[OFFICIAL] MoP Beta Build Changes Discussion Thread

[Dave131]

So have they raised the level cap to 90 yet on Beta? Has anyone gotten to test the level 90 talents yet?

[Radux]

So have they raised the level cap to 90 yet on Beta? Has anyone gotten to test the level 90 talents yet?

Nope. As far as I'm aware, the cap is 88 (at least it was the other day).

[TecPontificates]

Interestingly, Monks and Warriors have totem like abilities that aren't as easy to kill. I'm pretty sure the monk statues are unkillable, and the warrior banners carry 33% of the warriors health.

This begs the question; Why are totems so fragile when similar abilities are so much more durable.

Because we can put a lot of them down, over and over again?

Killing a totem is just a unique way of interrupting or dispelling our abilities. Every class has a spell interrupt, only some have dispels, but every class is capable of killing our totems (and effectively "dispelling", if you will, whatever thing the totem grants). In return for this we get one of the best interrupts in the game (Wind Shear) and Purge.

[Luko]

While choosing not to jump into the uberfun semantics-bashing party here, I'll simply say that while it's up for debate whether or not they've changed the efficiency of the class (specifically enhancement) they've definitely neglected to add anything to it that makes one jump out of his chair in excitement. Other classes are changing forms or getting perma wings or gaining cool vanity abilities or just becoming all around more fun.

We, however, have been gifted with giant gaps of nothing in our rotation and glyphs/talents that represent abilities we get on live now anyway. My plan was to main enhancement this xpac like I've been wanting to do forever now, but it's just extremely hard to get motivated for it. Hell I find myself more motivated to play classes I don't even have, thanks to their extremely interesting updates and our lack-there-of.

Also, I'm not buying the "play another class" line. Of course that's always the case, but when an overwhelming majority of the shaman playerbase is already saying the same things I am, weeks and even months before me and it still hasn't changed, I no longer accept that it's my failing to be interested and it's up to me to play something else. There's obviously issues.

[Teriz]

Because we can put a lot of them down, over and over again?

Killing a totem is just a unique way of interrupting or dispelling our abilities. Every class has a spell interrupt, only some have dispels, but every class is capable of killing our totems (and effectively "dispelling", if you will, whatever thing the totem grants). In return for this we get one of the best interrupts in the game (Wind Shear) and Purge.

Four tops, and given that now the majority of them are cooldowns, we can't put them down over and over again.

I suppose I'm just not seeing the huge difference between a totem that heals the most injured ally nearby, and a statue that heals someone nearby everytime you do damage.

[Deleted]

While choosing not to jump into the uberfun semantics-bashing party here, I'll simply say that while it's up for debate whether or not they've changed the efficiency of the class (specifically enhancement) they've definitely neglected to add anything to it that makes one jump out of his chair in excitement. Other classes are changing forms or getting perma wings or gaining cool vanity abilities or just becoming all around more fun.

We, however, have been gifted with giant gaps of nothing in our rotation and glyphs/talents that represent abilities we get on live now anyway. My plan was to main enhancement this xpac like I've been wanting to do forever now, but it's just extremely hard to get motivated for it. Hell I find myself more motivated to play classes I don't even have, thanks to their extremely interesting updates and our lack-there-of.

Also, I'm not buying the "play another class" line. Of course that's always the case, but when an overwhelming majority of the shaman playerbase is already saying the same things I am, weeks and even months before me and it still hasn't changed, I no longer accept that it's my failing to be interested and it's up to me to play something else. There's obviously issues.

What is Ascendance then? What is Primal Elementalist? (uber powerful, controlled Elementals with Stuns and bonus damage is boring?)

[Radux]

I suppose I'm just not seeing the huge difference between a totem that heals the most injured ally nearby, and a statue that heals someone nearby everytime you do damage.

Well, totems usually have a powerful, short-lived effect on X cooldown, while the statue you're referring to (Jade Serpent) is stuck in place for its duration. That means that you have to be within 20 yds of your statue to have it actually heal someone when you deal damage.

The way I see it:

Shaman + Totem - oh crap I need healing now (does healing around me right when I need it)
Monk + Statue - I'm going to strategically place this statue where I feel I can have it utilized the most.

The difference between the two:

Shaman + Totem - people will try to destroy your totem
Monk + Statue - people will attempt to keep out of range of your statue so you don't actually heal people with it when you deal dmg.

[rogas]

yes indeed ... ascendance is imba ! nobody can deny that one!

[Endus]

While choosing not to jump into the uberfun semantics-bashing party here, I'll simply say that while it's up for debate whether or not they've changed the efficiency of the class (specifically enhancement) they've definitely neglected to add anything to it that makes one jump out of his chair in excitement. Other classes are changing forms or getting perma wings or gaining cool vanity abilities or just becoming all around more fun.

Ascendance is precisely this, and the overall reaction from the community when it was announced was jumping out of their chair with excitement.

We, however, have been gifted with giant gaps of nothing in our rotation and glyphs/talents that represent abilities we get on live now anyway.

Every melee has gaps in their rotation, by design. This is so that they can use utility abilities without losing DPS. In fact, the Enhancement rotation was changed to the current model after the biggest complaint regarding the rotation in WotLK was there are no gaps in the rotation.

And pretty much every class is sharing spec-specific abilities as new talents, now. That's one of the main design models they used to come up with talent choices.

[Luko]

What is Ascendance then? What is Primal Elementalist? (uber powerful, controlled Elementals with Stuns and bonus damage is boring?)

Actually yes. It's very boring to me and I won't be taking it. I have no interest in being a pet class. No biggie. =)

Ascendance is neat, I guess I was just hoping for a little more of a fun-vanity update than a costume cooldown every 3 minutes.

Don't mind me. Everyone in this thread is crazy on-edge the past few days. It's actually the reason I've waited so long to input here. No worries. I'm sure I can find less serious-toned, fun "lol wtb perma ghostwolf (etc)" threads else where.

[Teriz]

Well, totems usually have a powerful, short-lived effect on X cooldown, while the statue you're referring to (Jade Serpent) is stuck in place for its duration. That means that you have to be within 20 yds of your statue to have it actually heal someone when you deal damage.

The way I see it:

Shaman + Totem - oh crap I need healing now (does healing around me right when I need it)
Monk + Statue - I'm going to strategically place this statue where I feel I can have it utilized the most.

The difference between the two:

Shaman + Totem - people will try to destroy your totem
Monk + Statue - people will attempt to keep out of range of your statue so you don't actually heal people with it when you deal dmg.

Well beyond that, Monk statues do more than any single totem does. For example, you can actually place the statue anywhere within 40 yards. We have to pick up a talent to do that. Each statue does multiple things. Jade Serpent Statue actually has two passives; One passive heals you while you do damage within 20 yards. The other re-casts Soothing Mists on you or an ally within 40 yards. The statue can't be attacked, and it lasts for 15 damn minutes.

Keep in mind, you used to be able to click on the statue and it would heal you. However, Blizzard removed this not because it was overpowered, but because they felt that it was interfering too much with Lightwell....

The Black Ox Statue gives bonus abilities to two Monk abilities, and allows you and your allies to click on it for a shield ability. The DPS statue isn't up yet, but I'm sure it'll be just as strong as the other two.

People try to destroy our totems because they can. However, if I had the option to destroy a Monk statue or a Shaman totem, I'd probably go after the Monk statue first.

[Endus]

Well beyond that, Monk statues do more than any single totem does. For example, you can actually place the statue anywhere within 40 yards. We have to pick up a talent to do that. Each statue does multiple things. Jade Serpent Statue actually has two passives; One passive heals you while you do damage within 20 yards. The other re-casts Soothing Mists on you or an ally within 40 yards. The statue can't be attacked, and it lasts for 15 damn minutes.

Keep in mind, you used to be able to click on the statue and it would heal you. However, Blizzard removed this not because it was overpowered, but because they felt that it was interfering too much with Lightwell....

The Black Ox Statue gives bonus abilities to two Monk abilities, and allows you and your allies to click on it for a shield ability. The DPS statue isn't up yet, but I'm sure it'll be just as strong as the other two.

People try to destroy our totems because they can. However, if I had the option to destroy a Monk statue or a Shaman totem, I'd probably go after the Monk statue first.

One-to-one comparisons are not useful or constructive. You can't compare Monk statues to Shaman totems like that, because Monks are not Shaman.

[Radux]

Well beyond that, Monk statues do more than any single totem does.

Have you actually been in beta to test this? Because that's an incredibly bold statement that's likely wrong.

A quick look on beta shows HTT doing ~16-17k per tick on 5 people every 2 seconds. That means, if HTT doesn't crit (which it can), it does a minimum of 40k HPS.
That would mean that a healer monk would have to be doing at least 80k dps to even match HTT in hps.

This was done on an 85 premade. I'm not sure on the scaling, but those numbers will go up on both sides. But right now, I just don't see a healing monk doing even a third of that dps.

[Deleted]

Have you actually been in beta to test this? Because that's an incredibly bold statement that's likely wrong.

A quick look on beta shows HTT doing ~16-17k per tick on 5 people every 2 seconds. That means, if HTT doesn't crit (which it can), it does a minimum of 40k HPS.
That would mean that a healer monk would have to be doing at least 80k dps to even match HTT in hps.

This was done on an 85 premade. I'm not sure on the scaling, but those numbers will go up on both sides. But right now, I just don't see a healing monk doing even a third of that dps.

I was in the middle of posting this when I saw Radux already had. Our totems are stronger in a lot of situations, which is why they have bigger drawbacks. Plus Totems and Statues aren't the same mechanic. They changed Statues because they felt they had to much in common with Lightwell, which just goes to show they dont want Statues to be like existing mechanics in the game, so they dont want Statues to be like Totems either would be a logical step, so comparing them makes no sense anyway.

[Teriz]

Have you actually been in beta to test this? Because that's an incredibly bold statement that's likely wrong.

A quick look on beta shows HTT doing ~16-17k per tick on 5 people every 2 seconds. That means, if HTT doesn't crit (which it can), it does a minimum of 40k HPS.
That would mean that a healer monk would have to be doing at least 80k dps to even match HTT in healing done.

This was done on an 85 premade. I'm not sure on the scaling, but those numbers will go up on both sides. But right now, I just don't see a healing monk doing even a third of that dps.

No, I'm not saying that the Monk statue heals for more, I'm saying that the statues do more things and have a bit more utility than any single totem. Like being able to be placed anywhere within 40 yards. Or the Jade Statue having two passives, or the Ox Statue changing your tanking abilities and granting shields to party members who click on it.

Let's also not forget that they're invulnerable and can't be destroyed at all.

Granted HTT heals for more, but it only lasts 10 seconds, and then goes on cooldown for as long as a Monk statue does, and it can be destroyed. HTT is a powerful ability, sure, but some of our totems aren't nearly that powerful, and they can get smashed in one hit. I'm just trying to get the justification for it, because it just doesn't make sense.

Endus, I'm not seeing why we can't compare the two. They're primarily the same mechanic. Its like saying I can't compare Rogue Stealth to Hunter's Camouflage because one is the core of the class, and the other is a high end ability.

[TheThirdTry]

And honestly, I don't like that change. For much the same reasons as I like totems pretty close to as they are.

Every class needs weak points. That should be the goal. The idea with group play would be to get other players strong where you are not, and where you can make up for their weaknesses in turn.

That is your opinion and that is fair. Using Capacitator Totem as an example, It has the same weaknesses as a regular stun (it can be Trinketed), but it also has another weakness in that it has a long window of vulnerability to be killed, which no other stun in the game has. No player can just stop a shockwave, shadowfury, or dragons roar before it lands. You cannot predict when stuns are gonna happen, but you can for CPT.

THe idea of charging time for CPT was a good idea, but it was implemented poorly. We do not have enough control over the totem. THe charging time could actually be an advantage to other stuns, being able to use it like a booby trap. I would like for the shaman to control the "detonation" of the totem within 5 sec by pressing the keybind twice, which the totem will then detonate on its own if not triggered. Other people have suggested other ideas like triggering when enemy is within 10 yd range which could work too. But my point is CPT has too many limitations. In it s current form I don't see any ways for a shaman to use CPT to stun a caster without taking Totemic Projection.

Totems by themselves are a nice mechanic, the old restrictions are not.

Right on. What's the use in a pvp environment to drop any totem when they can just be one shotted, especially now that they have their own long cooldowns now.

For example: Getting low on health put down HTT - Rogue kills in GCD - wait another 3 mins ( a 3min CD negated so easily)
Enemy incoming put down SBT - Mage kills in GCD - wait another 1 min (1 min CD negated just as easily as a 3 min CD as easily as a no CD totem(searing))
And if you say well other classes 3 min CDs can just be dispelled just as easily, in MOP dispels have to be used wisely because if you dispell the wrong spell you cannot dispell the next one in time, being on a long CD, whereas totems if you choose to kil one you can just as easily kill the next one just as easy. Also a lot of spells offer protection against dispells, giving some sort of buff if dispelled; totems on the otherhand do not give anything if killed.


It makes me wonder when will these abilities ever be useful against a skilled player if they don't even have a chance to begin with?
What's the point of having them if they can always be nullified without a thought?

[Radux]

No, I'm not saying that the Monk statue heals for more, I'm saying that the statues do more things and have a bit more utility than any single totem. Like being able to be placed anywhere within 40 yards. Or the Jade Statue having two passives, or the Ox Statue changing your tanking abilities and granting shields to party members who click on it.

You're right. Their statues do more than 1 thing. They do 2 things. Maybe even 3. The thing is that each spec only gets 1 statue.
Shaman get anywhere from 10 to ~15 totems (pending on spec and talents), which all do different things (damage, utility, damage reduction, healing, whatever).

So I really don't see the argument here.

[rogas]

Probably a noob question; but do our totems scale? For instance, does BWT absorb more damage on lev 90, then it does on lev 85? Same for HHT ... Just wondering...

[TheThirdTry]

Probably a noob question; but do our totems scale? For instance, does BWT absorb more damage on lev 90, then it does on lev 85? Same for HHT ... Just wondering...

I haven't tested it, but someone on the official forums said SBT scales with % of AP for enhanc and % of SP for ele and Resto. HTT not sure of.

[Taalyn]

Healing Tide Totem will scale with your spell power, I don't know if Stone Bulwark Totem scales.