it may seem obvious to wait for us some people might think "there's not much difference between 40 or 50%, so hardcast!". Hardcasting I would only encourage for PVP, which is where having a bonus on partial stacks might make sense.....but in the end I think it's best to restrict any extra bonus to only 5 stacks.

    Searing Flames does give LL a nice boost, but it's still pretty decent damage without the buff. I'd have to compare a reg LL to SS, I'm sure LL is close if not better, but I suppose SS is better overall. I see where you are going with the "double damage", instead of reset the cd for 2xSS, just have 1 SS that does twice the damage. Personally, I think 2xSS is probably better cause you get 2 chances to proc WF, LS, or crit. Plus it emphasizes the idea of "doing abilities more often".

    I like the idea of lowering the CD of Feral Spirit / Ascendance "Super Shaman" but I do think it would have to be one not both having its cd lowered. Personally I would go for Feral Spirit. Also don't forget about if Feral Spirit gets t13 2-piece think of the CD resets during that BL phase... SO MUCH BURST!!!!
    I'd personally go for Ascendance over Feral Spirits cause it will probably be the higher dps cd of the two. Problem is you don't get it till 87. Feral Spirits you get early and the buff would help you out alot earlier. I think if they added a "Feedback" mechanic, it would be fine to use both cd's, but only 1s for FS and 2s for Ascend. Assuming 10ppm, you would get like 20s off Feral Spirits, and 1min off Ascendance.....or if Ascend was also 1s, then only 30sec off in 3min.
    Last edited by Protoman; 2012-04-11 at 02:41 AM.

  15. #1055
    im actually curious as to know if any elemental shaman in the beta can confirm if we still get the 'reduce 3 seconds cooldown on EM' whenever we cast a LB or CL, because if there still is this talent/spell, i'll still pick up EM while levelling to 90 cause of t13 bonuses.

    either way i'd doubt any elemental would pick AS, the 5% passive haste buff is delicious but the only spells we'll be instant casting is LB or CL. untill someone can confirm AS will instant a LvB then elemental would get 3 choices.

    i'd wish they change elemental mastery to add bonus damage/heals though. something like ;

    Elemental Mastery - gives you 30% haste and 10% damage/heal

    thoughts?

  16. #1056
    Quote Originally Posted by reyareya View Post
    im actually curious as to know if any elemental shaman in the beta can confirm if we still get the 'reduce 3 seconds cooldown on EM'
    Nope. That's gone.

  17. #1057
    Pit Lord Protoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reyareya View Post
    im actually curious as to know if any elemental shaman in the beta can confirm if we still get the 'reduce 3 seconds cooldown on EM' whenever we cast a LB or CL, because if there still is this talent/spell, i'll still pick up EM while levelling to 90 cause of t13 bonuses.

    either way i'd doubt any elemental would pick AS, the 5% passive haste buff is delicious but the only spells we'll be instant casting is LB or CL. untill someone can confirm AS will instant a LvB then elemental would get 3 choices.

    i'd wish they change elemental mastery to add bonus damage/heals though. something like ;

    Elemental Mastery - gives you 30% haste and 10% damage/heal

    thoughts?
    If EM is already better then AS for Ele, wouldn't adding a buff make it even better? Supposedly EM and AS are balanced as is.....(I have no idea if my math is actually right btw lol)

    Over 2 min you can cast like 60 LB's....
    EM: In those 20 sec, you would norm cast 10 LB's, but w/ EM you can cast like 15, so +5 LB's. So total in 2min is 65 casts.
    AS: With 5% haste, you have cast time of 1.9s, so over 2min you would cast 63 LB's, +2 for each instant "on use". That also is 65.

    So over 2 min, both end up giving you 65 casts, or +5 more then normal. Also, that means EoE for Elemental would have be 2.5 ppm, and a 24s icd.

    All of these only factor in LB though, with EoE you could randomly proc LvB instead of LB, for AS you get .07s off cast time for LvB all the time, and EM gives you 1.05s cast time for LvB for 20 sec but you can only use like 3-4 times in 20 sec. Dunno how that changes things.

  18. #1058
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    Quote Originally Posted by Protoman View Post
    If EM is already better then AS for Ele, wouldn't adding a buff make it even better? Supposedly EM and AS are balanced as is.....(I have no idea if my math is actually right btw lol)

    Over 2 min you can cast like 60 LB's....
    EM: In those 20 sec, you would norm cast 10 LB's, but w/ EM you can cast like 15, so +5 LB's. So total in 2min is 65 casts.
    AS: With 5% haste, you have cast time of 1.9s, so over 2min you would cast 63 LB's, +2 for each instant "on use". That also is 65.

    So over 2 min, both end up giving you 65 casts, or +5 more then normal. Also, that means EoE for Elemental would have be 2.5 ppm, and a 24s icd.

    All of these only factor in LB though, with EoE you could randomly proc LvB instead of LB, for AS you get .07s off cast time for LvB all the time, and EM gives you 1.05s cast time for LvB for 20 sec but you can only use like 3-4 times in 20 sec. Dunno how that changes things.
    Now if you line up your prepot with EM in the beginning. And maybe other on use trinkets.

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-11 at 05:15 AM ----------

    To talk a bit about resto.

    I have been running some dungeons on my shaman on the beta as resto and I have some pros and cons.

    Pros
    -Waay more CDs now with the talent that resets CDs. Imagine how you can burst with 2x spirit links and 2x healing tides during a burn phase.
    -I know we cannot relie on numbers yet. But atm it seems that healing wave heals 2/3 of greater healing wave. Numbers might change, but the scale factors for the heals accorndingly to each other might stay the same. Current healing wave is 1/3 live. I think it's a good number, maybe slighty overtuned. That is your go-to heal that generally keep things alive. If you are very good at healing, you can stick to healing wave most of the time when use one of the 3 basic heals, with a few greaters. I like how if you swap to greater healing wave it's bb mana, but alot of healing
    -Riptide change with glyph is interesting. Spamming this would result in so much healer. Imagine prehotting in 10 man + healing rain and chain heal.

    Cons
    -I still think we need more "base" tools. I once played a holy priest, and there was SO many heals, that were quite situational as well. The more situational abilities a class has, the more potential it as. Like binding heal for a holy priest is AMAZING if you don't overheal, but then again you can still do fine without using it, you just lose some potential. Now I wont compare an entire list of heals and relevant abilites to healing for a holy priest and a resto shaman, because what matters the most to me is how it's used. Earth Shield for one isn't a spell that varies on the situation. You usually just keep it up on the tank and that's it. It's nice that it's there, but it's not as hard to use as other abilities. Heals we actively use to get actual healing; 3 base heals, riptide, healing rain, unleash elements, chain heal. Now some would claim that, it is in fact alot of heals. But I just find that it's determined how to use them already. There are some certain rules that apply to different situations, like; keep healing rain down during aoe dmg, use riptide on cd, unleash elements on CD, chain heal when stacked, and no one can get a full heal from greater healing wave. Now chain heal is actually quite good as it currently is on live, and that is because it's quite rarely used, but nice when it fits the situation. Like getting a chain heal with 2-3 sec left on a riptide feels nice.

    Any thoughts?

  19. #1059
    Quote Originally Posted by Protoman View Post
    If EM is already better then AS for Ele, wouldn't adding a buff make it even better? Supposedly EM and AS are balanced as is.....(I have no idea if my math is actually right btw lol)

    Over 2 min you can cast like 60 LB's....
    EM: In those 20 sec, you would norm cast 10 LB's, but w/ EM you can cast like 15, so +5 LB's. So total in 2min is 65 casts.
    AS: With 5% haste, you have cast time of 1.9s, so over 2min you would cast 63 LB's, +2 for each instant "on use". That also is 65.

    So over 2 min, both end up giving you 65 casts, or +5 more then normal. Also, that means EoE for Elemental would have be 2.5 ppm, and a 24s icd.

    All of these only factor in LB though, with EoE you could randomly proc LvB instead of LB, for AS you get .07s off cast time for LvB all the time, and EM gives you 1.05s cast time for LvB for 20 sec but you can only use like 3-4 times in 20 sec. Dunno how that changes things.
    i thought they changed the channeling time to 1.5seconds?
    anyway im assuming you're leaving out GoUL and LvBs which is why it would seem to be 'equal'.
    the new EM is a personal bloodlust which is imo better solely because we'll be casting LvB, LB, CL, EQ, whatelsewhatnot, along with pots (prepots), trinkets, ascendance and or stormlash.

    my thoughts about picking EM is basically giving myself a personal bloodlust, while i pop a trinket (eg Bottled Wishes) and ascendance while i go fullretard LvB or i can "waste" and stack EM and bloodlust to go over 100% haste maybe??

    i'm not saying AS is bad because it doesnt instant a LvB, i just think having a short high burst as ele would benefit more. and i like to think we're all 90 and have ascendance ready-to-use.

    basically i think ;

    Elemental - EM or EoE
    Resto - AS or EoE
    Enh - EoE
    Last edited by reyareya; 2012-04-11 at 05:40 AM.

  20. #1060
    Not to be negative but

    Glyph of Chaining now increases the jump distance of your Chain Heal by 50% instead of doubling it.
    Lol what a slap in the face that is.

    Edit- I just don't like the whole ''it took us years to figure out how to increase the range and here it is, oh but it'll also do less healing'' philosophy. I'd rather see a 10% mana increase.

    That's still longer than any other similar effect (notably PoM and the new Monk equivalent).
    Have they changed PoM range? Because atm (and on MoP talent calc) it's 40 yards.
    Last edited by Eliot123; 2012-04-11 at 09:46 AM.

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