PvE in GW2.

[Deleted]

They are exactly the same in practise as quests in every other mmo and are basically the same system Rift uses to give players rift quests etc. They do give a better feel to questing but they arent the totally revolution to mmos some people are saying.

[Squirrelbanes]

They are exactly the same in practise as quests in every other mmo and are basically the same system Rift uses to give players rift quests etc. They do give a better feel to questing but they arent the totally revolution to mmos some people are saying.

They aren't the total dynamism that some fanboys are suggesting they are, granted, but neither are they anything like rift. There are not infinite possibilities, but there are many across a story of a specifc chain of events.
Rift's system is very static, and bland to the extreme frankly for it's dynamic content.
It's quite possible to level two characters in the same zones and not see any of the same "quests". That's where it varies. A DE chain has a spectrum of many possibilities, pushed back and forth from it's "starting point" for lack of a better term. Trigger point is also inaccurate, because the content is truly dynamic. There is no trigger point, there is just what is happening at the time.
These are not daily quests, as you seem to be describing them.
U need to read the mass info sticky to get an example of it. It's expressed very clearly. And there are many hundreds of these such chains.

Tbh, you simply don't know what you're talking about. The fanboys are wrong, but you're also underestimating them.

[Deleted]

It's quite possible to level two characters in the same zones and not see any of the same "quests". That's where it varies. A DE chain has a spectrum of many possibilities, pushed back and forth from it's "starting point" for lack of a better term. Trigger point is also inaccurate, because the content is truly dynamic. There is no trigger point, there is just what is happening at the time.

In the starting zones at least this is simply untrue. Almost all the DE's are not multi stage and all are static and repeat on a loop. You walk within range of the De and the completion checkpoints appear on your tracker. The only way you can level through a zone without seeing the same DE's is if you dont complete them all the first time. Much the same as any other mmo.

These are not daily quests, as you seem to be describing them.

I never mentioned daily quests i said repeatable quests. You can quite easily sit on the same spot and wait for a DE to restart over and over.

U need to read the mass info sticky to get an example of it. It's expressed very clearly. And there are many hundreds of these such chains.

Tbh, you simply don't know what you're talking about. The fanboys are wrong, but you're also underestimating them.

I don't need to read anything - you need to wait till you experience it.
You can say i do or do not know what i am talking about all you want, but the fact is you have no idea what experience i may or may not have.

The game will be epicly good fun and has some neat features that refine the mmo experience - it is not and will not be the revolution some people are touting.

[Deleted]

The game will be epicly good fun and has some neat features that refine the mmo experience - it is not and will not be the revolution some people are touting.

I disagree, but only from what I have read and not really from own experience. I think if it is as read then it will be revolutionary in a way at least from my point of view. It's the way the whole design feels like you won't have time to be bored because new things will pop up and with the PvP and random PvE combined with dungeons I think the level of interest should remain high for quite a while. This of course doesn't really build on any playing experience so until I've actually played it for a few months I can't be sure... but I haven't been this excited about a game in a while so for me the build up and excitement are a part of the package.

Also I think that the way the PvE is outlined with dungeons is just fine but I do hope they make the Explorable ones really hard and challenging. It's always more fun using skills in completing something then just zerg and loot.

[Squirrelbanes]

In the starting zones at least this is simply untrue. Almost all the DE's are not multi stage and all are static and repeat on a loop. You walk within range of the De and the completion checkpoints appear on your tracker. The only way you can level through a zone without seeing the same DE's is if you dont complete them all the first time. Much the same as any other mmo.

You said it urself...it's a starting zone. At level 1-2. The objectives are limited there. Because they want to teach you very specific things.
And no, ur missing the point. There is not "trigger point". You might come in at the "end of the chain". You might come in at the beginning. There is no NPC you run to and collect a quest.
You won't complete all the objectives. There are a very large number of DEs in a zone. You can't be even assured of winning and pushing A DE chain along.

I never mentioned daily quests i said repeatable quests. You can quite easily sit on the same spot and wait for a DE to restart over and over.

No, you can't. You don't understand how dynamic they are. You're viewing the DEs in terms of how quests are done in mainstream MMOs nowadays. If you stand there, likely the village will get overrun by the pirates you were supposed to be protecting it from. Then the village will no longer be available as a base. Then ul spawn at a waypoint close by...and find that the pirates are attacking the villages nearby. They'll have fortified the town you were waiting at and be sending out regiments to plunder the countryside.
Also, other people will come along and push them back...retake the villages...the town...and push the invaders back to the shore, then there base to kill the main boss.
You simply don't understand how DEs work. You are thinking about it in static terms. GW2 is anything but static.
That's the other point ur missing.......this is all coop. Other ppl affect what you will do constantly. And it's not a bad thing, because you don't compete with them. You standing there....has literally no affect on the world....the game won't take you into account. But it is a dynamic world. And the other ppl will be pushing it along....or failing and it will be pushed back. That's what you're kinda failing to see.

I don't need to read anything - you need to wait till you experience it.
You can say i do or do not know what i am talking about all you want, but the fact is you have no idea what experience i may or may not have.

The game will be epicly good fun and has some neat features that refine the mmo experience - it is not and will not be the revolution some people are touting

I said it's being overestimated by fanbois.
I'm not one. I've looked at the game and seen what's it is very much revolutionising. Press beta testers have confirmed my observations. Granted, I can't fully know what it's like until I play it. Which won't be long. But I trust the views of the press I've read. It's their job to be somewhat objective. I would say you need to read up a bit on DEs because you're still seeing them as very static. The pirate example is a basic and popularised one. There are a huge number of DEs.

[Deleted]

You said it urself...it's a starting zone. At level 1-2. The objectives are limited there. Because they want to teach you very specific things.

I was talking about the 1-15 zones after the instanced 1-2 starter bit.

And no, ur missing the point. There is not "trigger point". You might come in at the "end of the chain". You might come in at the beginning. There is no NPC you run to and collect a quest.
You won't complete all the objectives. There are a very large number of DEs in a zone. You can't be even assured of winning and pushing A DE chain along.

Again most of the DEs aren't chains they are single events. And this 'trigger point' you keep talking about is simply your range to the event - within range ? get the associated objectives.

No, you can't. You don't understand how dynamic they are.

Yes, you can. The event in a lot of vids were you protect a farm from worms, feed cows and put out fires in hay bales? You complete that and a giant worm spawns. Kill that and the event completes. Stand there for a few minutes and the worms attack again and the event roles over. Same as all the events.

You're viewing the DEs in terms of how quests are done in mainstream MMOs nowadays. If you stand there, likely the village will get overrun by the pirates you were supposed to be protecting it from. Then the village will no longer be available as a base. Then ul spawn at a waypoint close by...and find that the pirates are attacking the villages nearby. They'll have fortified the town you were waiting at and be sending out regiments to plunder the countryside.
Also, other people will come along and push them back...retake the villages...the town...and push the invaders back to the shore, then there base to kill the main boss.
You simply don't understand how DEs work. You are thinking about it in static terms. GW2 is anything but static.
That's the other point ur missing.......this is all coop. Other ppl affect what you will do constantly. And it's not a bad thing, because you don't compete with them. You standing there....has literally no affect on the world....the game won't take you into account. But it is a dynamic world. And the other ppl will be pushing it along....or failing and it will be pushed back. That's what you're kinda failing to see.

I am sure there are events like that, and they will be awesome, but the vast majority are nothing like that and are effectively the cookie-cutter quests we have come to know from most mmos - with the exception of not having manually pick-up or hand-in the quests.

I said it's being overestimated by fanbois.
I'm not one. I've looked at the game and seen what's it is very much revolutionising. Press beta testers have confirmed my observations. Granted, I can't fully know what it's like until I play it. Which won't be long. But I trust the views of the press I've read. It's their job to be somewhat objective. I would say you need to read up a bit on DEs because you're still seeing them as very static. The pirate example is a basic and popularised one. There are a huge number of DEs.

I am not quite sure how i can make it any clearer than i have already without breaking certain rules, but I do not need to read a post on a forums to see how the events work.

[Squirrelbanes]

I was talking about the 1-15 zones after the instanced 1-2 starter bit.

Ok...well, you clearly have more experience than me in these matters lol.
But, the press betas have said that difficulty...and thus surely DE complexity, ramps up after about lvl, I think it was 20, they quoted?
I assumed you were largely ignorant, and talking about the "very" starting areas, and I apologise.

Again most of the DEs aren't chains they are single events. And this 'trigger point' you keep talking about is simply your range to the event - within range ? get the associated objectives.

No, many aren't chains. I was taking the extreme example. As tbh I thought you were taking a somewhat extreme example of how they weren't dynamic.
However, where I think GW2 differs is that there are always consequences. There are also choices. For the more basic ones...for example a farm wife who's pumpkins are being eaten, will either sell you some food attribute buffing pumpkin pies if you completed it, or not if you run on by. There's always consequences to your actions, or inactions as the case may be, and this is where GW2 sets itself apart. If we want to take wow as an example, it's like the phased content, but that phased content is shared by the whole world, and incredibly more caried.
Some are simple, some are epic. But the princple of affecting the th wrold remains constant.

Yes, you can. The event in a lot of vids were you protect a farm from worms, feed cows and put out fires in hay bales? You complete that and a giant worm spawns. Kill that and the event completes. Stand there for a few minutes and the worms attack again and the event roles over. Same as all the events.

Ok. I'm going to resort to "beta is beta". Becasue they have said that every DE should have consequences. Maybe not all are implemented yet. But ofc, some are shorter than others. But there should always be a consequence to your actions. If there's not, it's likely they haven't implemted it yet...because they have explicitely said there will be consequences, no matter how small. There are many vids that express this. A pig trough watering one springs to mind.

I am sure there are events like that, and they will be awesome, but the vast majority are nothing like that and are effectively the cookie-cutter quests we have come to know from most mmos - with the exception of not having manually pick-up or hand-in the quests.

Yh, I suspect the majority are like that. Small, do a little thing here and there...but...see above I guess. Consequences.

I am not quite sure how i can make it any clearer than i have already without breaking certain rules, but I do not need to read a post on a forums to see how the events work.

All I can say is I expect DEs will get much more complicated as levels progress. GW2 is re-introducing many features...and I think by the time we get to the high level zones DEs should be quite intracate with their stories and chains.

[Deleted]

Like i say i am not knocking the DEs as such, they are great fun and definitely a step up in the evolution of mmo 'questing'. It just needs to be noted that they are not as revolutionary as some people are making out and overhyping features only serves to disappoint players which will lead to bad press/feeling etc and will only eventually hurt the game.

Its going to be awesome and its almost certainly going to be a success but its not going to completely redefine the whole mmo genre.

[Squirrelbanes]

Like i say i am not knocking the DEs as such, they are great fun and definitely a step up in the evolution of mmo 'questing'. It just needs to be noted that they are not as revolutionary as some people are making out and overhyping features only serves to disappoint players which will lead to bad press/feeling etc and will only eventually hurt the game.

Its going to be awesome and its almost certainly going to be a success but its not going to completely redefine the whole mmo genre.

Idd...there are some who expect every DE to be like the battle for Minas Tirith in LoTR. Those are just fanbois.
I don't think you'll find many here though. I do expect them to affect the world around me, but don't expect every one to be earth shaking.
I just expect every one to add to the sense that it's an organic, dynamic world.
We'll....well, I'll see.

[DrakeWurrum]

Its going to be awesome and its almost certainly going to be a success but its not going to completely redefine the whole mmo genre.

I really think you're going to be surprised.

The feature itself isn't new or revolutionary on it's own, but what ANet is trying to do with it certainly is. Every place I've seen this idea implemented has always been more of a novelty idea that the devs wanted to try, but were too afraid to go all out on. ANet, however, is designing the whole game around it, and refusing to implement the archaic idea of running up to an NPC, reading some random quest lore that comes up and doesn't actually matter, and then go kill X spawned mobs or collect X spawned items, and then turn it back in to an NPC for a reward, without the world actually changing.

Even Blizzard, in their constant tweaking and changing of WoW, is trying to implement similar features in the game. There's auto-accept quests becoming more prevalent, and they're constantly improving their "phasing technology" as the game goes on. But no matter how far they go, it will always be something they just added on to WoW, and won't have the same scope as GW2.


I don't expect EVERY dynamic event to be crazy raid-level awesomeness, obviously. Some of the quests are still just going to be "kill a bunch of these" or "Go grab up some of those items for me" type events. I don't expect the feature itself to be something that blows my mind. But the fact that the entire game is centered around this style of questing is going to be big, and anytime somebody who has played GW2 tries to play another MMO that doesn't have these features, they're going to be thinking "Man, GW2 did this better."
So other games are going to have to step up.

Yogscast is already reacting that way, when playing through MoP beta, after having experienced the GW2 beta. They forgot, in their first MoP beta video playing through as low-level pandaren monks, that they have to group together to work together on quests. Specifically because they had just come from playing GW2. Commenting "Wait, what? We have to do that again? Well what's the point of that..." or something to that nature.

Oh here it is.
Check out 6:20 as well.

The revolution is beginning.

[Mitobunny]

One thing to note: They aren't doing large raids (10-25 people) because it would simply be too chaotic onscreen. Basically, too many people = Less synergy/strategy and more spammy which they don't want.

[Deleted]

I can see it now.

Guardian: kk guys ill tank, ele u heal
Ele: KK!!!

The guardian proceeds to chain pull the entire room, everyone dies in about 15 seconds.

Guardian: wtf noob healer

Do you see it rly? According to wiki dungeons start at lvl 30.
Unless you can join them before, thats rly bad or not innovate game (as its not rly explained in other MMO that good about roles etc) design from GW2 that for 30 levels of playing ppl still didnt get whats are basic mechanics of game.

It sad that ppl assuming that you can play 30 levels out of 80 in game and still didnt get any idea how game works from that time / or that ppl assuming that other ppl are THAT stupid.

[DrakeWurrum]

Do you see it rly? According to wiki dungeons start at lvl 30.
Unless you can join them before, thats rly bad or not innovate game (as its not rly explained in other MMO that good about roles etc) design from GW2 that for 30 levels of playing ppl still didnt get whats are basic mechanics of game.

It sad that ppl assuming that you can play 30 levels out of 80 in game and still didnt get any idea how game works from that time / or that ppl assuming that other ppl are THAT stupid.

... you act like it's hard to make that kind of mistake? You can solo your way to max level in WoW, just as you can solo your way through the whole game in GW2.

So if you get to level 30 in GW2, and decide to go try a dungeon group with some random people, you may not yet have experienced group gameplay dynamics, namely - how different classes interact. You might still be expecting that the game has tanks and healers.

To wit: There's people in WoW more dumb than that.

[Deleted]

... you act like it's hard to make that kind of mistake? You can solo your way to max level in WoW, just as you can solo your way through the whole game in GW2.

So if you get to level 30 in GW2, and decide to go try a dungeon group with some random people, you may not yet have experienced group gameplay dynamics, namely - how different classes interact. You might still be expecting that the game has tanks and healers.

To wit: There's people in WoW more dumb than that.

And I belive that that design in WoW is bad too from this pov. WoW not teach much abotu game mechanics, you have some info, now much more then when I started playing it, but its still tiny bits of stuff - I still have no idea why starting zones wernt designed in way which can make you familiar with game and its mechanics and teaching new players stuff rather then what you have now in WoW - just some story, one better then others, but in nutshell not very usefull for new player in game.

Now read exactly what Im saying - Im saying that I would like much more if game had way, in either of events or quests or challenges etc which you (best) can repeat later to improve/refresh your memory to teach you basic stuff like agro/avoiding dmg/how healing works etc etc.

I know its a lot development time etc, thats why Im saying perfect world.
As GW2 tryign break with some schematics, I could at last except game to give hits of changed approach.

It not need to be low level only, if one would want, he could make it like training/qualifications - you complete it, you rewarded with acheivment or some item, or reputation or - you dont have access to dungeon till you not complete training w/e. Add to it some progresion that on higher level you can complete better/faster etc and you have minigame which can give ppl soemthign to do even on max level.

I know its all theory etc, but thats just one and very simple idea of how to educate players. You can do that in quests/events in game where you doing something and in same time game teach you mechanics. Possibilites are endless.

In GW2 are skill challenges, I would expect, maybe stupidly that they would teach you something, instead of being minigames etc to obtain skill points - wiki isnt clear if you learning anything about game mechanics.

---------- Post added 2012-03-24 at 08:34 PM ----------

So if you get to level 30 in GW2, and decide to go try a dungeon group with some random people, you may not yet have experienced group gameplay dynamics, namely - how different classes interact. You might still be expecting that the game has tanks and healers.

It wouldnt be hard to add something like that to moment when you are choosing your profession etc.

Forgive me this poor attempt of writing:

NPC approuch you:
Welcome new Guardian. I saw you choosed your patch. Lets it name, Guardian, not fool you, if you happen to group with others adventurers to defeat challenges together, you must work as group, team.
Each of you will need draw enemy attention as enemy current target grow weaker, each of you should attempt to help and heal each others wounds. Remember , you will find yourself facing enemy, but when you are weak and wounded, you should step back and someone other take your place. Noone will be able heal your wounds if enemy constantly attacking you.


Well I hope you got idea what I tried to do here. You can make it as some playing event, mentoring from elder adventurer, w/e . But there are ways to at last guid ppl to not have false execptations. You can have npcs to explain it to ppl, its form can be adjusted to fit gameplay.

[koji356303]

I can see it now.

Guardian: kk guys ill tank, ele u heal
Ele: KK!!!

The guardian proceeds to chain pull the entire room, everyone dies in about 15 seconds.

Guardian: wtf noob healer

Is it bad that I can't wait to be in a group like this?

[DrakeWurrum]

NPC approuch you:
Welcome new Guardian. I saw you choosed your patch. Lets it name, Guardian, not fool you, if you happen to group with others adventurers to defeat challenges together, you must work as group, team.
Each of you will need draw enemy attention as enemy current target grow weaker, each of you should attempt to help and heal each others wounds. Remember , you will find yourself facing enemy, but when you are weak and wounded, you should step back and someone other take your place. Noone will be able heal your wounds if enemy constantly attacking you.


Well I hope you got idea what I tried to do here. You can make it as some playing event, mentoring from elder adventurer, w/e . But there are ways to at last guid ppl to not have false execptations. You can have npcs to explain it to ppl, its form can be adjusted to fit gameplay.

Sorry, but that wouldn't solve the problem. NPCs can tell people whatever you want, they'll have to learn for themselves the hard way to finally realize the truth, and they might NEVER learn it, and thus quit the game because it's "too hard" or something.

Besides, not everybody actually listens to NPCs.

[Deleted]

Sorry, but that wouldn't solve the problem. NPCs can tell people whatever you want, they'll have to learn for themselves the hard way to finally realize the truth, and they might NEVER learn it, and thus quit the game because it's "too hard" or something.

Ok, looks im not clear or you just simply choose to ignore whole point of post and focus on bashing example which wasnt even that great. Instead you could make exercise and think how you would introduce new player to game mechanics in MMO like GW2.

Let me be more clear about mine point - Point was that if game not even giving info I gave in previous example, its bad game design imo, no matter if that would be enough or not for ppl to not fail.

WoW not giving you even that, and IMO thats bad design.

Game like MMO should give new players enough info so they have chance not fail when grouping with others and doing dungeons. If they dont, if game except player to have knowledge from air, especialy one which attemp to break schematics from other MMO - Thats IMO bad game design in that matter.

Is that point clear enough now?

[DrakeWurrum]

It doesn't matter if it gives the info or not, people still are going to assume that they can be tanks or healers all the way to level 30.

[Deleted]

It doesn't matter if it gives the info or not, people still are going to assume that they can be tanks or healers all the way to level 30.

Ofc it can matter, but I guess there is nothing which indicate that GW2 is revolutionary in that area too and actualy teach player about game mechanics, or you would mention it instead of going "ppl are just stupid, game cant teach them anything" route. Even in fps you have some miniguides as gameplay to teach you incase you are totaly new.

Tbh, just got idea that we might be talking about two differnt things. I was more talking about new to MMO genere players, while you about ones who played MMO before and have some habits. If thats the case then sorry (this solo leveling you used as argument throw me out of track) and well, I agree with you that there will be a lot stuborn ppl refusing to change their pov.

[DrakeWurrum]

Ofc it can matter, but I guess there is nothing which indicate that GW2 is revolutionary in that area too and actualy teach player about game mechanics, or you would mention it instead of going "ppl are just stupid, game cant teach them anything" route.

You are overestimating the intelligence of people. That's... really all there is to it.