Tales of Tyria presents "How To Guild Wars 2: The Economy"

[Razeo]

I think the reason why he went through the obvious information through the first part of the video was to basically make the explanation idiot-proof and make it as clear as possible. But overall it was a very informative video and really excited to experience this economy system!

[Merendel]

To sum up about thirteen minutes of obvious information...

Gems cAn get you everything in the game.

I'll refrain from posting a Picard face-palm but did you even pay attention to that vid or do you just like posting wildly distorted disinformation. Gem's can not buy competitive pvp gear, gems cant even buy bonuses that would even make geting that gear easier. Gems can not buy tokens or their associated gear. Gems cant even buy bonuses that help in geting token based gear other than the barely associated method of buying XP boosts that could let you level up faster to get into the dungeons sooner but its still just as hard to do the dungeon.

Clearly your statement that gems can get you everything in game is false.

[Deyadissa]

I'll refrain from posting a Picard face-palm but did you even pay attention to that vid or do you just like posting wildly distorted disinformation. Gem's can not buy competitive pvp gear, gems cant even buy bonuses that would even make geting that gear easier. Gems can not buy tokens or their associated gear. Gems cant even buy bonuses that help in geting token based gear other than the barely associated method of buying XP boosts that could let you level up faster to get into the dungeons sooner but its still just as hard to do the dungeon.

Clearly your statement that gems can get you everything in game is false.

I would charge people in world of Warcraft about ten thousand gold to get 2200 in arena, what makes Guild Wars 2 any different when it comes to carrying people for gold?

A good player in this game could carry people for gems, being able to have free cash shop items.


Just because you can't buy the gear directly for gems, it won't stop from people like me selling my service to make sure they get that gear. If anything it will happen a lot more in this game because of the fact you could carry people for a server transfer or a character recustomization for example.

[grandpab]

Wtf do you expect to carry people through?

[Tstr88]

Didn't realise this had already all been shown, although it isn't current. Surprised there isn't more complaining about some of the cash shop items tbh. Some of them definitely have the feel of a cheap f2p game and the Mystic Keys and perfect salvage items are awfully cynical in their current format.
I dont like the idea of exp boosts or extra bag options as they only way to provide incentive for buying them is to limit inventory space/exp gain for non-gem buyers.
As for 'they are all acquirable through in-game methods' this is only true by trading gold for gems - not the same thing as being able to acquire them by killing mobs/farming mats or w/e.

The mystic keys and game-store linked chests are very cheap, ruin the immersion, cashgrab feeling in their current state. I can't imagine it stays that way if they actually listen to player feedback.

[Deyadissa]

Wtf do you expect to carry people through?

All of the so called epic content that rewards bind on pickup gear essentially.


People can pay me gems (large sum because it's split) to run a seriously hard dungeon or Structured Player versus Player.


The end result for them is they bought gems with real life cash and in return they got ran through hard mode content and end up getting the best gear.


Gear isn't the only thing that can be paid for carrying. You can also pay someone to run your through Player versus Player for titles. Perfect example is HA in Guild Wars, people payed ectoplasm for wins to get the fancy emote.


Don't assume that people who are rich will never have the best gear. In the original guild wars, the very rich has to have ingame currency. In Guild Wars 2, you can buy the currency from the company. There are people out there who can and will spend thousands of dollars to maximize their gameplay. It's even easier for people to buy their way to the top since they don't have to be rich ingame to get carried, they just have to have a fat wallet.

[grandpab]

The mystic keys and game-store linked chests are very cheap, ruin the immersion, cashgrab feeling in their current state. I can't imagine it stays that way if they actually listen to player feedback.

In TBs podcast he talks about how they aren't 100% certain with what they want to do with the cash shop yet, it's all subject to change, and they're very much open to feedback and changing their mind on everything. I've heard there's already been a couple changes because of the feedback from the leaked pictures.

[Tstr88]

In TBs podcast he talks about how they aren't 100% certain with what they want to do with the cash shop yet, it's all subject to change, and they're very much open to feedback and changing their mind on everything. I've heard there's already been a couple changes because of the feedback from the leaked pictures.

No doubt. I would be surprised if they keep it the way it currently is.

[Squirrelbanes]

All of the so called epic content that rewards bind on pickup gear essentially.

People can pay me gems (large sum because it's split) to run a seriously hard dungeon or Structured Player versus Player.

The end result for them is they bought gems with real life cash and in return they got ran through hard mode content and end up getting the best gear.

Gear isn't the only thing that can be paid for carrying. You can also pay someone to run your through Player versus Player for titles. Perfect example is HA in Guild Wars, people payed ectoplasm for wins to get the fancy emote.

The only thing you could be guaranteed to get them through would be pvp 2v2. And then it's not guaranteed.
Are you going to find 3 other people to run the explorables for them also? You'll have to split the gems, and then they would have to pay more. Seems expensive and unlikely.
Also assuming they can even be completed with 1 add-on clueless person.

[Deyadissa]

The only thing you could be guaranteed to get them through would be pvp 2v2. And then it's not guaranteed.
Are you going to find 3 other people to run the explorables for them also? You'll have to split the gems, and then they would have to pay more. Seems expensive and unlikely.
Also assuming they can even be completed with 1 add-on clueless person.

I know this may seem shocking to you, but there are people out there that make a ton of money. They will spend a fraction of their money to enjoy the game more. I've seen way worse games with players spending tens of thousands of dollars just to get to the top.

Explorer mode content is possibly designed for the top 5%, so if you get a bunch of top 1% players and get a subpar player it wouldn't matter.

It worked that way in PvP, you could have a carried person get a high rank if you were good enough... it's even easier in PvE.


In Kelthuzad, just to get to 2200 in rated bgs costs you roughly $160 USD. If you were to convert tha tin Guild Wars terms, each person in the rated bg would get a cut of 1280 gems.

[Deleted]

My guild was selling different services. Not on steady basis, but when we needed cash there was always someone willing to pay ridiculous amounts of gold for that mount or just the achi (I mean really stupidly high).

And yeah, I believe me and two other guys from my guild could carry 2 retardotrons through explorer mode dungeon. Same goes for PVP, since getting a glad was never an issue.

[Deleted]

Well, seems that it fit "as long as it not give UNFAIR adventage over ppl spending time". With how Anet defining unfair being key. Good there are no damage boosts etc, tbh karma boost and Mystic Keys arnt that cool for me..

I am guessing you havent seen whats in the mystic boxes then..

[Tithonus]

I am guessing you havent seen whats in the mystic boxes then..

Have a link? I haven't heard anything confirming what is in the Mystic Boxes.

[Allanon the Mystic]

I know this may seem shocking to you, but there are people out there that make a ton of money. They will spend a fraction of their money to enjoy the game more. I've seen way worse games with players spending tens of thousands of dollars just to get to the top.

Explorer mode content is possibly designed for the top 5%, so if you get a bunch of top 1% players and get a subpar player it wouldn't matter.

It worked that way in PvP, you could have a carried person get a high rank if you were good enough... it's even easier in PvE.

You only took part of his comment when writing back.
You single handedly can't carry someone through a dungeon. The dungeons (especially explorable mode) need everyone to be really aware of what they are doing. If you would want to carry someone, 3 good people would be needed to go with you. In doing so, they would most likely ask for pay as well, jacking up the price needed for every run. And most likely in order to make it any benefit to you to use around 4 hours to do a dungeon the price would be high just for you alone, not to mention the others that are helping. Yes, there are some people willing to give a lot of money to do this, but most of the overall populace will most likely not be willing to pay an arm and leg to do so.

PvP is another story, you can most likely take 4 good people into PvP and 1 or 2 carries for 5v5. For WvW though, the idea of doing it is just silly. He could easily just group with the other dozens of people in the area for free, why would he choose you? Cause you (might be) amazing at PvP and pay, again, an arm and a leg? Unless you got a giant horde of players with you, then tell all the noobies to pay up, then I don't see the point. The other option would to make others pay you until you got a giant horde which again, is just stupid. Your horde of random players that payed wouldn't be better then a horde of players that didn't pay. And don't go on the argument of "I know how to get things done and order people around to get it done." You're not the only one, and most people will do it for free just to get WvW going.

TL;DR
Read it.

[Deleted]

Have a link? I haven't heard anything confirming what is in the Mystic Boxes.

There were various different things leaked around and about, not sure if i should link them here or not with the NDA but there was a 10%dmg reduction, 10% armor incr and 10% dmg dealt 1hour scrolls along with a variety of different cosmetic potions and short duration versions of the things in the cash shop (exp/karma/magic find boosts). You can find screenshots etc if you google them.

Given the reaction to them they will almost certainly change but its a bit worrying they even thought to try them in the first place.

[Vlad Morbius]

To be honest, I just don’t see the level to which any of this will be nearly as exploitable as WoW. This isn’t a gear centric game and there is a much better loot distribution system, as for the bonuses and scrolls they are all temporary and have various conditions on them. Worst case they can just add more conditions to their usefulness and eliminate those they see as exploitable, after all this is still beta.
There will always be some out there smart enough to find a way to make something extra through exploitation be it monetary or with exploitation but I just don’t see it being nearly as serious or it’s possible ramifications being anywhere close to the current MMOs.

[Bridger]

lol WvW isn't supposed to be balanced. That'll change after a wave of complainers).

Anet has expeicitly said that WvW is a casual PvP environment. They will not be balancing the teams. That, by definition, means that it will be unbalanced. If my server brings 150 people on average and yours brings 250 on average, that's an unbalanced matchup. This is on purpose, it's by design. There are some factors that will help ease this burdon (some bonuses encourage players on the outnumbered server to join WvW; over time servers with more players will likely climb the ranks to fight against other WvW-centric servers, etc.) but there are no hard-coded methods to balance WvW.

If a 4% boost in stats for one team around a single objective matters that much to you, I can't imagine how upset you will be when you fight a team that has twice as many people as you.

I know this may seem shocking to you, but there are people out there that make a ton of money. They will spend a fraction of their money to enjoy the game more. I've seen way worse games with players spending tens of thousands of dollars just to get to the top.

Explorer mode content is possibly designed for the top 5%, so if you get a bunch of top 1% players and get a subpar player it wouldn't matter.

It worked that way in PvP, you could have a carried person get a high rank if you were good enough... it's even easier in PvE.

I think your numbers might be a little skewed. If 20% of your team isn't contributing correctly, you'll still fail a dungeon designed to require 95% productivity. I don't care if the other 4 are in the top 1%, content designed for 5 players in the top 5% will not be possible with 4 players. And if that guy you're running through the dungeon actually can carry his own weight enough to complete it, well then he's earned the reward himself. It is still a little sad that he had to pay some people to play with him, but he did make it through, give him the armor. He deserves it.

And as for PvP, Glory is just another way to track how much time you spent in PvP, as far as I can tell. I'm not sure exactly how it works though, so I'll reserve judgement on that for later.

[Lucky_]

One of the most apologist, red herring filled videos I've seen on topic.

Quick list of red herrings I've spotted on first watch though

"All transitions between currencies are inefficient so it doesn't matter" (except for, of course, very efficient gems > gold which is the entire point of contention).
"Gems aren't linked to Karma" "Gems are linked to Karma, but it doesn't really matter" "Gems are pay to win, but you can just go around the keep of guild that uses it for P2W" (several others all revolving around the fact that Karma doesn't really matter, or that advantages in WvW don't really matter, even when acknowledging that such advantages indeed exist).

And of course, the issue with gems destroying economy for average players by inflating gold price for everything due to red herring #1 is simply ignored in spite of countless examples from other games where they cause exactly that.


Anyway, all of this was discussed in the thread that got closed for fighting. This video is just another attempt to white wash the cash shop through presenting uninformed people with a long list of red herrings to draw attention from actual problems.

[Bridger]

One of the most apologist, red herring filled videos I've seen on topic.

Quick list of red herrings I've spotted on first watch though

"All transitions between currencies are inefficient so it doesn't matter" (except for, of course, very efficient gems > gold which is the entire point of contention).

I don't think I said "it doesn't matter." My point was that it would be very expensive to get very small buffs, so I doubt people will really take advantage of it. If it costs $10 a month to keep your guild fully stocked with buffs all month, then if this were a problem, it would be a huge problem. As it stands, I estimate that it will cost a substantial amount of money to get any significant advantage over a large, active guild (who will produce a lot of influence just by playing). As a result, even were it to be deemed a problem, it will be a rare problem.

"Gems aren't linked to Karma" "Gems are linked to Karma, but it doesn't really matter"

Gems are not directly linked to Karma, they are indirectly linked to Karma. You cannot simply pay $100 and get a ton of Karma, you still have to play DEs and WvW just like anybody else does. The only difference is you can play a little less for the same amount of Karma. This, again, suggests that, were Karma-purchasing a problem, it would not be a big problem.

"Gems are pay to win, but you can just go around the keep of guild that uses it for P2W" (several others all revolving around the fact that Karma doesn't really matter, or that advantages in WvW don't really matter, even when acknowledging that such advantages indeed exist).

Any advantages gained by purchasing gems are dwarfed by the advantages of having larger numbers of more organized players. If you are OK with one side having arbitrary advantages just because they happened to have a server more interested in WvW, you damn well should be OK with a much much smaller advantage. The town is flooding and you're bitching and moaning over a leaky gutter. Why does the gutter bother you more than the flooding?

And of course, the issue with gems destroying economy for average players by inflating gold price for everything due to red herring #1 is simply ignored in spite of countless examples from other games where they cause exactly that.

Inflation is the increase in market prices of general goods and services. In MMOs this is almost always caused by more coin being generated than removed from the economy. It can also be caused by a lack of value for the currency. In Diablo II, for example, coin wasn't worth much, and you eventually had so much of it that the only thing to do with it was gamble on the magic items. The players used a different currency instead (Stone of Jordan; a rare and powerful ring), because that currency had an actual inherent value to the players. In GW1, my understanding is that the economy simply had too much gold, and characters couldn't even hold it all, so they used Ecto instead. Tying Gems (and thus, items in the gem store) to the gold economy gives the gold an inherent value. It's not just a fiat currency that has value because we pretend it does (like the US dollar right now). Gold will be able to buy you things from the gem store that players value. The only remaining question is, can Arenanet stop inflation due to excess gold? Hopefully they have the ability to tune their gold faucets/sinks appropriately.

Anyway, all of this was discussed in the thread that got closed for fighting. This video is just another attempt to white wash the cash shop through presenting uninformed people with a long list of red herrings to draw attention from actual problems.

It's an attempt to inform those who predict the worst based upon too little evidence. If the top guilds all buy influence with cash and the 4% boost to stats (less than what an orb of power grants, btw) make a huge difference, I'm in the streets protesting with you. If Karma items or items inside the chests are so rare that the only feasible way to get them is with karma boosts mystic keys, it'll be the next Bridger Rant on the podcast. I don't foresee either of those things happening.

[airea]

Wow, that was... insanely brilliant. I'm glad someone finally laid that to rest without being a total fanboy about it. Hopefully the Gem -> Gold -> Influence -> Cost of Guild Benefits will be extremely inefficient, like he's suggesting.