Windwalker playstyle perhaps needs a DoT or buff?

[Deleted]

At the moment it just seems like we have 3 Chi based "finishers", all of which are just blasts of direct damage, and 2 of which are on very short CDs. There don't, as yet, seem to be any buffs to keep up, or any DoT mechanics at all. I am fine with no DoTs - I think they are an overused mechanic anyway, but I think Windwalker could do with something to make it a little more involved. Anyone else agree?

[420rogue]

While we don't have DoT's or a self buff to keep up, I think they are leaning towards CD usage to seperate the good and the bad? I hope there is something there to help the good players stand out from the bad other than # of deaths reported on WoL.

[Deleted]

I agree that so far, based on the information we have been given, there does seem to be a lack of a little 'something else' to make the rotation seem more interesting. As always, it is very difficult to say until we've tried it, in action.

I'm also curious about:

Muscle Memory (LVL 72)

Your fighting technique improves over time during combat. Anytime you Jab a target from behind, your chance to critically hit with Jab increases by 1% for 30 seconds. This effect can stack up to 100 times.
Leaving combat or an encounter will clear your Muscle Memory.

Not that this isn't an interesting mechanic, but this could be punishing on certain encounters, with the amount of time it takes to build up. Although, it could simply be a nice extra bit of flavour that we won't be balanced around. Time will tell!

[billtimbob]

It definitely looks faceroll right now, but I hope they don't add any DoTs. I don't understand why virtually every (every?) DPS spec in the game needs to rely on DoTs in some form or another.

[kindath]

It definitely looks faceroll right now, but I hope they don't add any DoTs. I don't understand why virtually every (every?) DPS spec in the game needs to rely on DoTs in some form or another.

To reduce burst damage? To increase skill cap by giving you another timer to optimize for maximum dps?

Given the amount of damage jab does compared to all the chi spenders and even autoattacks, I doubt that muscle memory will have as significant an impact on DPS as you might think.

[420rogue]

I'd prefer a self buff over a DoT any day if they do add something.

[Noviskers]

I'd prefer a self buff over a DoT any day if they do add something.

I agree, there are already enough DPS specs out there that use dots. So I would like to see a little depth added to this class.

[KennyLee]

Unfortunately, it will probably have to be a DoT, and I really feel it will be implemented. The reason behind the DoT's is to balance out PvP. If you don't have a DoT, and damage output is balanced, that means each of your abilities need to hit harder to make up for the damage, and this tends to be too "bursty" for PvP.

Jab, Jab, Jab, Tiger Palm, Rising Sun Kick
Repeat until 35%
Jab, Jab, Jab, Tiger Palm, Blackout Kick

...or something like that doesn't seam very interesting game play at all.

[Huckfealing]

Unfortunately, it will probably have to be a DoT, and I really feel it will be implemented. The reason behind the DoT's is to balance out PvP. If you don't have a DoT, and damage output is balanced, that means each of your abilities need to hit harder to make up for the damage, and this tends to be too "bursty" for PvP.

Jab, Jab, Jab, Tiger Palm, Rising Sun Kick
Repeat until 35%
Jab, Jab, Jab, Tiger Palm, Blackout Kick

...or something like that doesn't seam very interesting game play at all.

It actually looks more likly that they way it will break down is...

100-50% - Tigers palm/Rising Sun Kick/Fist of Fury (mastery Procs will still be Tigers Palm)
50-35% - Tigers Palm/Rising Sun Kick/Fist of Fury (Mastery Procs will be Black out Kick)
35-0% - Black out kick/Rising Sun Kick/Fist of Fury (Mastery Procs will be Black out Kick)

Fist of Fury will only be in there if it, is in fact, a powerful chi spender. because if 3 tigers palm = more than 1 Fist of Fury then its a waist, and, also if 1 1/2 Black out kicks is more powerful than a FoF then its thrown out the window. It is possibly it will be very effective during the 15% that neither TP or BOK is buffed/active.

[KennyLee]

It actually looks more likly that they way it will break down is...

100-50% - Tigers palm/Rising Sun Kick/Fist of Fury (mastery Procs will still be Tigers Palm)
50-35% - Tigers Palm/Rising Sun Kick/Fist of Fury (Mastery Procs will be Black out Kick)
35-0% - Black out kick/Rising Sun Kick/Fist of Fury (Mastery Procs will be Black out Kick)

Fist of Fury will only be in there if it, is in fact, a powerful chi spender. because if 3 tigers palm = more than 1 Fist of Fury then its a waist, and, also if 1 1/2 Black out kicks is more powerful than a FoF then its thrown out the window. It is possibly it will be very effective during the 15% that neither TP or BOK is buffed/active.

True, but it's still basically just:
1. A few Jabs
2. Either Tigers Palm or Black Out Kick (depending on boss health)
3. A Rising Sun Kick
3.5 Toss in a second TP or BOK on Mastery Procs (again depending on boss health)
...repeat ad nauseam.

Not a very "deep" rotation/priority.

I don't think Fist of Fury will have as much damage per Chi as Tiger Palms, or either kick, simply because of the stun linked with it. Useless on bosses, I know, but I don't foresee it as a part of a standard priority. Except maybe like you said during the window between buffed Tigers Palm and Black Out Kick activation. Maybe on Adds where the stun can come into effect to help reduce incoming damage, etc.

What are anyone's thoughts on only building up 3 Chi and spending them to maximize White Tiger Statue procs? Will the extra time spent on GCDs, coupled with the time it take to build energy to get the extra Chi be worth it to get an extra finisher in before Jabbing again. Or will keeping statue procs happening on the shorter interval be more effective? I know the numbers aren't really in yet, but I think definitely something to consider.

[Deleted]

Granted it doesn't seamt o have the most intriguing rotation yet seen in the game, but it could be worse.
I mean does this look familiar.

Slice'n'Dice > (if bleed dmg debuff) Rupture > Eviscerate > Sinister strike.

[Noviskers]

It actually looks more likly that they way it will break down is...

100-50% - Tigers palm/Rising Sun Kick/Fist of Fury (mastery Procs will still be Tigers Palm)
50-35% - Tigers Palm/Rising Sun Kick/Fist of Fury (Mastery Procs will be Black out Kick)
35-0% - Black out kick/Rising Sun Kick/Fist of Fury (Mastery Procs will be Black out Kick)

Fist of Fury will only be in there if it, is in fact, a powerful chi spender. because if 3 tigers palm = more than 1 Fist of Fury then its a waist, and, also if 1 1/2 Black out kicks is more powerful than a FoF then its thrown out the window. It is possibly it will be very effective during the 15% that neither TP or BOK is buffed/active.

I don't see FoF being part of the rotation because A) its 3 chi and it is very likely that a kick + tiger palm or 3xtiger palm would do more damage and B) it is a channeled ability so not only would it need to do more damage than a kick+TP (or 3xTP) it would also need to do more damage than a few jabs + chi generated from those.

[kindath]

You seem to be misunderstanding what mastery does.

Every time you jab, you have an x% chance (1.4% per point of mastery) to gain a buff that makes your next tiger palm consume no chi.
You have an independent x% chance to gain a buff that makes your next blackout kick cost no chi and be usable regardless of the target's current health.

Both can proc off the same jab. You can only spend combo breaker tiger palm on a tiger palm, and can only spend combo breaker blackout kick on a blackout kick.

The rotation that seems to work best is
Use rising sun kick on cooldown
Use blackout kick procs and tiger palm procs, in that order
Sub 35%, use blackout kick, above 35%, use tiger palm, saving 2 chi for RSK
Jab.
There's some leeway in there if you're going to cap energy, you can jab instead of spending chi, but generating chi past the cap is worse than capping energy.
Fists of fury is a powerful aoe ability, but not worth it for single target.

[Deleted]

The rotation that seems to work best is
Use rising sun kick on cooldown
Use blackout kick procs and tiger palm procs, in that order
Sub 35%, use blackout kick, above 35%, use tiger palm, saving 2 chi for RSK
Jab.
There's some leeway in there if you're going to cap energy, you can jab instead of spending chi, but generating chi past the cap is worse than capping energy.
Fists of fury is a powerful aoe ability, but not worth it for single target.

I wonder whether above 50% Tiger Palm may win out over even a procced blackout kick thanks to the buff TP gets on targets above 50% though?
I mean looking at current wowhead tooltips (these may obviously be hideously inaccurate but it's all we really have to go on at the moment) we have:

Blackout Kick:
Kick with a blast of sha energy, causing (11.6 + 5.4 * level) Physical damage to an enemy target

Tiger palm:
Attack with the palm of your hand, dealing (7 + 3.2 * level) Physical damage. Deals (3.5 + 1.6 * level) additional damage if the target is above 50% health.

Lets assume you are level 90 for ease of calculations (I am no great shakes at maths though so correct me if I'm wrong - this is all very vague napkin maths)
BK: 11.6 + 5.4 * 90 = 497.6

TP: 7 + 3.2 * 90 = 295
3.5 + 1.6 *90 = 296.6
So the total is, in theory, for a TP on a target above 50% HP 295 + 296.6 = 591.6

IF this is correct (which it may very well not be, if any uber maths nuts would correct me if so that would be great!) then Tiger palm would surely take priority over blackout kick on a target that has more than 50% HP remaining.

***EDIT***
Thinking about it though, this will only really arise with a mastery procced BK. We don't know the ICD on the mastery (if there even is one) but if it is a reasonable length of time might it be more worthwhile to prioritise even a non proced TP on a target above 50% HP over a mastery BK provided you have enough Chi to do so?

[kindath]

Haha, yeah, fair enough. To be honest, though, if you have both procs up, it doesn't really matter which you use first, as long as you use them both before you jab again and don't cap on energy. You'll still get to use all the spells, just in a different order.

I'm not sure if those numbers are actually correct. Granted, I've only done extensive testing on the combat dummies, but tiger palm was doing roughly half the damage of a blackout kick on a target that should be considered at 100% health. Which sort of makes sense, since blackout kick costs twice as much.

Mastery has no ICD, I've had it proc blackout kick on two consecutive jabs, and proc blackout kick + tiger palm and then blackout kick again on the next jab.

EDIT: 3.5 + 1.6 * 90 = 147. So total for tiger palm would be 442.5 damage, not 591. Given those numbers, it looks like the bonus damage might not be activating on the combat dummy. Hmmm.

[KennyLee]

You seem to be misunderstanding what mastery does.

Indeed I was. I was reading it as a % chance for a proc, and when procc'd you can either use a free Tigers Palm, or a free Blackout Kick (regardless of mob health). Meaning You'd probablly want to use it for a TP above 50%, and for the BoK below. But if it's 2 separate procs, that are completely independent of each other that changes things up a bit.

[Deleted]

EDIT: 3.5 + 1.6 * 90 = 147. So total for tiger palm would be 442.5 damage, not 591. Given those numbers, it looks like the bonus damage might not be activating on the combat dummy. Hmmm.

I am officially a moron. Or my calculator is broken, no idea how I got to 296.6

It might be a bug with combat dummies, or it might be the bonus damage HP check itself that's broken. Gah, wtb beta invite already :/

Sounds like mastery (I struggle to think about it without yelling C-C-C-CCOMBO BREAAKKEERR) is gonna add a fair amount of rng to the rotation, not sure how I feel about that but it's still early days.

Will be interesting to see how the playstyle would change if you managed to get a druid to use Symbiosis on you - Berserk could do interesting things to the rotation. Having said that, with only really jab using lots of energy and our finishers using Chi its debatable how much of a buff Berserk would be.

We don't yet know what druids get in return for casting symbiosis on a monk - I doubt a druid tank will symb us though, because Evasion for a druid tank is just mental. Boomkin get Recklessness from a warrior too so it would have to be something pretty sick for them to want to give symb to a monk over a warrior in that regard

[Huckfealing]

You seem to be misunderstanding what mastery does.

Every time you jab, you have an x% chance (1.4% per point of mastery) to gain a buff that makes your next tiger palm consume no chi.
You have an independent x% chance to gain a buff that makes your next blackout kick cost no chi and be usable regardless of the target's current health.

Both can proc off the same jab. You can only spend combo breaker tiger palm on a tiger palm, and can only spend combo breaker blackout kick on a blackout kick.

The rotation that seems to work best is
Use rising sun kick on cooldown
Use blackout kick procs and tiger palm procs, in that order
Sub 35%, use blackout kick, above 35%, use tiger palm, saving 2 chi for RSK
Jab.
There's some leeway in there if you're going to cap energy, you can jab instead of spending chi, but generating chi past the cap is worse than capping energy.
Fists of fury is a powerful aoe ability, but not worth it for single target.

Fist of Fury will only be in there if it, is in fact, a powerful chi spender. because if 3 tigers palm = more than 1 Fist of Fury then its a waist, and, also if 1 1/2 Black out kicks is more powerful than a FoF then its thrown out the window. It is possibly it will be very effective during the 15% that neither TP or BOK is buffed/active.

As you can see I was speaking hypothetically. I would agree with you on all points, however, we don't know currently, if Fist of Fury will in fact be Powerful enough for Single Target. Also, the current Mastery, can you Provide a Link that says it Specifically splits them into 2 procs? Cause I had not seen that.


Also: If Fist of Fury is not good for Single target, then what currently will our Statue Proc off of? The way it reads, is if you use an ability that that cost 3 or more it will proc, not if you spend 3 in a set amount of time.

[elfporn]

im pretty sure he was speaking of the split procs based on current beta experience...even if it's not in a tooltip, thats the way its working.

statue procs after you use 3 chi.

"When you consume 3 Chi, your Statue will conjure a White Tiger Effigy which travels towards the last enemy you attacked, dealing 846 damage."

no where does it say that it procs after you use an ability that costs 3 chi or more, it simply says when you use 3 chi, an effigy will spawn.

[kindath]

Beta account.

The statue procs for every 3 chi you spend. i.e. if you cast rising sun kick and then a tiger palm, it'll make a tiger effigy. They're currently bugged on beta and don't actually do any damage when they reach their target.