[Rogue] Official Beta Discussion

[Coldkil]

I just threw together a very quick and informal test, since I'm not really keen on staying up much later tonight, but in a quick parse, with a Slow mainhand and a Thermostatic Egg Timer offhand (IE, no useful offhand), to test Main Gauche procs for combat energy returns, I saw:

18 procs of Combat Potency with 118 Main Gauche triggers.

Certainly not enough data to be reliable. I'll do more sometime later.

just buy vendor weapons, they're good enough. and do the tests naked so procs won't modify the actual values.

[Maelstrom51]

just buy vendor weapons, they're good enough. and do the tests naked so procs won't modify the actual values.

It would be a lot easier to tell if there's a difference with high mastery gear, though.

I'd say, test in normal gear except no trinkets and white vendor weapons. Don't use SnD, only SS. Log it, don't just keep track visually. Do a 5-10 minute test with a fast offhand, do a 5 minute test with a slow offhand. Compare the energy gains from combat potency of the two.

[shadowboy]

I'd suggest using the "turn 90 degrees so autoattacks don't happen" method. This way your ONLY source of CP procs come from MG. Don't compare the actual energy gained, but rather the number of CP procs compared to the number of MG procs. Not sure 5-10 mins would be long enough though. I would do it until you have at least 100 MG procs, if not more.

The reason is simple, we want to see what effect offhand weapon speed has on MG-CP procs, and for that, you need an actual off-hand weapon equipped. The 90 degree method is the only way to conclusively test this without uncertainty introduced by off-hand autoattacks. The "no offhand" method isn't even really an option.

Run the 90-degree no-autoattack method twice, once with I'd suggest a 1.3 speed vendor dagger in offhand, and the second time with something like cookie's tenderizer (very slow weapon) to hightlight the speed differences.

High mastery gear will only reduce the time needed for a significant number of MG procs, but it's not necessary, nor will it make anything more or less conclusive than with a 0-mastery gear set.

[Coldkil]

I'd suggest using the "turn 90 degrees so autoattacks don't happen" method. This way your ONLY source of CP procs come from MG. Don't compare the actual energy gained, but rather the number of CP procs compared to the number of MG procs. Not sure 5-10 mins would be long enough though. I would do it until you have at least 100 MG procs, if not more.

The reason is simple, we want to see what effect offhand weapon speed has on MG-CP procs, and for that, you need an actual off-hand weapon equipped. The 90 degree method is the only way to conclusively test this without uncertainty introduced by off-hand autoattacks. The "no offhand" method isn't even really an option.

Run the 90-degree no-autoattack method twice, once with I'd suggest a 1.3 speed vendor dagger in offhand, and the second time with something like cookie's tenderizer (very slow weapon) to hightlight the speed differences.

High mastery gear will only reduce the time needed for a significant number of MG procs, but it's not necessary, nor will it make anything more or less conclusive than with a 0-mastery gear set.

Yeah, definitely the best method. As soon someone has the will to do these tests i'll gladly look at their WoLs so we can draw some conclusions.

[shadowboy]

Totally not even necessary. I'll probably even do the test myself and analyze them once I get an AP beta invite.

Edit: Just got my beta invite, so I'll get around to testing that shortly.

[Coldkil]

Totally not even necessary. I'll probably even do the test myself and analyze them once I get an AP beta invite.

Edit: Just got my beta invite, so I'll get around to testing that shortly.

yeah expecting your results

[shadowboy]

My first crude test doesn't look like MG-based combat potency procs are based on offhand weapon speed.

Did a 90 degree test for 20 minutes, here are my findings:
1.4 speed offhand: 139 Main Gauche procs, 33 Combat Potency procs (23.7%)
1.8 speed offhand: 141 Main Gauche procs, 31 Combat Potency procs (21.9%)
2.6 speed offhand: 126 Main Gauche procs, 22 Combat Potency procs (17.4%)

1.4: The Dreamer
1.8: Feeding Frenzy
2.6: No'kaled

The thing I DID find surprising though was with no'kaled in offhand I was getting flamebast/iceblast/shadowblast procs. Could not tell if they were from MG procs, but I could look it up real quick.

[Coldkil]

sounds strange enough. i call for a bug, since it would be definitely strange to have different proc % between combat potency and main gauche.

But anything can be possible. a 6% difference in procs is huge over a 21-23% sample.

[Kael]

On another subject, FoK on multiple targets with the legendary daggers is causing some frightening procs for Shadows and Fury of the Destroyer. In one of my ~12 minute logs in assassination, I maintained 26% uptime on Fury using 4 targets. I can confirm that DP, possibly on the secondary application rather than the first, is capable of stacking Shadows of the Destroyer. A single FoK on 4 targets brought me from 24 to 31 stacks, facing away from the dummy with auto-attack off. Easily reproduced, but I may log the event later. This does suggest that, until replaced, single target DPS might very well be increased most by FoK spamming in AoE areas to get Fury for assassination, as the damage from FoK isn't low to begin with. The poison application rate and damage of DP (at 85) also seems to make leeching poison in AoE situations a little silly at the moment. I'm running about 1.4k HPS per target...

At the moment I'm unable to open my second spec or respec to sub without the client crashing, so hopefully I can update news on sub's PvE status soon.

Anyone have insight into how scaling to 90 will effect FoK and poisons relative to the rest of all 3 specs?

[shadowboy]

sounds strange enough. i call for a bug, since it would be definitely strange to have different proc % between combat potency and main gauche.

But anything can be possible. a 6% difference in procs is huge over a 21-23% sample.

Nah, The variance is high because the sample size is small. The fact that the proc percentages are centered about 20 regardless of weapon speed is telling. Only way to get more conclusive results is to repeat the experiment to get proper confidence intervals. That I will do at a later time.

The poison application rate and damage of DP (at 85) also seems to make leeching poison in AoE situations a little silly at the moment. I'm running about 1.4k HPS per target...

DP doesn't heal via leeching poison. Neither does rupture. Only direct-damage melee strikes give you a heal. (FoK and CT may be treated as a melee attack mechanically, though).

[Kael]

Thanks for the clarification... I was having trouble tracking the overheal from LP in AoE through logs and getting nowhere. That would bring it down to ~800 healing per FoK per target after a couple of uses, but that would still seem to add up pretty quickly.

[shadowboy]

I have not tested if FoK or CT procs leeching heal. That is on my to-do list. If it does, then expect to see that change because they are technically not melee strikes. And it would be absurdly OP if they did.

[Kael]

FoK does, at least on the current beta build (although the world server is down). Sitting with 4 target dummies and getting to 30 stacks of SoF in 5-20 seconds leaves a continuous stream of 500->4k heals on my screen, with abundance on FoK casts. I do think it'll change, but we can't plan around that until it does

Messy-arse log: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/e...a1g/details/1/ has 853 non-DoT melee attacks excluding FoK (including tempest), and 1104 Leeching Poison procs, although I can't check the power of those procs easily, which is vaguely frustrating. Either rupture, CT ticks, and burning wounds are proccing leeching poison (oh god no), or FoK is. More easily tested, once the server's up, just face away from the dummy and spam FoK, with auto-attack off, and see what kind of healing you get.

[Deleted]

Do someone know why the OH speed is displayed with 1,4 while my MH has 1,34 with 34,15% haste? (Combat, Fangs of the father)
Is this just a bug or is there a new way the haste is counting for OH.

With SnD the OH speed is displayed with 0,75 and MH is ~0,94, SnD and the compass proc (+2904 haste) so its OH 0,63 and MH 0,8.
I just don't unterstand why my mainhand (basically 1,8) has ooc more attackspeed than my offhand (basically 1,4).

[shadowboy]

If you suspect a bug, make a detailed post in the beta forums. That's what beta testing is for.

[Coldkil]

Nah, The variance is high because the sample size is small. The fact that the proc percentages are centered about 20 regardless of weapon speed is telling. Only way to get more conclusive results is to repeat the experiment to get proper confidence intervals. That I will do at a later time.

Thta didn't come in my mind - hope to get a beta at least so i could test something.

[shadowboy]

So I just did some quick testing with how shiv interacts with deadly brew. When your current nonlethal poison is applied via shiv, the 50% version of crippling is automatically applied, but there is a slight delay. You do not get the 70% snare from shivved crippling, you still, however, get A snare.

---------- Post added 2012-04-16 at 07:43 PM ----------

Do someone know why the OH speed is displayed with 1,4 while my MH has 1,34 with 34,15% haste? (Combat, Fangs of the father)
Is this just a bug or is there a new way the haste is counting for OH.

With SnD the OH speed is displayed with 0,75 and MH is ~0,94, SnD and the compass proc (+2904 haste) so its OH 0,63 and MH 0,8.
I just don't unterstand why my mainhand (basically 1,8) has ooc more attackspeed than my offhand (basically 1,4).

I've noticed this speed bug. It's just a decimal point thing. The offhand is probably supposed to be 1.04 but for some reason it's displaying as 1.4, my current daggers are displaying as 1.36/1.6 instead of 1.36/1.06. The tooltip that pops up when you mouse over the weapon damage (that shows weapon damage range and time and dps for both weapons) will show the correct speed.

[shadowboy]

So, I'm about 50% of the way through 86 on beta, in valley of the four winds, and some comment on rogue leveling talents. Leeching poison is amazing as everyone knows, but the one I ended up taking in the level 30 tier: Nerve strike, amazing talent.

4 seconds at 0 damage taken + 6 seconds at 50% reduced damage taken means cheap shot + nerve strike reduces the damage you take by 70% for 10 seconds. And at level 86 it takes you about 10 seconds to kill a level 87 mob. Level 87 mobs have over 200k health and melee for 8-9k noncrit. Opening with cheap shot and speccing nerve strike is the difference between finishing a fight at 50% health if you don't open with cheap shot and 85% if you do. Nightstalker is what I've found myself using in the level 15 tier (for leveling), although this is preference. At low level (ahem, level 15), nightstalker might very well be the best option until level 20, just for the 20% movement speed while stealthed in lieu of a mount.

I'm using a combat spec and glyphing recuperate, expose armor, and cheap shot for the leveling process.

[Coldkil]

I'm leveling a pandaren rogue from scratch to get better used with the flow of the abilities and take ahead the work for the pve guide, at least for the leveling part (which, believe me, is the longest to gather info about and the most asked question just after "HURRDURR NIED BEST DPS SPEC")

The first levels are not that good - only SS and then Eviscerate, which can miss/get dodged a lot and killing even a single mob can be annoying if you get an unlucky streak. Getting to level 10 and choosing a specialization is a very big improvement in the leveling flow.

Then i tried some combat with my 85 rogue. I think i'm going for the free opener talent - the 3 second stealth dealy is surely powerful, but if you're not sublety it feels clunky due to not enough energy for a CS-ambush-garrote(or ambush) combo, and tbh if i get a CS/garrote it's more than enough to kill the mob with the next few blows having the energy not drained by openers.

[Nosferato]

well seems assa lost overkill and vw no longer can proc from rupture and garrote only one if both are up, so the 3 sec stealth talent and prep seems to be dead for assa in pve, hopefully the vw should get 100% proc and not some stupid rng making us starved on energy, as for loosing overkill is pretty bad it was a nice energy gain when you where going low on energy or pop it with bl or cd/pots