1. #2901
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins View Post
    You can defend it all you want... but any of these troll builds I have seen are ONLY successful in the videos that promote them. I have never seen a troll build used effectively in an actual game. Even the videos promoting them you can tell are only mediocre and if they would build normal they would be performing far better than these troll builds.

    The only thing I will concede is that some are interesting uses of in game mechanics, and once again the players making videos are probably pretty familiar with these champions and could probably rack up kills regardless of build just because of their familiarity with the champion.

    While the people that I am personally playing with who are merely trying to recreate the magic they have witnessed on youtube are really doing the build an injustice and disservice.
    You are still making yourself look silly by calling normal builds "troll". Look at the champions abilities instead of their design. Poppy scales only off AP - building her AD makes about as much sense as an AP Vayne and she should not be built tank since she's a carry-murderer with her ultimate, created to 100-0 faster than a 50 min Nasus.

    Tryndamere's Q and E scale off AP, and with a very good ratio. It might not be a diamond-viable build, but it is a viable thing at lower elo and currently the only effective way to play Tryndalol.

    Warwick's Q also scales off AP, and at 1.0 ratio.If you want some damage you are better off building AP on him than AD - he's still primarily a tank though. Building AP early in lane also gives him even more sustain.

  2. #2902
    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins View Post
    You can defend it all you want... but any of these troll builds I have seen are ONLY successful in the videos that promote them. I have never seen a troll build used effectively in an actual game. Even the videos promoting them you can tell are only mediocre and if they would build normal they would be performing far better than these troll builds.

    The only thing I will concede is that some are interesting uses of in game mechanics, and once again the players making videos are probably pretty familiar with these champions and could probably rack up kills regardless of build just because of their familiarity with the champion.

    While the people that I am personally playing with who are merely trying to recreate the magic they have witnessed on youtube are really doing the build an injustice and disservice.
    You're pretty much admitting the build isn't really a bad thing in the right hands. This goes for any build, champion, role, setup, whatever. Just because you had some bad players, does not mean the actual build is bad. The player was bad / had a bad game.

    Have you ever had a bad game where you couldn't do much to contribute to the team? I'm pretty sure your rager team mates thought exactly the same way that you thought about the supposedly bad players you've been playing with.

  3. #2903
    I'll just add these in:

    AP Soraka. AP Sona. AP Tristana. Bruiser Thresh. Kayle in ANY lane. AP Yi.

    I'm sure there are more but I can't think of them off the top of my head.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rampant Rabbit View Post
    You're pretty much admitting the build isn't really a bad thing in the right hands. This goes for any build, champion, role, setup, whatever. Just because you had some bad players, does not mean the actual build is bad. The player was bad / had a bad game.

    Have you ever had a bad game where you couldn't do much to contribute to the team? I'm pretty sure your rager team mates thought exactly the same way that you thought about the supposedly bad players you've been playing with.
    No I'm not, because I have yet to actually witness any troll build used effectively. What I am saying is that it would appear that no one can recreate what they have seen on a video.

    Also if you look up any video or guide to any of these unorthodox builds you will see them saying the same thing viable in some normal, and low ELO (essentially meaning that as long as your opponents are down right retarded this build works)

    Getting back on track... in this not the appropriate thread to complain about bad games and bad players making bad choices that effect the outcome of our games? Cuz i'm pretty sure it is... be it that they made the bad choices early on with champion select or with build choice.

    Bottom line... none of these troll builds are successful in competitive play.

    Your defense of these asshats leads me to believe that you yourself are the type of players I have on my ignore list and the ones that I report on a frequent basis, my bet is that you are on your 2nd or even 3rd account at this point because of being banned.

    You have also made my ignore list on mom-champion as I really don't give a flying F what moronic defense you can come up with to defend these players or their builds. When your having fun is at the expense of your fellow teammates that makes you a giant douche and you deserve to be posted about in this very thread.

    Also if you guys are so confident in your abilities feel free to post a link to your LoL profile for verification that you are in any sort of competitive bracket and that you actively use a troll build to rank up.

    Can't do it? Then its not viable. BOTTOM LINE!

    Infracted, do not flame other users.
    Last edited by Isrozzis; 2013-02-20 at 03:27 AM.

  5. #2905
    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins View Post
    No I'm not, because I have yet to actually witness any troll build used effectively. What I am saying is that it would appear that no one can recreate what they have seen on a video.

    Also if you look up any video or guide to any of these unorthodox builds you will see them saying the same thing viable in some normal, and low ELO (essentially meaning that as long as your opponents are down right retarded this build works)

    Getting back on track... in this not the appropriate thread to complain about bad games and bad players making bad choices that effect the outcome of our games? Cuz i'm pretty sure it is... be it that they made the bad choices early on with champion select or with build choice.

    Bottom line... none of these troll builds are successful in competitive play.

    Your defense of these asshats leads me to believe that you yourself are the type of players I have on my ignore list and the ones that I report on a frequent basis, my bet is that you are on your 2nd or even 3rd account at this point because of being banned.

    You have also made my ignore list on mom-champion as I really don't give a flying F what moronic defense you can come up with to defend these players or their builds. When your having fun is at the expense of your fellow teammates that makes you a giant douche and you deserve to be posted about in this very thread.

    Also if you guys are so confident in your abilities feel free to post a link to your LoL profile for verification that you are in any sort of competitive bracket and that you actively use a troll build to rank up.

    Can't do it? Then its not viable. BOTTOM LINE!
    You're complaining about builds. I'm pointing out that it's not about the build, but about the player.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    You are still making yourself look silly by calling normal builds "troll".
    I'm just going to go ahead and use recommended builds as a defense for champion design intent.

    While some of these may contain tank items or even hybrid items... none of them are suggesting going straight AP like you would building a mage.

    The players I am playing with... are building straight AP items.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 07:26 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rampant Rabbit View Post
    You're complaining about builds. I'm pointing out that it's not about the build, but about the player.
    and i'm not disputing that...

    as many of these players are only building this way because they are bad, and they think that because they've watched a video where someone was not only able to sustain and minimize deaths, but they were also able to rack up kills, that they themselves can recreate it (and they can't)

    not only that but they are so focused on forcing it and MAKING it work that they ignore their team, and end up feeding trying to force something that just isn't going to happen, it isn't a pleasant experience

    no build is going to change the fact that you are bad at a champion

    my defense to your argument about builds (one that you keep ignoring) is that they are not viable in competitive play and the ones creating these builds and showing them off are themselves testifying to that fact.

    regardless of your skill and familiarity with a champion why would build something that is so self serving early and mid game, and detrimental to your team during team fights and late game... its selfish, and the complete opposite of not only the summoners code, but the spirit of teamwork
    Last edited by A dot Ham; 2013-02-20 at 03:30 AM.

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    Voyboy (Crs' top laner, and one of the best in the world) playing AP tryndamere.

    Yes it works. It's not a troll build. You were experiencing bad players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    You are still making yourself look silly by calling normal builds "troll". Look at the champions abilities instead of their design. Poppy scales only off AP - building her AD makes about as much sense as an AP Vayne and she should not be built tank since she's a carry-murderer with her ultimate, created to 100-0 faster than a 50 min Nasus.
    The point of building AD on Poppy is so you won't be a one-trick pony with the AP combo of Ult + DFG + Gunblade + Q = dead carry. AD Poppy would allow you do deal damage outside of when all of your CDs are up. You still have to build Magic Penetration because her Q damage is still magic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thallidomaniac View Post
    The point of building AD on Poppy is so you won't be a one-trick pony with the AP combo of Ult + DFG + Gunblade + Q = dead carry. AD Poppy would allow you do deal damage outside of when all of your CDs are up. You still have to build Magic Penetration because her Q damage is still magic.
    I'm a lot more scared of an AD poppy than an AP one. Yes the AP one can turn your carry into mush into about a second and there really isn't anything you can do, but the AD one can do about the same in just about the same time, then keep on swinging.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isrozzis View Post


    Voyboy (Crs' top laner, and one of the best in the world) playing AP tryndamere.

    Yes it works. It's not a troll build. You were experiencing bad players.
    I've seen this video...

    (1) He himself calls it a troll build.
    (2) He is playing a normal game
    (3) He admits to it being garbage for team fights and late game
    (4) The majority of the video he is solo top lane vs GP who just keeps feeding him (this is NOT competitive play)

    I mean actually watch the video... I can't say I'm all that impressed with the build itself other than it was interesting to see how AP was actually functioning in conjuction with Tryn.

    I understand the reasoning behind the build and the mechanics behind it, I also know how weak tryn can be early game until he gets his Ult (this build is trying to minimize that) but given how Hec and GP were playing if he had gone an AD build and just played it safe until level 6, he could have done work, instead of ending up the 11/8 (i think that was his score pretty crappy quality vid)

    furthermore, he says early on that his runes are not mage build and what have been describing is the players I am seeing are building these straight AP mage style. But once again... this thread is about bad games, and the bad players that make them that way

    all of this only validating what I have been saying.
    Last edited by A dot Ham; 2013-02-20 at 03:48 AM.

  11. #2911
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins View Post
    I've seen this video...

    (1) He himself calls it a troll build.
    (2) He is playing a normal game
    (3) He admits to it being garbage for team fights and late game
    (4) The majority of the video his is solo top lane vs GP who just keeps feeding him

    I mean actually watch the video... I can't say I'm all that impressed with the build itself other than it was interesting to see how AP was actually functioning in conjuction with Tryn.

    all of this only validating what I have been saying.
    Would you consider jungle ezreal a troll build? It's been used in tournaments before.

    The thing with gimmicky AP builds or whatever is that they have very specific things they do. AP trynd absolutely destroys lane as you can tell in the video. In most of the games if your lanes have gone at least somewhat even you have destroyed your lane so badly that the sheer gold advantage will carry you into the mid to late game.

    In super late game when gold has mostly equalized you will be less effective relative to everyone else. But that's not the point. The point is to exploit the part of the game that your build does well in. Once he goes back and gets a little bit of AP and has his ult, he goes nuts on top lane and destroys it, and pulls jungle attention to top for a good amount of time.

    Also, the playing a normal game doesn't really have anything to do with it. He is at a much higher skill than you and everyone else that posts here. For that matter, the person he was playing probably is too.

  12. #2912
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    You seem rather close-minded.

    What do you define as "competitive play"? Ranked SoloQ? Everything works in soloQ. Zekent, one of the current NA Challengers and one of the very first, reached that place by playing a lot (and read, a looooooooooooot) of AP Janna mid or top (and bot, by telling his bot-lane to 1v2 top while he 1v2 the enemy bottom lane) and Poppy, be it Top or Jungle. On reddit a bit ago there was an AMA of a person reaching Diamond (or challenger, can't remember) by playing only Fiddlesticks in every single position but adc; there was also a mention of a player reaching diamond by playing strictly AP Tryndamere.

    If by competitive play you mean tournament then you'd be right. But you're playing SoloQ, not LCS.

    What the people in this thread are trying to tell you is that you should be whining about the players being bad, not because someone plays something unconventional. Unconventional plays lead to discovers and discovers lead to new things, which leads to less stale meta.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Infighter View Post
    You seem rather close-minded.

    What do you define as "competitive play"? Ranked SoloQ? Everything works in soloQ. Zekent, one of the current NA Challengers and one of the very first, reached that place by playing a lot (and read, a looooooooooooot) of AP Janna mid or top (and bot, by telling his bot-lane to 1v2 top while he 1v2 the enemy bottom lane) and Poppy, be it Top or Jungle. On reddit a bit ago there was an AMA of a person reaching Diamond (or challenger, can't remember) by playing only Fiddlesticks in every single position but adc; there was also a mention of a player reaching diamond by playing strictly AP Tryndamere.

    If by competitive play you mean tournament then you'd be right. But you're playing SoloQ, not LCS.

    What the people in this thread are trying to tell you is that you should be whining about the players being bad, not because someone plays something unconventional. Unconventional plays lead to discovers and discovers lead to new things, which leads to less stale meta.
    And we have seen the unusual come out of competitive play. Things include Heimerdinger being used by GSG to win a tournament, SGS using Karma in a shield-based team composition, and CLG's L1nk showing the untapped power Syndra can put out. And all three of those won games.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isrozzis View Post
    Would you consider jungle ezreal a troll build? It's been used in tournaments before.

    The thing with gimmicky AP builds or whatever is that they have very specific things they do. AP trynd absolutely destroys lane as you can tell in the video. In most of the games if your lanes have gone at least somewhat even you have destroyed your lane so badly that the sheer gold advantage will carry you into the mid to late game.

    In super late game when gold has mostly equalized you will be less effective relative to everyone else. But that's not the point. The point is to exploit the part of the game that your build does well in. Once he goes back and gets a little bit of AP and has his ult, he goes nuts on top lane and destroys it, and pulls jungle attention to top for a good amount of time.

    Also, the playing a normal game doesn't really have anything to do with it. He is at a much higher skill than you and everyone else that posts here. For that matter, the person he was playing probably is too.
    This is more of a personal attack than an actual argument (because you are getting defensive)... so I'm just going to ignore it

    This is NOT competitive play... AT ALL. This is just not how competitive games go down. Which goes to my point that most of these videos/guides are claiming, which is that in a normal/low elo game its viable (meaning your opponents suck)

    In regards to your first point about jungle ezreal. Yes. I would. Because once again it is someone who viewed that tournament trying to recreate something beyond their expertise or skill level. In a normal game or solo queue. These niche roles are far less effective unless everyone is on board and understands what you are doing and why you are doing it (essentially communication). This communication is lost to most players in normals and low elo.

    So when you hop into a normal game to try out an unorthodox build, that ultimately fails, (no matter how good VoyBoy did) to the detriment of your team... your are trolling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins View Post
    This is more of a personal attack than an actual argument (because you are getting defensive)... so I'm just going to ignore it

    This is NOT competitive play... AT ALL. This is just not how competitive games go down. Which goes to my point that most of these videos/guides are claiming, which is that in a normal/low elo game its viable (meaning your opponents suck)

    In regards to your first point about jungle ezreal. Yes. I would. Because once again it is someone who viewed that tournament trying to recreate something beyond their expertise or skill level. In a normal game or solo queue. These niche roles are far less effective unless everyone is on board and understands what you are doing and why you are doing it (essentially communication). This communication is lost to most players in normals and low elo.

    So when you hop into a normal game to try out an unorthodox build, that ultimately fails, (no matter how good VoyBoy did) to the detriment of your team... your are trolling.
    What people that try to do that don't realize is that those teams planned for those strategies to begin with. In solo queue, in the AP Trynd case, this isn't the first time that it was used with success in solo queue. It's just that AP Trynd happens to work in solo queue, although we have yet to see how it would do in tournament play. The opposite proves true too, jungle Ez doesn't really translate to a successful strategy unless the player has a lot of practice with it and his/her teammates know how to build their team around and using him there. Also, in order for someone like this to get discovered, someone has to try it out in real-life situations, i.e. solo queue and normal games.

    On the meaning of trolling, it means to deliberately try to make your team lose, doing things that knowingly don't work, such as building AP on Garen. Picking Fiora would not be trolling at all, but a Fiora player building AP on her is. Since Evelynn (the only champion that was actually considered a troll pick due to how Riot intentionally nerfed her) was re-worked, there aren't any champions that are really considered troll picks, yes some are really undertuned, yes some are outclassed by others, and yes some of them just don't have a good spot in the current "meta". It doesn't mean at all that a certain pick is trolling at all.
    Last edited by Thallidomaniac; 2013-02-20 at 04:12 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thallidomaniac View Post
    And we have seen the unusual come out of competitive play. Things include Heimerdinger being used by GSG to win a tournament, SGS using Karma in a shield-based team composition, and CLG's L1nk showing the untapped power Syndra can put out. And all three of those won games.
    I am not saying things like this can't be pulled off because clearly they can. But these are practiced strategies from PRO players, who are playing constantly as a 5 person unit.

    When someone tries to recreate that without the knowledge of WHY, or how it worked in conjunction with the rest of the team, it comes off as trolling. Just because someone else can do it, and you've seen it done, doesn't mean you can or should. Sometimes its better to just stick to the boring tried and true method, especially when you are playing with people you haven't played with before.

    Hideo Nomo is one of my favorite pitchers of all time. He has a very unique style of pitching... that CLEARLY worked for him. However, there are BASIC mechanics to pitching. I can pitch decently using basic methods... and I suck trying to recreate the style of Nomo.

    Now how is the rest of my team going to feel when I all of a sudden start pitching trying to mimic Nomo and fail at it? "WTF dude just pitch normal!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins View Post
    I am not saying things like this can't be pulled off because clearly they can. But these are practiced strategies from PRO players, who are playing constantly as a 5 person unit.

    When someone tries to recreate that without the knowledge of WHY, or how it worked in conjunction with the rest of the team, it comes off as trolling. Just because someone else can do it, and you've seen it done, doesn't mean you can or should. Sometimes its better to just stick to the boring tried and true method, especially when you are playing with people you haven't played with before.

    Hideo Nomo is one of my favorite pitchers of all time. He has a very unique style of pitching... that CLEARLY worked for him. However, there are BASIC mechanics to pitching. I can pitch decently using basic methods... and I suck trying to recreate the style of Nomo.

    Now how is the rest of my team going to feel when I all of a sudden start pitching trying to mimic Nomo and fail at it? "WTF dude just pitch normal!"
    Players have to start somewhere to practice these new strategies to see if they work for them. Yes, trying it out for the first time in a Ranked game is not ideal at all, and yes those people do deserve to get ragged on for doing that. So that leaves normal games. And if people still rage at people for trying something new (assuming that it makes sense somewhat) in normals, where can they go to practice that? Bot games aren't a good place to actually practice new things in full, and people even rage at others for trying stuff there too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thallidomaniac View Post

    On the meaning of trolling,
    This is not the ONLY meaning of trolling. In the case that people are "affectionately" referring to in guides. The person being trolled is the opposing team (when the build is used successfully) when it isn't used unsuccessfully (especially when it results in a loss) it is seen as trolling by teammates because you deviate from the tried and true method (what works) and replaced with some wack build that they haven't seen before (which didn't work)

    Furthermore, and I'm really getting tired of repeating this. These people aren't even recreating the builds from what they have seen in tournament play or in sensationalized youtube videos. They see AP and build straight AP like a mage. Whereas a player like VoyBoy had a few different item builds in mind when he was making his item selection choices and was building based on a response to enemy play. Whereas these trolling players that I am referring to, are going to make a very standard and basic AP mage build regardless of how the enemy team plays, what would be effective in their current situation, or what is needed for their team.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 08:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Thallidomaniac View Post
    Players have to start somewhere to practice these new strategies to see if they work for them. Yes, trying it out for the first time in a Ranked game is not ideal at all, and yes those people do deserve to get ragged on for doing that. So that leaves normal games. And if people still rage at people for trying something new (assuming that it makes sense somewhat) in normals, where can they go to practice that? Bot games aren't a good place to actually practice new things in full, and people even rage at others for trying stuff there too.
    I find that dominion is a fine place to try out new builds. It may not be 100% reflection of how things would play out in a normal game, but it gives you and idea of its effectiveness. If you are trying out a new build and still contributing and you go 8/11 i'm not gonna jump down your throat because your build is retarded.

    I find that in dominion if you have 1 or even 2 players that are not pulling their weight that you can still pull of a win, or even have fun inspite of a loss. Whereas in a normal game when you are dependent on a person to fulfill their role and man their lane... if you are terrible at it because you are trying out a new build I am powerless to do anything about it. (and rarely is anyone ever willing to switch up lane placement)

    Also, your attitude really effects how I am going to respond. Its one thing to try out a build that just isn't working or even a new champion that you just suck with. But for you to have this sense of righteousness about it, when it just aint workin for ya, is ridiculous... and why... do you feel the need to go and feed on top of it. Ok so youre sucking with it and you don't get how its supposed to work, so hug your tower and farm and try not to get yourself killed and maybe the rest of us can pull you through. But for you then to force and feed and thereby beefing up the enemy on top of it... oh my god I just wanna cut you up and put you in a meat locker.

    But once again (and I'm repeating myself YET AGAIN) is this NOT the thread to complain about such players?

    I can tell you it ISN'T a thread to help these players, unless they are coming here to see what NOT to do.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 08:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Infighter View Post
    What the people in this thread are trying to tell you is that you should be whining about the players being bad, not because someone plays something unconventional. Unconventional plays lead to discovers and discovers lead to new things, which leads to less stale meta.
    Except when it DOESN'T work. Then it just leads to a loss. I'm all for people trying out new builds I do it quite frequently, but I do it in dominion where its ineffectiveness is minimized by my ability to support and ride the coat tails of others, and contribute by capping when it doesn't work.

    I just wish that when I'm counting on you to fulfill your role, that you weren't using the rest of the 4 people on your team as disposable test dummies.

    I mean come on, seriously. What the fuck do you want me to say... oh ya that looked like it should have worked on paper, maybe next time, at least you tried?

    No... why couldn't you just stick to the tried and true method that we were all counting on you to use. WE FEEL TROLLED!

    I am whining about players being bad. Why did it have to be MY game that you tried that out on? Especially when I look at your history and you've won the last 5 games, playing a "normal" build, with the same champion.

    Add me to your friends list, I'll 1v1 you and we can fuck around using whatever retarded build we can come up with, or we'll duo queue dominion, and when it sucks at least we can concentrate on capping.
    Last edited by A dot Ham; 2013-02-20 at 04:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins View Post
    I find that dominion is a fine place to try out new builds. It may not be 100% reflection of how things would play out in a normal game, but it gives you and idea of its effectiveness. If you are trying out a new build and still contributing and you go 8/11 i'm not gonna jump down your throat because your build is retarded.

    I find that in dominion if you have 1 or even 2 players that are not pulling their weight that you can still pull of a win, or even have fun inspite of a loss. Whereas in a normal game when you are dependent on a person to fulfill their role and man their lane... if you are terrible at it because you are trying out a new build I am powerless to do anything about it. (and rarely is anyone ever willing to switch up lane placement)
    So what you're saying is that it's ok to try questionable builds in dominion, but not in normals. From what you've said so far that is trolling. If player x happens to love dominion and plays almost exclusively dominion (there are lots that do) and player y comes in and builds something crazy, because it's just dominion, then he is depriving the other people their enjoyment for that game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isrozzis View Post
    So what you're saying is that it's ok to try questionable builds in dominion, but not in normals. From what you've said so far that is trolling. If player x happens to love dominion and plays almost exclusively dominion (there are lots that do) and player y comes in and builds something crazy, because it's just dominion, then he is depriving the other people their enjoyment for that game.
    Yes, and use your reading comprehension skills here for a second, because I gave my reason already, and I'm going to repeat it for you... again.

    You are far less dependent on someone to fulfill their "role" in dominion, than you are in a normal game.

    and your fail build, can still be somewhat effective if you are under a turret defending it from being capped, or even deterring people from it just because of your presence on the node.

    I don't think anyone here would disagree on that fact, and I am a little disappointed that a moderator, would get so worked up that you would make such a ridiculous response, purely in yet another attempt to nitpick and get personal because I have somehow offended you
    Last edited by A dot Ham; 2013-02-20 at 04:58 AM.

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